December 2023 Timetable Change

[800001]

But the new fleet would have seen off the IC225s, so the carriages would have been the same? I know 225s can’t go to Middlesbrough, but the Azumas that would have to cover for them if they went off lease - and now don’t have to - can.

Not that I believe Middlesbrough justifies 1tp2h.

1tp2h to Bradford Forster Square could really threaten Grand Central. Mind you, seeing as they seem the much more expensive train to Doncaster, York and Wakefield than LNER and Hull Trains, I’m not necessarily complaining.

5 Mk4s diagrammed a day, the new fleet would of been at least 10.

They can only do extra Middlesbrough with additional Azuma if mk4 go.

 

[SargeNpton]

8 weeks.

As I said upthread, there is no plan to return to 12.

However there are plans to sell tickets much further out than 12, as LNER and CS already do.

ORR has refused Network Rail's request to move from T-12 to T-8...

Proposals to modify timetable publication in Network Rail’s licence | Office of Rail and Road

Initial consultation on proposals to modify Network Rail’s network licence requirement on timetable publication.

www.orr.gov.uk

The first modification proposed changing the requirement for Network Rail to provide train operators with timetable information 12 weeks in advance of train services running. The second modification proposed changing the definition of “Relevant Timetable Changes”. We also asked respondents for evidence of how finalising a timetable with less than 12 weeks’ notice would impact on planning journeys.

We have now published our decision letter which sets out:

• our decision not to proceed with the licence modifications at this time;

 

[LowLevel]

Rumour is the missing EMR Regional trains (except perhaps the weekdays Mansfields) (unit diagram on Crewe, Joint line and Liverpool) will return as the full fleet of 170s should finally be in place. 4 more trains to come (3 from Wales, 1 from GTR) with 2 still being recommissioned. Depot space is a big issue though.

 

[The Planner]

ORR has refused Network Rail's request to move from T-12 to T-8...

Proposals to modify timetable publication in Network Rail’s licence | Office of Rail and Road

Initial consultation on proposals to modify Network Rail’s network licence requirement on timetable publication.

www.orr.gov.uk

Yes, but we aren't at T-12 anyway now and haven't been since COVID, and we will likely stay in breach for the foreseeable/ever.

 

[Llandudno]

Rumour is the missing EMR Regional trains (except perhaps the weekdays Mansfields) (unit diagram on Crewe, Joint line and Liverpool) will return as the full fleet of 170s should finally be in place. 4 more trains to come (3 from Wales, 1 from GTR) with 2 still being recommissioned. Depot space is a big issue though.

That’s great news if it happens.

It seems most times I want to travel between Crewe and Derby my connecting trains always seem to coincide with the missing hour, and to make matters worse the pubs within the vicinity of Crewe station are dire!

The pubs at the Derby end are excellent though!

 

[Bald Rick]

ORR has refused Network Rail's request to move from T-12 to T-8...

Actually, they have decided not to approve it ‘at this time’. Work going on behind the scenes right now.

Besides, as @The Planner says, the industry hasn’t been at T-12 for almost all of the past 5 1/2 years. It has been at T-8 for the last 2. And that’s where it is staying For now.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Actually, they have decided not to approve it ‘at this time’. Work going on behind the scenes right now.

Besides, as @The Planner says, the industry hasn’t been at T-12 for almost all of the past 5 1/2 years. It has been at T-8 for the last 2. And that’s where it is staying For now.

ORR currently doesn’t think T-8 works for passengers or freight and requires more evidence before it would support a change to T-8 so the onus really is on Network Rail if it wants this to find that evidence especially with regard to freight wanting T-8.

So far all the focus seems to have been on opening reservations for passengers trains early, I don’t believe the same proposals have been made for freight to open bookings for their trains to their customers early.

