Avanti platform staff bawling at passengers

[Bluejays]

I couldn't be a dispatcher, because I'm really unobservant. I never seem to notice the people over the yellow lines, riding bikes on platforms or smoking at the end of platform etc.

I'm sure that many of the 'shouty' platform staff would love to be similarly unobservant. Unfortunately they will have management and mystery shopper types checking up on them. If part of their job is 'managing the pti' then they have to do it or potentially end up in trouble with the boss

 

[Tractor2018]

But why Crewe of all places, where the actual danger is, as I said, pretty low? As I said, there are plenty of potentially far more dangerous stations in London (to say nothing of the Underground) where the railway doesn't take it upon itself to behave in this way.

I take your point. Although I've no reason to doubt you, it is anecdotal. So, some anecdotal thoughts of my own in response.

The dangers at Crewe in particular are very real, despite as you put it being lower in comparison to other sites. There's a pinch point on the platform between p9 and p6. Even a train calling at p6 in the up direction may be doing 30mph at that point. So although it's not a through train, the difference in outcome to a human body being caught by or going under a train stopping there is negligible, compared to a faster one.

Which leads me onto a wider point I've not really considered before, it's again anecdotal. Stations I'm regularly at, for work or leisure, vary in how pro active the staff are in this regard - just in my experience. Carlisle and Preston there's less, shall we say urgency, in this regard. Crewe and Milton Keynes there's more. IMO there's less pinch points for passengers at the first two, and more at the second two - in fact at MKC p6 it's a regular occurrence for linespeed, and around the stairs and lift there's not a lot of room there.

With that in mind, maybe staff at these locations either see the increased risk or have in fact seen the outcome first hand and that's reflected in their actions. All I can say is it must be stressful and sore on the throat shouting at people - so I'm sure it's not something they take pleasure from, or a niche hobby.

 

[Western Sunset]

Doubtless, some would have apoplexy here...

 

[warwickshire]

I've never had any problem with the staff at Euston, when I've used P1/2/3 the gates have been open and I've just walked onto the platform unquestioned.
And that's half an hour (if not more) before the train leaves.

Those platforms same here, however dare not tread onto platforms 13 to 16, when a certain member of network rail staff is on, complete with radio for back up, when on correct side of platform, he will have you moved back to the concourse, claiming in the rules staff can staff can still ask you to move no matter what, you should NOT be here, claiming reason wait on concourse until train arrives and red x means don't enter, also have had incidents with the cleaners on the buggies ie used to avanti train clean apparently hitting enthusiasts.
However the buggies use 1 to 3 also no issues there. Be warned this network rail individual security guy gets hypo, and patrols platforms 14 like a obsession if a 319 gets cancelled and is at platform 13 for some time, and especially between 1520 to 1600. When one is expected on platform 13 for the 1554 to Tring from London Euston. When platform 14 is empty, and gets quite a buzz from it. ALSO remember a month ago when on platform 13 and getting it there. He was down on
platform 14 like a mad itchy rash and by 1540 had sent back and stopped 4 enthusiasts from fiming and photo it in

 

[jon0844]

Doubtless, some would have apoplexy here...

Perhaps that's why they would never build anything like that today.

 

[Aviator88]

I would say from my experience the Army, can't comment on Prison Service I would imagine similar, we don't shout continuously and treat people like crap, it would be counterproductive, squaddies will only tune it out and passenger will do the same, the time for shouting is for orders or safety related warnings, no other time are for gratuitous shouting, you lose control if you do.

Forget all these Army films full of shouting, it's not factual.

Agreed - I have to say, I've only ever experienced top communication skills, non-judgmentalism and sound reasoning from ex military types.

 

[TUC]

Visiting Crewe seems to be a favourite for ORR staff/nuisances. They insisted on 2 person dispatch for all Pendolinos, and keeping people back essential, especially given the absence of tactile paving and high passenger footfall.

Tactile paving is important, but if it is absent then shouting at you doesn't make you magically able to see the yellow line. The answer is to install tactile paving.

