TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

[43102EMR]

That’s not actually true, they are instead retaining the 22 x 185 which should have gone off lease.



Class 185s will be retained to replace the mk5 sets. 22 x 3 car sets retained which is 66 vehicles to replace 65 x mk5 vehicles so basically a like for like replacement.

Most of which will be running around as 3 car units for the majority of the time…

7 of these were to be retained regardless of the Nova 3 withdrawal as part of the TPRU works - that left 15 to be withdrawn, which is 45 carriages. Let’s face it - TPE’s a mess, and this is a prime example of that.

Do you want to throw a strop elsewhere perhaps, as this is really, really irrelevant.

With regards to the MK5 withdrawals, yes the DfT budget cuts have hit hard but this particular example is so very different to Southern 455s, XC and GWR HSTs, etc etc. Transpennine Express have had these sets sat round doing absolutely jack all for four years. Now that it’s nationalised, too right it should be stopped!

Nationalisation was the right time to turn the page and get crew training back up to speed with them - but the DfT chose the easy way out and just binned them. Another prime example of where they want to take the railways in this country.

 

[Future]

From what I have heard, the Mk5As are staying with TPE and they are looking for new locos to run the sets with

 

[HamworthyGoods]

From what I have heard, the Mk5As are staying with TPE and they are looking for new locos to run the sets with

No, TPE have confirmed today the 68s and mk5s will be stepped down from the December timetable change and stored until the lease ends in Spring 2024 and they can be returned to the lessors.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

From what I have heard, the Mk5As are staying with TPE and they are looking for new locos to run the sets with

The Interim Managing Director, in a video address to the staff today, said that they will be withdrawn and stored and there are no plans to use them in the current rolling stock plan, which runs till 2027. Beyond 2027 I suppose options are still open, but if the coaches sit unused and dumped for 4 years in a siding they certainly won't be in a good condition by then.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Most of which will be running around as 3 car units for the majority of the time…

7 of these were to be retained regardless of the Nova 3 withdrawal as part of the TPRU works - that left 15 to be withdrawn, which is 45 carriages. Let’s face it - TPE’s a mess, and this is a prime example of that.


Nationalisation was the right time to turn the page and get crew training back up to speed with them - but the DfT chose the easy way out and just binned them. Another prime example of where they want to take the railways in this country.

My bold x 2.

Those 45 carriages would roughly cover 9 out of the 13 Mk5 sets. I don't think anywhere near 9 have been out in one day !.

I really think the current money saving either says a lot about the governments approach to the railways or just as likely how strapped for cash the UK is.

 

[Iskra]

My bold x 2.

Those 45 carriages would roughly cover 9 out of the 13 Mk5 sets. I don't think anywhere near 9 have been out in one day !.

I really think the current money saving either says a lot about the governments approach to the railways or just as likely how strapped for cash the UK is.

It's not just that. TP have done a fantastic job of killing demand for the last X years. If they'd been a competent operator throughout that time, it would be interesting to see where passenger numbers would be at this point. TP have shot themselves in the foot somewhat and are now in a vicious cycle of self-imposed decline.

 

[800001]

See post above yours, stored 2024 where lease allows them to be returned.
Therefore becoming available for other operators

The Interim Managing Director, in a video address to the staff today, said that they will be withdrawn and stored and there are no plans to use them in the current rolling stock plan, which runs till 2027. Beyond 2027 I suppose options are still open, but if the coaches sit unused and dumped for 4 years in a siding they certainly won't be in a good condition by then.

 

[Peter749]

Class 185s will be retained to replace the mk5 sets. 22 x 3 car sets retained which is 66 vehicles to replace 65 x mk5 vehicles so basically a like for like replacement.

Slightly OT - who was going to get the 185s and what will they use now?

 

[170UTD]

Slightly OT - who was going to get the 185s and what will they use now?

One solution was for EMR to get them for use on Liverpool to Norwich, which would allow them to get rid of some/all of the 158s. I don't think it ever got past the proposal stage though.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Slightly OT - who was going to get the 185s and what will they use now?

I think the 185s had only slightly more chance of use outside TPE than the Mk5s have.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

As I said. The industry is descending into chaos. I don't think @800001 was throwing a strop any more than the person they were reacting to. This is all sadly symptomatic of the mess the UK railways are getting into and it is descending into pointless infighting.

