TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

[EZJ]

Disappointing if true.

Yes heard rumblings today in work that it will be announced in the MD's weekly video. I'm quite disappointed by it too.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Yes heard rumblings today in work that it will be announced in the MD's weekly video. I'm quite disappointed by it too.

Is the video released publicly?

 

[EZJ]

Is the video released publicly?

No, it's a weekly staff update, released internally.

 

[pennine]

Are they going ti be solely used for Scarborough to York, or any chance of some venturing to Saltburn?

 

[43102EMR]

Are they going ti be solely used for Scarborough to York, or any chance of some venturing to Saltburn?

From the sounds of what’s being said above, looks like they’ll be withdrawn completely. Currently only used on the Scarborough route, with very few diagrams to Piccadilly.

 

[Peter Sarf]

TPE have already told "stakeholders" that the Nova sets will be deployed on North Pennine rather than South Pennine services.

They are currently only used on the Scarborough route. That is old news I am afraid.

Are they going ti be solely used for Scarborough to York, or any chance of some venturing to Saltburn?

They are currently only used on the Scarborough route. Saltburn was ruled out ages ago.

Reading what others are saying it seems the announcement coming this week is expected to say the 68s+Mk5s will be used NOWHERE from December.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

68/Mk5 announcement due this week. My information is that you should get you rides in before December.

Disappointing if true.

From the sounds of what’s being said above, looks like they’ll be withdrawn completely.

Reading what others are saying it seems the announcement coming this week is expected to say the 68s+Mk5s will be used NOWHERE from December.

Not one bit surprised.
They’re barely used as it is anyway. If the DfT are going to force XC and GWR to part with their clunky funky locos when they are worked hard, then of course they’ll wipe them from a TOC sending 14% of them out a day on shuttles and the odd through service.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Obviously this chat is all pre-emptive but assuming the mk5s are to go, this seems like TPE have gone with the ‘easiest’ option since logic would have retained the mk5s and off-leased the 185s since they’re more likely to replace older stock elsewhere on the network.
Like @TT-ONR-NRN said above, I’m not surprised, just about every TOC has been squeezed.

 

[BoroAndy]

So what is the replacement? 3 car 185s on Scarborough in summer is just mass dangerous overcrowding again. Or will Northern think about running on the line again?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So what is the replacement? 3 car 185s on Scarborough in summer is just mass dangerous overcrowding again. Or will Northern think about running on the line again?

The discussion on the Dec thread suggests that there will be quite deep service cuts to something more resembling the mid 2000s timetable, which will mean there would likely be enough units between the 397s, 802s and double 185s for everything.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

So what is the replacement? 3 car 185s on Scarborough in summer is just mass dangerous overcrowding again. Or will Northern think about running on the line again?

We're talking about the DfT.

There will be no replacement; it will be the three car 185s and they clearly won't allow Northern to expand onto that line either because it will require additional resources.

 

[Killingworth]

3 car 185 on many South Pennine services has been normal for years. 6 was supposed to be standard as we entered 2020 and loadings were buulding well to need them. Thanks to Covid and then the total unreliability of TPE services that growing market has been massively impacted.

The current random provision of 6, 3 or 0 car trains has pushed users to work from home, cars and other TOCs where services are avaliable.

A regular and reliable 5 car Nova 3 would have been fine (apart from the noise). Such is progress.

 

[coxxy]

No great suprise.
They have had their issues but the biggest mistake here has been the way control staff and senior management have reacted to them.

Theyve cost too much because they insist on freightliner/ROG moving trains round despite having their own staff sat crying out to get more time driving them.

Training has always been as minimal as possible so people have quite rightly been falling out of competence.

The amount of confusion and lack of knowledge from the powers that be have ruined any chance of seeing a decent reliable service with 68's/mk5, nothing else.

Passengers and staff will be sorry to see them go. But its yet another fine example of TPE's mis management I'm afraid.

 

[43102EMR]

No great suprise.
They have had their issues but the biggest mistake here has been the way control staff and senior management have reacted to them.

