Longest Heritage Railway extension

[nuneatonmark]

Apologies if there is already a thread on this but I was wondering which was the current longest extension to a Heritage railway running length that was likely to happen in the next 2-5 years? Llangollen railway recently got to Corwen, but not aware of any other recent significant extensions or any due?

 

[Flying Phil]

The Great Central is going to be an 18 mile railway when the "Gap" is closed between the GCR and the GCR(N).
The "Gap" is about 600m and has 5 bridges and two embankments. They already have built a new bridge over the Midland Main Line, a new bridge over the A60 road and refurbished the Canal bridge (Grand Union). They hope to start building the two bridges over the factory car park and the "tip" road at the end of this year. Then there will be a 300m embankment and a 40m embankment left to build.

 

[Vespa]

Great Central bridging the gap project has the potential to make GCR the longest double tracked heritage railway in Britain.

This is also a potential review stream as TOCs test their trains on GCR tracks, longer tracks means more real world testing can take place.

 

[Flying Phil]

Whilst Vespa makes a good point, the actual gap project will not extend the 5 miles of double GCR track (Lbro to Rothley) as the MML bridge and factory flyover bridges are only single track. Also most of the GCR(N) is single track.
However, it is still the long term ambition of the GCR to extend the double track South from Rothley to Leicester North.

 

[nuneatonmark]

Thanks for your responses. Maybe I should have excluded the GCR as it's so well known. Seems to be taking a long time to complete though but it's a big job. Any others out there?

 

[Iskra]

The Churnet Valley have got various options for extensions, but their Leek one is under construction and not too far away.

However, extensions should be viewed with caution. Unless you’re linking a new town, or point of interest that people wish to travel to, you’re just increasing fixed costs and fuel costs without much justification for raising fares to match.

 

[williamn]

Rother Valley Railway linking up the Kent and East Sussex Railway with the mainline? Not sure of timeframe but they now have permission and funding in place I believe.

 

[James H]

Rother Valley Railway linking up the Kent and East Sussex Railway with the mainline? Not sure of timeframe but they now have permission and funding in place I believe.

The announcement was that the secretary of state was minded to grant the order - I don't think it's been issued yet. And even when it is, they still need to acquire the land from the farmers, whether by negotiation or compulsory purchase. So still a few more hurdles.

 

[Titfield]

The Churnet Valley have got various options for extensions, but their Leek one is under construction and not too far away.

However, extensions should be viewed with caution. Unless you’re linking a new town, or point of interest that people wish to travel to, you’re just increasing fixed costs and fuel costs without much justification for raising fares to match.

There are many issues with "longer heritage railway lines" including as you suggest that the additional costs are greater than the additional fares but also longer end to end runs usually mean a less frequent service which can disappoint the turn up customer - who wont want to wait 2 hours for the next service. More stations usually mean more volunteers required and a much greater estate of lineside fences and other structures to maintain. I think someone once said that the ideal heritage railway was about 7 miles long linking two points of interest as that enabled a reasonable service with one loco in steam to be provided, gave sufficient interest for passengers and had a real purpose which generated patronage.

 

[Trevor_Daburn]

The Transport & Works order on the Rother Valley Railway came into force on the 2nd Aug (According to their blog), but as mentioned, there is still much to do on this

 

[Taunton]

There are many issues with "longer heritage railway lines" including as you suggest that the additional costs are greater than the additional fares but also longer end to end runs usually mean a less frequent service which can disappoint the turn up customer - who wont want to wait 2 hours for the next service. More stations usually mean more volunteers required and a much greater estate of lineside fences and other structures to maintain. I think someone once said that the ideal heritage railway was about 7 miles long linking two points of interest as that enabled a reasonable service with one loco in steam to be provided, gave sufficient interest for passengers and had a real purpose which generated patronage.

This is absolutely what happened to the Bluebell, which received large numbers of visitors when it was Sheffield Park to Horsted Keynes, on summer weekends a turn-up-and -go service. Now it just seems too long and too infrequent.

 

[Enthusiast]

This is absolutely what happened to the Bluebell, which received large numbers of visitors when it was Sheffield Park to Horsted Keynes, on summer weekends a turn-up-and -go service. Now it just seems too long and too infrequent.

Indeed. The East Grinstead extension cost the Bluebell something in the order of £6m (most of which went on clearing the Imberhorne Tip). It's hard to imagine how they can ever hope to recover even a fraction of that courtesy of an extra mile or so of track. It has the ability to run a three train service comfortably but now its best effort is two trains at a frequency of 75 minutes. Outside of the school holidays it runs no services on Monday and Tuesday and on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday it might as well not bother. It runs two return trips from Sheffield Park to East Grinstead, three and a half hour apart. If you miss the first train from SP (10:45am) you have to wait until 2:15pm. The Sunday service is scarcely much better, with just one train making three return trips but still with a two and a half hour wait between trains.

I know that the pandemic had a serious effect on heritage railways' business. But I think railways like the Bluebell have overstretched themselves with expenditure on extensions and all it has achieved is a longer line but with a much reduced service.