 

[43055]

Rumour is the missing EMR Regional trains (except perhaps the weekdays Mansfields) (unit diagram on Crewe, Joint line and Liverpool) will return as the full fleet of 170s should finally be in place. 4 more trains to come (3 from Wales, 1 from GTR) with 2 still being recommissioned. Depot space is a big issue though.

That will be great news if true.

 

[infobleep]

It's a great idea - saw the draft timetable and I hope it gets approval. Only blight was big gap in late night service from Guildford to Redhill/Gatwick.

Also, Southern are retiming the Redhill to Tonbridge trains to reduce number of 3-car sets used daily from 3 to 2, this will mean a reduction in Peak services.

Can this be shared or was it just an internal document?

Shame about the big gap but maybe one day it can be plugged.

I will so love 2 trains an hour to Gatwick Airport, especially as most hours there is only one fast train from Guildford to Clapham Junction, which is another route to Gatwick Airport and beyond, if you change at Clapham Junction.

For retailing, 12 weeks ahead is both the LTP and STP target for reservations and for advance purchase tickets.; and has been for 20 years or more.

That LNER is being released this week is not just because they happen to be ahead of the game but was a deliberate action by the TOC.

Perhaps they have not so many trains running and/or employ enough staff compared to others to be able to do this so early.

 

[43096]

Actually, they have decided not to approve it ‘at this time’. Work going on behind the scenes right now.

Besides, as @The Planner says, the industry hasn’t been at T-12 for almost all of the past 5 1/2 years. It has been at T-8 for the last 2. And that’s where it is staying For now.

It is to be hoped that the regulator sticks to - and enforces - T-12. Because we all know what will happen if the T-8 change is agreed: it will become T-6 or T-4.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Any information available on changes to GTR (apart from changes on the Redhill to Tonbridge line) or SWR yet?

What they should be doing is reducing the services down to what the driver establishment can actually deliver without o/t or RDW as in all likelihood the current dispute wont be resolved anytime soon.

 

[infobleep]

ORR currently doesn’t think T-8 works for passengers or freight and requires more evidence before it would support a change to T-8 so the onus really is on Network Rail if it wants this to find that evidence especially with regard to freight wanting T-8.

So far all the focus seems to have been on opening reservations for passengers trains early, I don’t believe the same proposals have been made for freight to open bookings for their trains to their customers early.

But by allowing passenger reservations early, the timetable might then change.

This can happen in Germany but if it does then Deutsche Bahn allow you to then take any train as long as it's along the same route.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

But by allowing passenger reservations early, the timetable might then change.

This can happen in Germany but if it does then Deutsche Bahn allow you to then take any train as long as it's along the same route.

Yes but making this work for freight is a bit more challenging in the plan is subject to change and freight customers also like to be able to book their trains in advance with confidence.

 

[infobleep]

Yes but making this work for freight is a bit more challenging in the plan is subject to change and freight customers also like to be able to book their trains in advance with confidence.

I'm sure passengers also like to book in advance with confidence too but I do accept freight might be more conplicsted

 

[Some guy]

Hopefully the Euston-Birmingham-Glasgow/Edinburgh fully run all day and the 3 daily Blackpool Trent Valley services return

 

[Peter0124]

Hopefully the Euston-Birmingham-Glasgow/Edinburgh fully run all day and the 3 daily Blackpool Trent Valley services return

Just guessing but I reckon the missing Euston-Birmingham-Glasgow trains will be reinstated. Especially if they introduce the third hourly Eus-Bhm.

Would be good to have the 9M53 10:00 Glasgow-Euston via Bhm back. Absolutely not as a 5 car voyager though like pre-covid (It won't be one anyway).

 

[Some guy]

Just guessing but I reckon the missing Euston-Birmingham-Glasgow trains will be reinstated. Especially if they introduce the third hourly Eus-Bhm.

Would be good to have the 9M53 10:00 Glasgow-Euston via Bhm back. Absolutely not as a 5 car voyager though like pre-covid (It won't be one anyway).