BR had decades of being underfunded but we had strong leadership who said as it was and created environment where the teams worked together to the best they could. In the short term we can't do much about the political masters and even if Labour get in i doubt the magic money will materialise so its upto the industry to deal with the deck of cards it has been thrown but until we get some leadership nothing will change. Jackson at least is prepared to make difficult decisions to stabilise the operation.

 

[Greybeard33]

That’s not actually true, they are instead retaining the 22 x 185 which should have gone off lease.

Class 185s will be retained to replace the mk5 sets. 22 x 3 car sets retained which is 66 vehicles to replace 65 x mk5 vehicles so basically a like for like replacement.

But TPE's original rolling stock plan, which would have released the 22 185s, was unrealistic. To minimise the number of diagrams, it relied on 10 minute turnarounds at Manchester Airport and stoppers running all the way through from Manchester to Leeds. That caused the service to fall apart as soon as the May 2018 timetable was implemented. The layovers had to be extended and the stoppers split at Huddersfield, both of which required more diagrams.

Since then the Middlesbrough service has been extended to Saltburn and the Cleethorpes service extended to Liverpool instead of Manchester Airport, both requiring yet more diagrams.

 

[sjpowermac]

But TPE's original rolling stock plan, which would have released the 22 185s, was unrealistic. To minimise the number of diagrams, it relied on 10 minute turnarounds at Manchester Airport and stoppers running all the way through from Manchester to Leeds. That caused the service to fall apart as soon as the May 2018 timetable was implemented. The layovers had to be extended and the stoppers split at Huddersfield, both of which required more diagrams.

Since then the Middlesbrough service has been extended to Saltburn and the Cleethorpes service extended to Liverpool instead of Manchester Airport, both requiring yet more diagrams.

An excellent post with some often overlooked details.

I think the poster you replied to can bluster as much as they like, a return to anything even approaching the December 2019 timetable is well and truly off the table.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

An excellent post with some often overlooked details.

I think the poster you replied to can bluster as much as they like, a return to anything even approaching the December 2019 timetable is well and truly off the table.

This isn’t bluster, indeed they aren’t going back to the December 2019 timetable, whilst extensions such as Middlesborough to Saltburn and the longer turnarounds remain the second TPE Newcastle service has been withdrawn for the long term so what cost extra sets to sort that particular problem still won’t be an issue going forward as the December 2023 timetable has far less services than the 2019 one.

 

[Starmill]

Nationalisation was the right time to turn the page and get crew training back up to speed with them - but the DfT chose the easy way out and just binned them.

The nationalisation decision made the training picture worse, because a number of qualified staff left the business by declining the offer of a TPUE contract with Trans Pennine Trains. This meant, crucially, no notice period needed to be worked. Something which they were of course 100% entitled to do.

 

[D6700]

A return to anything even approaching the December 2019 timetable is well and truly off the table.

Indeed, I can't even think how far back you need to go to find such a woeful service. Quite possibly before Manchester Airport railway station opened and/or the Middlesbrough service started?

I posted a comparison with services in 2007 and 2016 here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/december-2023-timetable-change.252754/post-6380119

 

[sjpowermac]

This isn’t bluster, indeed they aren’t going back to the December 2019 timetable, whilst extensions such as Middlesborough to Saltburn and the longer turnarounds remain the second TPE Newcastle service has been withdrawn for the long term so what cost extra sets to sort that particular problem still won’t be an issue going forward as the December 2023 timetable has far less services than the 2019 one.

Well quite so, slash the timetable and hey presto, problem solved, I’m in awe at the genius involved here.

Perhaps you could have a go at justifying the unfavourable comparison drawn below.

Indeed, I can't even think how far back you need to go to find such a woeful service. Quite possibly before Manchester Airport railway station opened and/or the Middlesbrough service started?

I posted a comparison with services in 2007 and 2016 here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/december-2023-timetable-change.252754/post-6380119

 

[ainsworth74]

We appear to now be discussing the TPE timetable in general rather than the 68s+Mk5s themselves? I would ask that such discussion is taken to the relevant timetable thread rather than on this thread

 

[D6700]

The two are inextricably linked.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, I can't even think how far back you need to go to find such a woeful service. Quite possibly before Manchester Airport railway station opened and/or the Middlesbrough service started?

