December 2023 Timetable Change

[Llandudno]

It is to be hoped that the regulator sticks to - and enforces - T-12. Because we all know what will happen if the T-8 change is agreed: it will become T-6 or T-4.

In reality in the north of England it’s T - 1 day!

Need to check timetables at 10pm the day before you intend to travel especially on Northern and TPE!

 

[infobleep]

That doesn't help a great deal if you're going to stations along the line including Redhill, or changing at Redhill for points north.

In what way doesn't it help if you are doing north of Redhill?

 

[JonathanH]

It has already been slowed down for the 769's and connections at both Reading and Redhill have become worse.

It has been pointed out above that times at the Gatwick end are effectively fixed so the timetable would become standardised at the east end - eg Reigate xx04 / xx34, Redhill xx08-xx12 / xx38-xx42, Gatwick xx20-xx30 / xx49-xx00, Redhill xx-38-xx44 / xx08-xx14, Reigate xx48 / xx18. Turbo timings for a semi-fast to Reading have traditionally been 60 minutes to / from Reigate, and 80 minutes for a slow, but each one now needs to stop five extra times, so probably looking at 72-75 minutes and slightly longer in the peaks when all stops between Wokingham and Ash need to be served on both sides of the hour. Something like xx22 and xx52 off Reading and xx30 and xx00 into Reading off peak? Seven unit cycle.

 

[Minstral25]

It has been pointed out above that times at the Gatwick end are effectively fixed so the timetable would become standardised at the east end - eg Reigate xx04 / xx34, Redhill xx08-xx12 / xx38-xx42, Gatwick xx20-xx30 / xx49-xx00, Redhill xx-38-xx44 / xx08-xx14, Reigate xx48 / xx18. Turbo timings for a semi-fast to Reading have traditionally been 60 minutes to / from Reigate, and 80 minutes for a slow, but each one now needs to stop five extra times, so probably looking at 72-75 minutes and slightly longer in the peaks when all stops between Wokingham and Ash need to be served on both sides of the hour. Something like xx22 and xx52 off Reading and xx30 and xx00 into Reading off peak? Seven unit cycle.

Fair assumptions & about right if the timetable happens. Key is larger stations have half hourly relatively even service and smaller ones (GLD-RDG) an hourly service.

Will be very useful from Redhill to South Coast as gives another half hourly option to Gatwick, taking services from 5 up to 6 per hour.

 

[PGAT]

Wait I haven’t been keeping up here, will the North Downs trains be alternating stopping at the smaller stations? (eg 1tph DPD, GOM, SFR, GLD and 1tph DPD, DKT, CHL, GLD)

 

[JonathanH]

Wait I haven’t been keeping up here, will the North Downs trains be alternating stopping at the smaller stations? (eg 1tph DPD, GOM, SFR, GLD and 1tph DPD, DKT, CHL, GLD)

The current arrangement with the stopper is
1tp2h Guildford, Shalford, Chilworth, Gomshall, Dorking Deepdene, Reigate, Redhill
1tp2h Guildford, Shalford, Dorking West, Dorking Deepdene, Betchworth, Reigate, Redhill

The indication is that
Wokingham, Blackwater, North Camp, Guildford, Dorking Deepdene and Reigate maintain 2tph
Crowthorne, Sandhurst, Farnborough North, Ash and Shalford maintain 1tph
Chilworth, Gomshall, Dorking West and Betchworth maintain 1tp2h.
with the stops shared out between the two hourly services in a logical structure (and extra stops as necessary in the peak).

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

It would be reasonable to expect that the service that makes the stops along the Blackwater Valley is then the faster train (calling Dorking Deepdene and Reigate only) between Guildford and Redhill. The semi-fast between Reading and Guildford is then the train that picks up Shalford and either Chilworth & Gomshall or Dorking West & Betchworth in addition to Deepdene and Reigate. This way you’ll end up with two very similar, if not identical end-to-end journey times between Reading and Gatwick. The Guildford stops will be slightly assymetrical each half hour but not by much I suspect. End to end journey times probably slightly slower than the current semi-fast, I’d estimate about 90 mins each way.