I completely agree that service needs to return but as a pendolino. It was bonkers that ran all that way with 5 coaches.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Just guessing but I reckon the missing Euston-Birmingham-Glasgow trains will be reinstated. Especially if they introduce the third hourly Eus-Bhm.

Would be good to have the 9M53 10:00 Glasgow-Euston via Bhm back. Absolutely not as a 5 car voyager though like pre-covid (It won't be one anyway).

Avanti still way behind LNER in terms of traffic recovery so can't see DfT being persuaded that more services are needed.

 

[Bald Rick]

It is to be hoped that the regulator sticks to - and enforces - T-12. Because we all know what will happen if the T-8 change is agreed: it will become T-6 or T-4.

No, “we“ don’t all know this, simply because it’s not true. NR has no interest in working to shorter timescales than now.

It would be interesting to see what form enforcement would take.

 

[Minstral25]

Can this be shared or was it just an internal document?

Shame about the big gap but maybe one day it can be plugged.

I will so love 2 trains an hour to Gatwick Airport, especially as most hours there is only one fast train from Guildford to Clapham Junction, which is another route to Gatwick Airport and beyond, if you change at Clapham Junction.

Was shown in confidence so cannot post details other than to say its a good idea and it will mean almost clockface half-hourly at most major stations. It hadn't been approved by NR when I saw it so risk it may not happen. The Redhill to Gatwick has to be fixed clockface to fit in with GTR timetables every half hour. Hope we will see it in the December timetable

The gap in Guildford to Redhill from 10:15 to after midnight is caused because there is little stabling or crew based at the Redhill end, which stops them from running services past Guildford that can't get back to Reading (except the one that stables with a driver overnight which is the after midnight train). It is a real shame as it prevents people going for a Show/Gig in Guildford from getting home except by Car.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

No, “we“ don’t all know this, simply because it’s not true. NR has no interest in working to shorter timescales than now.

It would be interesting to see what form enforcement would take.

But it will because it has happened before. Having a shorter industry booking horizon encourages NR‘s engineering side to work to shorter planning timescales and emboldens them to make more demands for late engineering blocks. It is very much the start of a slippery downward slope. T-12 was there for more than just the train operators.

 

[The Planner]

But it will because it has happened before. Having a shorter industry booking horizon encourages NR‘s engineering side to work to shorter planning timescales and emboldens them to make more demands for late engineering blocks. It is very much the start of a slippery downward slope. T-12 was there for more than just the train operators.

But Network Code Part D is clearly on the TOC/FOC side for that, they just say no to it. If conversations at exec level between NR and TOCs facilitate the late block, then that is a fact of life that won't change, people at the sharp end just get told to deal with it. BTPF made no allowances or changes to engineering timescales anyway. The CPPP (confirmed period possession plan) still sits at T26.

 

[Class 170101]

It is to be hoped that the regulator sticks to - and enforces - T-12. Because we all know what will happen if the T-8 change is agreed: it will become T-6 or T-4.

No, “we“ don’t all know this, simply because it’s not true. NR has no interest in working to shorter timescales than now.

It would be interesting to see what form enforcement would take.

Whilst one cannot say for certain that T-12 down to T-8 could then be squeezed further as @43096 suggests I think below reply would sum up my concerns

But it will because it has happened before. Having a shorter industry booking horizon encourages NR‘s engineering side to work to shorter planning timescales and emboldens them to make more demands for late engineering blocks. It is very much the start of a slippery downward slope. T-12 was there for more than just the train operators.

NR unfortunately does have form for this and in some cases it cannot be avoided but in cases I'm afraid its just a poor show. As an industry it needs to be pushing out further from the day of the race not bring it closer. Why is it you can book a concert ticket for next summer, your flight, hotel etc almost (if not) now but not your train journey?

But Network Code Part D is clearly on the TOC/FOC side for that, they just say no to it. If conversations at exec level between NR and TOCs facilitate the late block, then that is a fact of life that won't change, people at the sharp end just get told to deal with it. BTPF made no allowances or changes to engineering timescales anyway. The CPPP (confirmed period possession plan) still sits at T26.