It's not massively different from the pre 1998 timetable. Though that had a through Scarborough.

 

[sjpowermac]

The two are inextricably linked.

Though to be fair, the TPE apologists with their topsy-turvy view of the world have tried to convince everyone otherwise, seemingly with some success...

OK, to stick strictly to the title, TPE are seeking to withdraw the Class 68/Mk5A sets “a step forward towards returning TPE to a stable and resilient operator.”

In addition the company are to apparently “put customers at the heart of our decision-making process.”

So, slashing the timetable, withdrawing new trains and replacing them with ones that are 17(?) years old and in the process binning off any hope of returning to the 2019 offering of 5 express trains per hour over the Leeds-Manchester core route is seen as “putting customers first.”

I really wouldn’t like to see what would have happened had they had a flagrant disregard for customers…

It's not massively different from the pre 1998 timetable. Though that had a through Scarborough.

Quite so.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Well quite so, slash the timetable and hey presto, problem solved, I’m in awe at the genius involved here.

Perhaps you could have a go at justifying the unfavourable comparison drawn below.

Certainly not trying to justify the timetable, just explaining how the numbers stack up against what TPE plan to run going forward…

 

[sjpowermac]

Certainly not trying to justify the timetable, just explaining how the numbers stack up against what TPE plan to run going forward…

Which is a lot less than in 2019 over the Manchester-Leeds section and is highly likely to remain that way.

But hey, they are not particularly important cities and at least the main aim of binning off the Class 68/Mk5A sets has been achieved.

 

[coxxy]

The nationalisation decision made the training picture worse, because a number of qualified staff left the business by declining the offer of a TPUE contract with Trans Pennine Trains. This meant, crucially, no notice period needed to be worked. Something which they were of course 100% entitled to do.

There was only 8 drivers to do so. All of which were already in varying points of their 6 month notice period already.

 

[317 forever]

No, TPE have confirmed today the 68s and mk5s will be stepped down from the December timetable change and stored until the lease ends in Spring 2024 and they can be returned to the lessors.

This means that they could be withdrawn from service at an even younger age than the Greater Anglia 379s.

 

[Starmill]

There was only 8 drivers to do so. All of which were already in varying points of their 6 month notice period already.

Sure it may not sound like much, but there were also conductors, projects teams and senior management who all left the business or took replacement roles elsewhere in First Group. All of that is counter-productive if your aim is business continuity. With time and money it's no major difficulty to correct, but the point I was making was that directly because of the decision to take the company to OLR, time and money needed and indeed still do need to go into continuity rather than projects to improve services.

 

[Wivenswold]

What's the opposite of "levelling-up"? Anyway, this is some more of that from Westminster.
Maybe the Mk5's are earmarked to run the shuttle between central London and the southern terminus of HS2 which, by the time this thread hits 100 pages, will be near Banbury.

 

[Peter Sarf]

What's the opposite of "levelling-up"? Anyway, this is some more of that from Westminster.
Maybe the Mk5's are earmarked to run the shuttle between central London and the southern terminus of HS2 which, by the time this thread hits 100 pages, will be near Banbury.

So you think they will go to Chiltern then .

 

[BoroAndy]

There is talk of the mk5a sets being used elsewhere, but isn't every 5th carriage converted partly to a driver unit with a psuedo class 68 cab

 

[Peter749]

There is talk of the mk5a sets being used elsewhere, but isn't every 5th carriage converted partly to a driver unit with a psuedo class 68 cab

Every 5th carriage was Built with a Driving cab so the driver just changes ends and the sets run Push/Pull
It is only a small section of the coach that is used for the cab - like an Emu.

IMG 4813 | Peter's Rail Pictures

IMG 4813 - IMG_4813.JPG

peter749.piwigo.com

Unlike the Chiltern sets that have a Full DVT at one end that is just for the Drivers cab at one end and a Guards area at the other.

82304 DVT - IMG 3408 | Peter's Rail Pictures

Marylebone - DVT 82304 IMG_3408.JPG

peter749.piwigo.com