 

[stephen rp]

I think I only ever shouted for two reasons at people when I was working on gates/stations. The first was people pretending to shove each other in front of an approaching train, and the other was interfering with escalators/deliberately running up/down the wrong one etc etc. Basically, it was done when there was an obvious risk to safety.

Screaming at people for daring to have a toe over a yellow (or red, in the case of Picc P13/P14) line just makes for a hostile atmosphere and increases the risk of confrontation. I got shouted at enough by ticketless passengers, drunks, and then just about everyone when the service fell over. I didn't have the energy to start making arguments of my own. Naturally, some were a little more enthusiastic, but it was those that would come to grief more often and end up in silly arguments or risking assaults.

As a passenger now, I tend to ignore anyone who's obviously screaming for the sake of screaming. Trying to dispatch a train, yes, you want people out of the way, but a foot over the line on an empty platform or trying to get past a blockage/object/person in the way isn't a reason to be unpleasant.

Sometimes at Piccadilly 14 (and Oxford Road 2), if people didn't walk outside the line to get to the far end of the platform no-one would get off the stairs onto the platform. It's either go outside the line or push people out of the way.

 

[father_jack]

To save on cost- masked as covid mitigation- some TOCs have banned despatchers and guards using the humble whistle.....

 

[AverageJoe]

Heaven forbid - London Bridge, Clapham Junction, East Croydon to name a few, close the stations immediately! We can't have people walking down a platform whilst a train arrives or departs, clearly.

What a load of utter tripe some of the comments in this thread are.

Total crap.

Im assuming you don’t work on the rail but one of the most dangerous parts of the job is platform train interface.

Large parts of training are focused around that and it’s where most incidents occur. On my training course we discussed a few fatalities that happened on platforms with slow moving train’s approaching or leaving the platform. More often than not these are not suicides, just normal people stumbling, tripping, being accidentally shoved or drunk.

So yes people can of course walk down a platform when there is a train nearby but staying behind the yellow line is always recommended and especially so when there is large groups. So I understand why platform staff can get a bit tetchy when they see a potential for accidents and people are not responding to instruction which is ultimately for their protection.

 

[dk1]

We should sit some of these new age platform staff down and make them watch footage of the 70s & 80s with slam door stock & no CDL in sight. Would be like horror night to them lol.

 

[D1537]

I've seen the staff at Rugby shout at people when there's a stationary Freightliner in Platform 6. Perhaps they thought the pax would mistake it for the 8.32 to Euston.

I completely understand them doing it on Platform 4 because southbound non-stoppers go belting through there, but they'll then go and do the same on Platform 2 when a Trent Valley stopper arrives. It's weird.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Seeing the idiots at stations daily, I think shouting at them is probably the best way to get their attention especially when the dispatcher is quite far away. People wander around in their own little world and have no clue what’s around them.. heads down
Looking at their phones.. earphones in.. on a phone call.. it’s the best way to get their attention immediately. Next time, maybe they’ll pay more attention to what they are doing and remember when they got shouted last time!

This is nonsense. If they are headdown and earphones in shouting at them won't achieve anything. And makes everyone less inclined to pay any attention whatsoever.

I was travelling around on GWR for a few days, and without exception every station was announced (either auto or manually) as having a larger than usual gap. It simply can't be possible for every station to have a larger than usual gap, so everyone simply ignores it.

The railway really needs to get a proper grip on safety. When something goes wrong and their defence is "we shout and scream at everyone" it really won't stand up. This whole thing just makes a mockery of safety and people less inclined to listen and thus increasing risks.

Add in the scrums when platforms are announced very late there's going to be injuries in the stampede one day, but the railways are stuck in their ways that it's safer than having people queuing orderly.

 

[800001]

To save on cost- masked as covid mitigation- some TOCs have banned despatchers and guards using the humble whistle.....

How does cost come into when they now use the battery operated hand held ‘whistles’.

And I believe it is personal choice for those people to continue using them rather than a traditional whistle.