 

[Amlag]

The West Somerset Railway having trains (not necessarily their own) between Taunton and Bishops Lydiard on a regular public timetabled basis is still a long held objective.

 

[alf]

The Transport & Works order on the Rother Valley Railway came into force on the 2nd Aug (According to their blog), but as mentioned, there is still much to do on this

I have just read the 2nd Aug order granting Rother Valley the powers they need.

I enormously admire what RV are setting out to do & the huge amount of time,skill & money they have dedicated so far.

By linking the line & Tenterden to the National Network they will generate extra business, specially in the first couple of years.
But after?

And the obligations, open ended, of the 2 Aug 2023 order are terrifying..they would turn me to jelly & I am not poor.

The river authorities, the National Road authorities, the power & other utilities appear to have a right to demand the railway builders pay what they determine for affecting their services during construction.
There is appeal to an arbitrator but as I say I greatly admire the RV Directors. They are my heroes but I would not get a good nights sleep from now until job done if I wore their shoes.

 

[Titfield]

The West Somerset Railway having trains (not necessarily their own) between Taunton and Bishops Lydiard on a regular public timetabled basis is still a long held objective.

Swanage Railway are struggling with the Wareham extension. Be careful what you wish for. The old adage small is beautiful should not be ignored. Will having mainline TOC interlopers on a heritage railway do more harm than good?

 

[37114]

GWSR intend to get to Honeybourne eventually to provide a connection with Network Rail, which will be useful for race day specials.

 

[DelW]

This is absolutely what happened to the Bluebell, which received large numbers of visitors when it was Sheffield Park to Horsted Keynes, on summer weekends a turn-up-and -go service. Now it just seems too long and too infrequent.

Indeed. The East Grinstead extension cost the Bluebell something in the order of £6m (most of which went on clearing the Imberhorne Tip). It's hard to imagine how they can ever hope to recover even a fraction of that courtesy of an extra mile or so of track. It has the ability to run a three train service comfortably but now its best effort is two trains at a frequency of 75 minutes. Outside of the school holidays it runs no services on Monday and Tuesday and on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday it might as well not bother. It runs two return trips from Sheffield Park to East Grinstead, three and a half hour apart. If you miss the first train from SP (10:45am) you have to wait until 2:15pm. The Sunday service is scarcely much better, with just one train making three return trips but still with a two and a half hour wait between trains.

I know that the pandemic had a serious effect on heritage railways' business. But I think railways like the Bluebell have overstretched themselves with expenditure on extensions and all it has achieved is a longer line but with a much reduced service.

Until the East Grinstead extension opened, the Bluebell was really only reachable by car, which meant it was inaccessible to a significant part of the potential market. Particularly in London, which is probably the source of a fair proportion of its visitors, there are plenty of people who either don't drive or who don't have access to a car.

 

[m79900]

The Ecclesbourne Valley line extended 6 miles from Idridgehay to Duffield in 2011.

 

[Titfield]

Until the East Grinstead extension opened, the Bluebell was really only reachable by car, which meant it was inaccessible to a significant part of the potential market. Particularly in London, which is probably the source of a fair proportion of its visitors, there are plenty of people who either don't drive or who don't have access to a car.

Yes but how many of those without a car will then use national rail to get to East Grinstead to visit the Bluebell? I am sure I have read somewhere that the numbers of visitors using National Rail to get to EG to visit the Bluebell has been disappointingly low. Likewise the number of visitors to the Swanage Railway using national rail to get to Wareham is annecdotally low. Swanage railway are very reticent about announcing numbers which usually can only have one meaning.

 

[Flying Phil]

Another line trying to extend is the narrow gauge Lynton and Barnstaple Railway in North Devon. I believe the narrow gauge Southwold Railway is also expanding.

 

[Falcon1200]

The Strathspey Railway still has ambitions to extend from Broomhill to Grantown-on-Spey, but this is a very expensive project, and I share the cost concerns, similar to those regarding the Bluebell Railway extending to East Grinstead. But presumably some of the £6 million spent on the latter consisted of donations, or unpaid volunteer time, so did not have to be recovered as such?

 

[D Williams]

Indeed. The East Grinstead extension cost the Bluebell something in the order of £6m (most of which went on clearing the Imberhorne Tip). It's hard to imagine how they can ever hope to recover even a fraction of that courtesy of an extra mile or so of track. It has the ability to run a three train service comfortably but now its best effort is two trains at a frequency of 75 minutes. Outside of the school holidays it runs no services on Monday and Tuesday and on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday it might as well not bother. It runs two return trips from Sheffield Park to East Grinstead, three and a half hour apart. If you miss the first train from SP (10:45am) you have to wait until 2:15pm. The Sunday service is scarcely much better, with just one train making three return trips but still with a two and a half hour wait between trains.

I know that the pandemic had a serious effect on heritage railways' business. But I think railways like the Bluebell have overstretched themselves with expenditure on extensions and all it has achieved is a longer line but with a much reduced service.