Theyve cost too much because they insist on freightliner/ROG moving trains round despite having their own staff sat crying out to get more time driving them.

Training has always been as minimal as possible so people have quite rightly been falling out of competence.

The amount of confusion and lack of knowledge from the powers that be have ruined any chance of seeing a decent reliable service with 68's/mk5, nothing else.

Passengers and staff will be sorry to see them go. But its yet another fine example of TPE's mis management I'm afraid.

The DfT too in this case - this would have been an opportunity to turn the page and actually get crew trained on them, but as others mentioned above they just took the easy way out…

 

[RealTrains07]

Its a shame cause if the Nova 3 sets do go, perfect opportunity to order additional 802 sets but DfT aint gonna let that happen

 

[coxxy]

The DfT too in this case - this would have been an opportunity to turn the page and actually get crew trained on them, but as others mentioned above they just took the easy way out…

Exactly!

 

[Peter Sarf]

Not one bit surprised.
They’re barely used as it is anyway. If the DfT are going to force XC and GWR to part with their clunky funky locos when they are worked hard, then of course they’ll wipe them from a TOC sending 14% of them out a day on shuttles and the odd through service.

Yes the signs have been there for ages and ages. Always looked like TPE were less committed to the 68s+Mk5s as they were to 185s and the also new 397s and 802s. The lease for the 68s + Mk5s was finishing next year (2024) so were always going to be the easy option if having to cut back.

No great suprise.
They have had their issues but the biggest mistake here has been the way control staff and senior management have reacted to them.

Theyve cost too much because they insist on freightliner/ROG moving trains round despite having their own staff sat crying out to get more time driving them.

Training has always been as minimal as possible so people have quite rightly been falling out of competence.

The amount of confusion and lack of knowledge from the powers that be have ruined any chance of seeing a decent reliable service with 68's/mk5, nothing else.

Passengers and staff will be sorry to see them go. But its yet another fine example of TPE's mis management I'm afraid.

No the final straw will be down to the dead hand of DfT. They simply want TOCs to cut costs, regardless of demand. When demand has declined the micro fleets will be the expendable things.

 

[CAF397]

That will leave TPE with 19 trains out of 70 operating on the East-West route with 25kV provision.

For a route that's slowly getting electrified, that's a pitiful amount of trains that can use the new wires.

Hopefully the Mk5a's and 68s will be seen as a sacrificial lamb to get a new order of 802s.

 

[JonathanH]

That will leave TPE with 19 trains out of 70 operating on the East-West route with 25kV provision.

Isn't that better than 19 trains out of 83?

 

[Ianigsy]

I thought that part of the argument for the Mark 5s was that in the long run they could work with an electric rather than the 68s. The 185s are also entering the second half of their design lives.

But if it hasn’t been the locos, it’s been the stock, and if it hasn’t been the stock it’s been the staffing…..

 

[JonathanH]

I thought that part of the argument for the Mark 5s was that in the long run they could work with an electric rather than the 68s.

They still could, of course, if there is ever continuous electrification. There isn't yet a suitable bi-mode locomotive to deal adequately with discontinuous electrification.

 

[KevL]

what about the 93?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Grand Union wanted MK4s, close enough

 

[800001]

No great suprise.
They have had their issues but the biggest mistake here has been the way control staff and senior management have reacted to them.

Theyve cost too much because they insist on freightliner/ROG moving trains round despite having their own staff sat crying out to get more time driving them.

Training has always been as minimal as possible so people have quite rightly been falling out of competence.

The amount of confusion and lack of knowledge from the powers that be have ruined any chance of seeing a decent reliable service with 68's/mk5, nothing else.

Passengers and staff will be sorry to see them go. But its yet another fine example of TPE's mis management I'm afraid.

Why blame control staff?
They don’t decide what happens with the fleet!
They don’t decide what routes they operate!
They don’t decide which depots sign them!

Control work with what they get given/told to do my higher up, the planning departments etc!