 

[stuu]

This seems to be a uniquely UK thing. Why is that? No one has ever shouted at me in France or Germany, in fact I don't think I have even seen despatch staff anywhere besides the normal train crew.

The most bizarre is the need for all the shouty people on the Elizabeth Line, given it has PSDs and (theoretically) very good information at every door. How do people make it to the station in the first place if they need such a detailed level of instructions?

 

[j2002]

I was just thinking about platform staff shouting at passengers this morning. I'm travelling by train around France at the moment and there is a very noticeable difference in the approach to risk on the railway.

To me, the shouting is a symptom of the attitude in the UK of avoiding risk as much as possible - platform edges, slam doors, crossing the line etc. Rightly or wrongly, there appears to be a need to protect people from danger at all costs.

Whereas in France, I've seen a lot more risk - trains with different door locks, track crossings at busy stations etc etc etc. The responsibility seems to be much more down to the individual to behave safely and make sensible choices. I haven't seen anyone fall out of a moving train...

Those are my thoughts and I'm not trying to comment on who is right or wrong, just making my observations.

 

[stephen rp]

Just for context, how many passengers are injured (excluding suicides) by being hit by a train?

Someone mentioned slam door stock. There was a spate of deaths on the WCML in the 70s of people falling out of moving trains - yet no sign of doors being opened. Locking of doors was introduced soon after.

 

[Bow Fell]

I’ll sum this up:

Management and Senior Management have KPI’s to achieve set by those even higher up within the company when it comes to accidents.

This results in unfair and unnecessary pressure on frontline staff. If KPI’s are achieved then management get a “bonus” so an obvious financial incentive, if they don’t hit targets it puts their job at risk as well as they moved on elsewhere or are forced out. It’s worth pointing out that frontline staff don’t get a penny from this bonus.

I don’t agree with some of the shouting, I’ve witnessed it, and it can be over the top but I understand why.

Now, let’s say someone does fall on the track and injures themselves, an accident form will be completed and a subsequent investigation completed by management. The first thing that will be looked at is CCTV, did the staff member make any interventions before the accident?

What if the passenger decides to make a claim or take the matter to court, despite it being their own fault of course. This poor frontline employee is now the subject of an investigation.

You can now see why, that even though I agree it’s unnecessary at times, that this shouting occurs.

 

[uglymonkey]

Heaven forbid - London Bridge, Clapham Junction, East Croydon to name a few, close the stations immediately! We can't have people walking down a platform whilst a train arrives or departs, clearly.

What a load of utter tripe some of the comments in this thread are.

Total crap.

Indeed, I've seen people "brushed" by trains as they come in (platform 5 - to Cambridge?) as the platform is so narrow and busy on occasion.

 

[800001]

Unfortunately until we move from been a country where people jump straight to compo claims for anything and everything (even when it’s their own fault),where every one else is to blame. Then I think we are stuck with dispatchers raising their voices to get people too move back.

 

[Jim the Jim]

The railway have long made it clear that aggressive behaviour from passengers toward staff will be met with prosecution. Some people may deserve a reminder that the law can work the other way round too.

 

[AlterEgo]

This seems to be a uniquely UK thing. Why is that? No one has ever shouted at me in France or Germany, in fact I don't think I have even seen despatch staff anywhere besides the normal train crew.

Britain is addicted to managerialism. The average Brit expects "adults in the room" in government and for other people to watch out for their safety at all times. Every problem is the government's or some other authority's to sort, with everyday interactions reduced to a simulacrum of a computer game, with little to no consequences for the individual.

 

[stephen rp]

I’ll sum this up:

Management and Senior Management have KPI’s to achieve set by those even higher up within the company when it comes to accidents.

This results in unfair and unnecessary pressure on frontline staff. If KPI’s are achieved then management get a “bonus” so an obvious financial incentive, if they don’t hit targets it puts their job at risk as well as they moved on elsewhere or are forced out. It’s worth pointing out that frontline staff don’t get a penny from this bonus.

I don’t agree with some of the shouting, I’ve witnessed it, and it can be over the top but I understand why.