Is the CPPP comment actually correct? I've just got a nagging feeling in the back of my mind that this moved to the right by four weeks as well. (Happy to be corrected on this)

 

[The Planner]

Is the CPPP comment actually correct? I've just got a nagging feeling in the back of my mind that this moved to the right by four weeks as well. (Happy to be corrected on this)

Yes, CPPP is not moving.

 

[Bald Rick]

But it will because it has happened before. Having a shorter industry booking horizon encourages NR‘s engineering side to work to shorter planning timescales and emboldens them to make more demands for late engineering blocks. It is very much the start of a slippery downward slope. T-12 was there for more than just the train operators.

NR has never moved timescales inwards because it wants to. It has always been because of an external ‘crisis’ that has caused additional planning workload in the short term and T-12 is the thing that gives.

Late planned engineering work has always happened. Moving the timescale does not affect that.

 

[jamieintercity]

Is there any changes planned for scotrail?

 

[Peter0124]

Is there any changes planned for scotrail?

I don't know definite plans, however I think the Gourock line will go back to having a fast train per hour or two. It was silly to remove that.

Also there's still an hourly reduction on services in the evenings from covid. They should hopefully reinstate all of those. Ie the Neilston / Newton / East Kilbride routes are mostly hourly after 7-8pm Mon-Sat, but bizarrely normal on Sundays. And also the late Friday night trains from Glasgow Central I would hope to come back.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Was shown in confidence so cannot post details other than to say its a good idea and it will mean almost clockface half-hourly at most major stations. It hadn't been approved by NR when I saw it so risk it may not happen. The Redhill to Gatwick has to be fixed clockface to fit in with GTR timetables every half hour. Hope we will see it in the December timetable

The gap in Guildford to Redhill from 10:15 to after midnight is caused because there is little stabling or crew based at the Redhill end, which stops them from running services past Guildford that can't get back to Reading (except the one that stables with a driver overnight which is the after midnight train). It is a real shame as it prevents people going for a Show/Gig in Guildford from getting home except by Car.

Its sensible to provide 2TPH down to Gatwick but how much of a penalty on timings is this going to cause the service? It has already been slowed down for the 769's and connections at both Reading and Redhill have become worse.

 

[infobleep]

Its sensible to provide 2TPH down to Gatwick but how much of a penalty on timings is this going to cause the service? It has already been slowed down for the 769's and connections at both Reading and Redhill have become worse.

It should be sped up now the 769 is no longer in operation. I would value a slower service to get a direct train to Gatwick Airport more often. Rather than having to get to Redhill and have to change.

Take a journey from Guildford to Haywards Heath. I get the 17:11 from Guildford to Redhill. If I get this service, change at Redhill and Horley I will be in around 17:34 at Haywards Heath

If I get the 17:39 Guildford to Gatwick Airport and ignore the minimum connection times at Gatwick Airport, I can get into Haywards Heath around 18:44.

So departing 28 minutes later gets me in 10 minutes later.

A direct train to Gatwick Airport at 17:11 would save me time.

 

[takno]

It should be sped up now the 769 is no longer in operation. I would value a slower service to get a direct train to Gatwick Airport more often. Rather than having to get to Redhill and have to change.

Take a journey from Guildford to Haywards Heath. I get the 17:11 from Guildford to Redhill. If I get this service, change at Redhill and Horley I will be in around 17:34 at Haywards Heath

If I get the 17:39 Guildford to Gatwick Airport and ignore the minimum connection times at Gatwick Airport, I can get into Haywards Heath around 18:44.

So departing 28 minutes later gets me in 10 minutes later.

A direct train to Gatwick Airport at 17:11 would save me time.

That doesn't help a great deal if you're going to stations along the line including Redhill, or changing at Redhill for points north.