 

[OliverH68]

Well Dec '23 is being uploaded over the course of this week.

So far upstream are LNER, Lumo, Crossrail & Northern.

 

[hexagon789]

Well Dec '23 is being uploaded over the course of this week.

So far upstream are LNER, Lumo, Crossrail & Northern.

Wonder if that means most other operators are likely to appear this month or not...

 

[PGAT]

Is anything actually changing on the Elizabeth Line? I suspect not

 

[OliverH68]

Wonder if that means most other operators are likely to appear this month or not...

As mentioned, being uploaded over the course of the week.

Of course, there may be some odd gaps here & there but they will get filled in over time.

 

[moonarrow458]

Well Dec '23 is being uploaded over the course of this week.

So far upstream are LNER, Lumo, Crossrail & Northern.

By the looks of it the Parliamentary 0510 Liverpool Lime street to Ellesmere Port Is being shortened to start from Helsby. With the unit coming empty from Allerton Depot via Liverpool Lime street anyway. Seems an odd change to make, only disadvantaging customers for little benefit.

 

[Kite159]

By the looks of it the Parliamentary 0510 Liverpool Lime street to Ellesmere Port Is being shortened to start from Helsby. With the unit coming empty from Allerton Depot via Liverpool Lime street anyway. Seems an odd change to make, only disadvantaging customers for little benefit.

Looks like the ECS is going 'direct' via Runcorn rather than via Warrington. I would imagine most days that train carries fresh air, even when it runs.

Northern will need to be careful not to leave the Warrington - Liverpool side of the Earlestown triangle unserved by passenger trains, unless they are planning to bring back the Liverpool - Warrington BQ stoppers to give those stations between Huyton & Earlestown 2tph again

 

[moonarrow458]

Looks like the ECS is going 'direct' via Runcorn rather than via Warrington. I would imagine most days that train carries fresh air, even when it runs.

Northern will need to be careful not to leave the Warrington - Liverpool side of the Earlestown triangle unserved by passenger trains, unless they are planning to bring back the Liverpool - Warrington BQ stoppers to give those stations between Huyton & Earlestown 2tph again

Would Northern Crew even have route knowledge for the Halton Curve? I thought that was lost once TFW started up their Halton Curve services. Or is this ECS potentially being run to give them regular route knowledge of the Halton Curve?

I believe the evening service from Ellesmere Port is still scheduled to run to Liverpool via Warrington Bank Quay so they'd still serve that side of the Earlestown triangle. Admittedly a cut of 50% though.

 

[BJames]

Well Dec '23 is being uploaded over the course of this week.

So far upstream are LNER, Lumo, Crossrail & Northern.

And GC (maybe they'll have some functioning trains by this point...)

 

[A S Leib]

Wasn’t a 2-hourly Middlesbrough service on the original list along with 3tph to Leeds in some hours?

Would the third Leeds service have gone via Wakefield, or have there been advanced recent proposals for a King's Cross - Harrogate / Forster Square / Skipton service without reversing at Leeds?

 

[dk1]

Would the third Leeds service have gone via Wakefield, or have there been advanced recent proposals for a King's Cross - Harrogate / Forster Square / Skipton service without reversing at Leeds?

Most definitely via Wakefield same as the others. Would never be cost effective without including Leeds. I did like the once proposed ‘Horseshoe’ proposal by GNER for a service via Garforth & into Leeds from the East.

 

[Bald Rick]

Would the third Leeds service have gone via Wakefield, or have there been advanced recent proposals for a King's Cross - Harrogate / Forster Square / Skipton service without reversing at Leeds?

Never been a serious proposal to do that. The trains would be mostly empty.

 

[A S Leib]

Never been a serious proposal to do that. The trains would be mostly empty.

Does Wakefield really provide that much custom?