Now, let’s say someone does fall on the track and injures themselves, an accident form will be completed and a subsequent investigation completed by management. The first thing that will be looked at is CCTV, did the staff member make any interventions before the accident?

What if the passenger decides to make a claim or take the matter to court, despite it being their own fault of course. This poor frontline employee is now the subject of an investigation.

You can now see why, that even though I agree it’s unnecessary at times, that this shouting occurs.

KPIs for passenger injury?

How many claims are there for trips and slips on wet platforms and steps compared to being hit by a train?

 

[Rover77]

But most of the shouting I witnessed last night wasn't when a train was being despatched; it was at times when there were no trains anywhere in sight and none were scheduled for a considerable time.

The public are not making conscious decisions along the lines if " there is no train due for 7 mins so I will stand here for 5 then move to a position of safety." If other people see staff not challenging those standing next to platform edge they will conclude its fine to do it.

 

[Turtle]

The public are not making conscious decisions along the lines if " there is no train due for 7 mins so I will stand here for 5 then move to a position of safety." If other people see staff not challenging those standing next to platform edge they will conclude its fine to do it.

Not necessarily. Some of us possess common sense and a self preservation faculty!

 

[richfoz84]

This is nonsense. If they are headdown and earphones in shouting at them won't achieve anything. And makes everyone less inclined to pay any attention whatsoever.

I was travelling around on GWR for a few days, and without exception every station was announced (either auto or manually) as having a larger than usual gap. It simply can't be possible for every station to have a larger than usual gap, so everyone simply ignores it.

The railway really needs to get a proper grip on safety. When something goes wrong and their defence is "we shout and scream at everyone" it really won't stand up. This whole thing just makes a mockery of safety and people less inclined to listen and thus increasing risks.

Add in the scrums when platforms are announced very late there's going to be injuries in the stampede one day, but the railways are stuck in their ways that it's safer than having people queuing orderly.

That’s your opinion and you’re obviously entitled to it. I work on the railway and the shouting doesn’t happen every 5 minutes! But it does happen to get someone’s attention quickly and I assume will continue to do so, whilst people are not adhering to rules or not keeping themselves safe whilst waiting for trains.

 

[DarloRich]

Have any posters here taken this issue up directly with Avanti? It could be that instructions from HQ to make sure passengers don't encroach on the dispatch corridor have led to unintended consequences. Personally it seems a none issue but each to thier own

 

[Krokodil]

The railway have long made it clear that aggressive behaviour from passengers toward staff will be met with prosecution. Some people may deserve a reminder that the law can work the other way round too.

Don't be ridiculous. There is no chance that someone instructing you to "stand back" is in the slightest way foul of the Public Order Act.

The sort of passengers who do get POA charges are the sort who 'kick off'.

 

[DarloRich]

I’ll sum this up:

Management and Senior Management have KPI’s to achieve set by those even higher up within the company when it comes to accidents.

This results in unfair and unnecessary pressure on frontline staff. If KPI’s are achieved then management get a “bonus” so an obvious financial incentive, if they don’t hit targets it puts their job at risk as well as they moved on elsewhere or are forced out. It’s worth pointing out that frontline staff don’t get a penny from this bonus.

I don’t agree with some of the shouting, I’ve witnessed it, and it can be over the top but I understand why.

Now, let’s say someone does fall on the track and injures themselves, an accident form will be completed and a subsequent investigation completed by management. The first thing that will be looked at is CCTV, did the staff member make any interventions before the accident?

What if the passenger decides to make a claim or take the matter to court, despite it being their own fault of course. This poor frontline employee is now the subject of an investigation.

You can now see why, that even though I agree it’s unnecessary at times, that this shouting occurs.

I agree. insert thumbs up icon!

 

[Rover77]

Not necessarily. Some of us possess common sense and a self preservation faculty!

Absolutely. The problem is many people don't and staff can't differentiate between two.
Ultimately its not very pleasant to be shouted at it can embararras some people. But if it creates a strong memorable response in someone they are much less likely to put themselves in that position again.