 

[cactustwirly]

Who is the lease company for these? Surely they will be disappointed they've funded Mark 5s without a payback?

 

[CAF397]

Why blame control staff?
They don’t decide what happens with the fleet!
They don’t decide what routes they operate!
They don’t decide which depots sign them!

Control work with what they get given/told to do my higher up, the planning departments etc!

When the service was managed by P-Coding the night before, no attempt was made to get diagrams off depot later. So if the driver was uncovered who should get a Mk5 set off Longsight, the set usually stayed out of action.

This meant the drivers later on in the day didn't get to drive the Mk5 fleet and may have resulted in competence refreshes being put in, or just general experience driving them and dealing with any issues.

There were drivers sat spare who signed the traction and depots who could have brought a set off depot later, but these services were either cancelled or replaced with 185s.

Any glitch on them, apart from the most severe, can easily be sorted by a full reset. But time and time again the decision was taken by Control to cancel the service and take the set back to depot.

The fuelling mistakes made at Scarborough (before the depot
was reopened) where sets were left out on the wrong diagram resulting in it not having enough fuel to get back to Longsight. That meant it had to be rescued by Freightliner/ROG and dragged back. This happened more than a few times for it to have been accidental.

So, control staff are not getting the blame here, but on the day management of the fleet (which is what they do) could have been more proactive.

 

[JonathanH]

Who is the lease company for these? Surely they will be disappointed they've funded Mark 5s without a payback?

Beacon Rail. The nature of rail leasing means that their investors run the risk of their fleets not being needed, just like companies who lease anything else.

 

[DanNCL]

Why blame control staff?
They don’t decide what happens with the fleet!
They don’t decide what routes they operate!
They don’t decide which depots sign them!

Control work with what they get given/told to do my higher up, the planning departments etc!

In the very specific case of TPE some of the blame can be directed at control. TPE’s seemingly default option to any sort of disruption is to automatically cancel everything, even where the line is open with capacity, and there’s both train and crew in place ready to run the service.

It’s especially noticeable between York and Newcastle where the default is to cancel everything and dump everyone onto LNER. TPE not having the slightest bit of concern about how passengers for the two stations not served by LNER (Thirsk and Chester le Street) are supposed to get to where they’re going, they’ve dumped it onto LNER and cease to consider it to be their problem. The end result increasingly often being LNER station staff arranging taxis for passengers themselves.
It doesn’t help when control send one message to the social media team and something completely different to station staff, as happens regularly with TPE, as it leads to station staff either not knowing about what’s happening at all or in some cases finding out what’s happening from the passengers showing them on Twitter.
Control might not be the root cause of TPE’s issues but they’re certainly not helping things.

It’s a very stark contrast to the likes of LNER where it’s noticeable that control will do anything they can to keep services running, regardless Network Rail, the DFT or the Great British weather throws at them.

 

[coxxy]

Why blame control staff?
They don’t decide what happens with the fleet!
They don’t decide what routes they operate!
They don’t decide which depots sign them!

Control work with what they get given/told to do my higher up, the planning departments etc!

Our control staff don't control anything. They sit back and watch the train plan fall to s*** on a daily basis with no input from them to try and change anything. I have personally rang them on numerous occasions to suggest ways of reinstating trains, only to be told "well we've already cancelled it now".

I know the majority of issues fall down to planning, we all know that. but day to day, control are useless. If you'd ever rang our control about a simple (and I mean simple) mk5 fault, you'd understand exactly where I'm coming from.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Our control staff don't control anything. They sit back and watch the train plan fall to s*** on a daily basis with no input from them to try and change anything. I have personally rang them on numerous occasions to suggest ways of reinstating trains, only to be told "well we've already cancelled it now".

I know the majority of issues fall down to planning, we all know that. but day to day, control are useless. If you'd ever rang our control about a simple (and I mean simple) mk5 fault, you'd understand exactly where I'm coming from.

The old advice on the railway is don’t critique how other colleagues try and execute their role unless you have tried to do it yourself. There is often more to a role and who pulls the strings than meets the eye.