(I'm not sure if my previous post was clear enough; I mean going via Hambleton to Leeds, not skipping Leeds entirely.)

 

[Bald Rick]

Does Wakefield really provide that much custom?

(I'm not sure if my previous post was clear enough; I mean going via Hambleton to Leeds, not skipping Leeds entirely.)

Ah, sorry, thought you meant via Wakey.

 

[cle]

I will so love 2 trains an hour to Gatwick Airport, especially as most hours there is only one fast train from Guildford to Clapham Junction, which is another route to Gatwick Airport and beyond, if you change at Clapham Junction.

Surely it would be far quicker and less faff to go on one of the slower services via Cobham, Epsom or indeed a Woking slow if exist at the time you need? For Guildford - Gatwick (Redhill?) - CJ

Or do you mean Guildford-CJ-Gatwick! Both are lunacy, tbh.

 

[MikeWM]

While I guess the services uploaded may not yet be final, sad to see that the stations on the line through Rainhill still only have 1tph for most of the day. Is this 'permanent' now? It is clearly inadequate.

 

[Minstral25]

The current arrangement with the stopper is
1tp2h Guildford, Shalford, Chilworth, Gomshall, Dorking Deepdene, Reigate, Redhill
1tp2h Guildford, Shalford, Dorking West, Dorking Deepdene, Betchworth, Reigate, Redhill

The indication is that
Wokingham, Blackwater, North Camp, Guildford, Dorking Deepdene and Reigate maintain 2tph
Crowthorne, Sandhurst, Farnborough North, Ash and Shalford maintain 1tph
Chilworth, Gomshall, Dorking West and Betchworth maintain 1tp2h.
with the stops shared out between the two hourly services in a logical structure (and extra stops as necessary in the peak).

I think that is a good summary and all it needs is Network Rail to say yes. We shall see when Timetable is issued.

 

[Liverpool 507]

I've had a look for December 2023 for Northern and Airedale and Wharfedale line services still interwork together, rather than what has been proposed of 10 x 3 car 331s working Bradford - Skipton/Ilkley services alone. In the west, Liverpool - Manchester Airport services interwork with Wigan stoppers and the odd Blackpool North services, with further 4 car 331s working some late Blackpool - Manchester Airport services to get stock over presumably to work Alderley Edge services.

 

[infobleep]

Surely it would be far quicker and less faff to go on one of the slower services via Cobham, Epsom or indeed a Woking slow if exist at the time you need? For Guildford - Gatwick (Redhill?) - CJ

Or do you mean Guildford-CJ-Gatwick! Both are lunacy, tbh.

Yes, I do mean Guildford to Gatwick Airport changing at Clapham Junction.

To be fair I'm usually going to Hayward Heath.

However, if a train to Gatwick Airport is cancelled, going via Clapham Junction, if you do happen to have access to a fast train, might be quicker.

This evening I am travelling from Haywards Heath to Guildford via Clapham Junction. At the time I got to Gatwick Airport, going via Clapham Junction was going to be 4 minutes faster. That's nothing in time difference but it is still quicker.

 

[Peter0124]

XC, West Mids Trains, EMR and Caledonian Sleeper services now showing.

 

[PGAT]

GTR as well

 

[OliverH68]

Plus LO

 

[DDB]

XC looks like the Nottingham Birminghams are back but clearly more tweaking required as at the moment they are in twice with slightly different times.

EMR the Newark Uttoxeter looks like it is still missing one trip in each direction. No return of the Nottingham Mansfield Woodhouse either. I wonder if that means it is never coming back? I suspect so.

 

[dk1]

XC looks like the Nottingham Birminghams are back but clearly more tweaking required as at the moment they are in twice with slightly different times.

EMR the Newark Uttoxeter looks like it is still missing one trip in each direction. No return of the Nottingham Mansfield Woodhouse either. I wonder if that means it is never coming back? I suspect so.

Never say never. Things change all the time depending on economic recession/depression.

Might be a boom within a year or so.