Post pandemic, fuel crisis etc. one or two ( Ffestiniog, North York Moors, there may be others) heritage railways have changed their business model to one of providing a "coach trip" rather than a traditional train service. Also there is encouragement towards booking in advance , often with significant discounts. Perhaps this is the thinking behind the twice-a-day service. Carrying train loads of fresh air doesn't gather any income. However, this must be a very boring day for the volunteer staff.

On the subject of extensions, on a recent visit to North Wales I gave a bit of thought as to whether I wanted to pay £124 for us to spend five hours on a narrow gauge train of the Welsh Highland. I didn't but the Tripadvisor reviews look good so perhaps another time. I wonder if the passengers being carried match the business case against which the line was rebuilt? A fine railway, perhaps John Prescott's greatest legacy, but will it be able to meet future maintenance costs when some of the track needs renewal? Many years ago the then General Manager of the West Somerset remarked that the railway was "ten miles too long" as a ticket price that would make it sustainable was unaffordable to most of the likely passengers. This chicken has come home to roost.

Another line trying to extend is the narrow gauge Lynton and Barnstaple Railway in North Devon. I believe the narrow gauge Southwold Railway is also expanding.

And if anyone thinks that extending a railway is easy take a look at this lot!

Lynton and Barnstaple - Operations and Development

If you are up against a known deadline and the clock is ticking very loudly, isn't it logical and urgent just to get on and do this? The GCR bridge...

www.national-preservation.com

 

[Vespa]

If ticket prices alone will not sustain the railway other review stream would need to be looked at, catering, shop, sponsorship, modern advertising on the railways in period style, every penny goes in the pot to maintain the railway.

 

[Taunton]

Many years ago the then General Manager of the West Somerset remarked that the railway was "ten miles too long" as a ticket price that would make it sustainable was unaffordable to most of the likely passengers. This chicken has come home to roost.

Indeed. On Somerset visits it's been many years since I did the full trip, more recently just Lydeard to Williton, and immediately back on the train we passed there, and that was only because there chanced to be a departure 15 minutes after we arrived. Otherwise it's a whole day for the family, too long, gets boring for them. It's not the cost but the time. Hardly anyone seems to think of this combination though.

 

[Titfield]

If ticket prices alone will not sustain the railway other review stream would need to be looked at, catering, shop, sponsorship, modern advertising on the railways in period style, every penny goes in the pot to maintain the railway.

Most heritage railways do this already with mixed success. Catering is quite a challenging business to run and if you can get volunteers to run it you are very fortunate indeed. Paid staff are increasingly expensive and difficult to recruit and retain especially if it is only seasonal posts being offered. The days of thousands of students looking for summer jobs seems to have passed. In some towns with heritage railways the strength of the competition for the catering pound is very high indeed for example Swanage which has two supermarkets a Greggs and countless cafes and fish and chip shops within a 5 minute walk of the station. Likewise running a shop can be quite challenging for similar reasons. Commercial sponsors have proven to be hard to come by as it is difficult to convince sponsors of what is in it for them. Likewise businesses advertising would question if advertising on a heritage railways would generate enough of a return on the cost of the adverts to make it worthwhile. You also refer to every penny going into the pot to maintain the railway. One issue tends to be the natural desire to spend money on restorations of locos and carriages but getting interest in raising money for track renewals and simple stuff like the cost of the paint and timber to maintain the hundreds of yards of lineside fencing is a much bigger task.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

The big disappointment is a widespread if not universal failure to learn from experience. Gricers tend to hanker after large motive power and longer runs. These are not necessarily the priorities of most passengers but still increase expense

 

[williamn]

Yes but how many of those without a car will then use national rail to get to East Grinstead to visit the Bluebell? I am sure I have read somewhere that the numbers of visitors using National Rail to get to EG to visit the Bluebell has been disappointingly low. Likewise the number of visitors to the Swanage Railway using national rail to get to Wareham is annecdotally low. Swanage railway are very reticent about announcing numbers which usually can only have one meaning.

As discussed elsewhere the poor connections between Bluebell and mainline trains don’t help.

 

[matt78]

Can only concur with what has been said about “over extending”. On my own railway we did a survey earlier this year and more than expected were happy with an 8 mile round trip. Extensions tend to have an initial “bounce” but then reality kicks in with the extra mileage and associated cost, with public interest waning slightly. To be honest carriage sheds and better visitor facilities should be a higher priority if not already in place.

 

[paul1609]

To be honest the ideal length of a heritage railway depends largely on your geographical location, the location of external attractions, and ultimately what you inherited and what authorities were prepared to allow you to operate and or build. The Isle of Wight Steam Railway is often mentioned as the perfect length with the central station, but there's no way we can replicate that on the Kent & East Sussex anywhere within the proposed 13 mile route and most other heritage railways are in that position.
To take the example of the West Somerset if is indeed too long which part should you abandon? Commercially I'd suggest it's almost certainly the Taunton end loosing the network rail connection.

 

[Trainfan344]

Once upon a time, the Wensleydale were dreaming of running a huge line, they seem to be struggling with their new extension to Northallerton let alone anything else.