Stansted Airport fines

[sct]

As suggested, I am starting a separate thread to seek advice re the fine I received on Friday/the broader issue of fines for using contactless payment in error at Stansted train station. I changed from the underground to NR at Tottenham Hale and was charged the full single fare (£21.40) plus a penalty amount (£50) upon arrival at Stansted. To be absolutely clear, I had no intention to evade the fare - I wrongly believed contactless was a valid method of payment for rail travel to all London airports.

I did not notice any signs advising me otherwise at Tottenham Hale (it just didn't occur to me for a moment I couldn't use my contactless so I wasn't hugely looking/was rushing - usual story), but I note @Joe Paxton's observation that there is prominent signage. Given the number of people facing this issue (see below), I'd suggest that signage alone is not adequate warning. Interesting to hear there are Ambassadors at Liverpool Street @BJames - again, no one obvious at Tottenham Hale.

I have submitted an appeal. I expect it will be unsuccessful at the first stage and will continue with the full appeal process. Will report back on progress but any advice would be welcomed. Ultimately, if I am unsuccessful I can live with it - if this is the way the rules are applied then I think it is v unfair (and I believe the reformed appeals process was described as being designed to help people who have made an honest mistake), but I wouldn't suggest I should be an exception to them.

My broader concern is if/how I can apply pressure to change the application of the rules at Stansted Airport. I am undoubtedly biased but this really does seem like an unreasonable approach, and not the way you expect to be treated as a customer in 2023. It feels like an attempt to take advantage of a confusing system and 'vulnerable' customers to generate revenue via penalty fares. Following random observations:

• I believe Stansted is the only London airport you cannot use contactless at. I have been using contactless at Gatwick since 2016!
• The airport is named London Stansted. I think it is understandable that people wrongly assume that the train station is within the London contactless travel zone.
• This approach is targeting customers who are vulnerable - by virtue of being visitors to the UK/unfamiliar with the rail system/differences in approach between airports/not native speakers/simply in a hurry to catch a flight (after a shockingly slow train station exit).
• Query why the ticket officers cannot have a general policy at Stansted that people who have an 'incomplete' contactless journey should be charged for the single fare but not the penalty amount.

A quick google shows this to be an issue that loads of people are facing:

• https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/2144354...ers-stansted-fined-believing-use-oyster-card/ - this 2019 data suggests 16,000 people were fined in two years.
• https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/tourist-trap-london-stansted-airport-how-best-loose-your-van-enter
• https://www.reddit.com/r/AskUK/comments/11ibs3h/how_do_i_contest_an_unfair_train_fine/
• https://www.tripadvisor.co.nz/ShowU...nsted_Mountfitchet_Essex_England.html#REVIEWS

I have written to Greater Anglia (complaining and requesting details of how they are addressing this known issue), London Travelwatch (requesting updated figures re Stansted fines) and to a couple of consumer champions (to see if this is something they'd be interested in). Any thoughts/suggestions welcome!

 

[fandroid]

The depressing news is that Stansted is not even included in the first phase of Project Oval, which is the contract that Transport for London has for extending the contactless fare system around London.

I don't think that we can offer much extra advice for you personally except to encourage you to appeal as you already intend to do. Others here can advise on the wording and the timing of the appeals so as comply as closely as possible with the Penalty Fare Regulations.

When thinking of who else to write to, perhaps you could include Stansted Airport itself, and even possibly Ryanair, as the principle airline operating from there.

Does anyone have advice on when to claim back the "incomplete journey" charge on contactless?

 

[Wallsendmag]

London Southend doesn't appear to allow contactless travel.

 

[Titfield]

As suggested, I am starting a separate thread to seek advice re the fine I received on Friday/the broader issue of fines for using contactless payment in error at Stansted train station. I changed from the underground to NR at Tottenham Hale and was charged the full single fare (£21.40) plus a penalty amount (£50) upon arrival at Stansted. To be absolutely clear, I had no intention to evade the fare - I wrongly believed contactless was a valid method of payment for rail travel to all London airports.

I did not notice any signs advising me otherwise at Tottenham Hale (it just didn't occur to me for a moment I couldn't use my contactless so I wasn't hugely looking/was rushing - usual story), but I note @Joe Paxton's observation that there is prominent signage. Given the number of people facing this issue (see below), I'd suggest that signage alone is not adequate warning. Interesting to hear there are Ambassadors at Liverpool Street @BJames - again, no one obvious at Tottenham Hale.

I have submitted an appeal. I expect it will be unsuccessful at the first stage and will continue with the full appeal process. Will report back on progress but any advice would be welcomed. Ultimately, if I am unsuccessful I can live with it - if this is the way the rules are applied then I think it is v unfair (and I believe the reformed appeals process was described as being designed to help people who have made an honest mistake), but I wouldn't suggest I should be an exception to them.

My broader concern is if/how I can apply pressure to change the application of the rules at Stansted Airport. I am undoubtedly biased but this really does seem like an unreasonable approach, and not the way you expect to be treated as a customer in 2023. It feels like an attempt to take advantage of a confusing system and 'vulnerable' customers to generate revenue via penalty fares. Following random observations:

• I believe Stansted is the only London airport you cannot use contactless at. I have been using contactless at Gatwick since 2016!
• The airport is named London Stansted. I think it is understandable that people wrongly assume that the train station is within the London contactless travel zone.
• This approach is targeting customers who are vulnerable - by virtue of being visitors to the UK/unfamiliar with the rail system/differences in approach between airports/not native speakers/simply in a hurry to catch a flight (after a shockingly slow train station exit).
• Query why the ticket officers cannot have a general policy at Stansted that people who have an 'incomplete' contactless journey should be charged for the single fare but not the penalty amount.

A quick google shows this to be an issue that loads of people are facing:

• https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/2144354...ers-stansted-fined-believing-use-oyster-card/ - this 2019 data suggests 16,000 people were fined in two years.
• https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/tourist-trap-london-stansted-airport-how-best-loose-your-van-enter
• https://www.reddit.com/r/AskUK/comments/11ibs3h/how_do_i_contest_an_unfair_train_fine/
• https://www.tripadvisor.co.nz/ShowU...nsted_Mountfitchet_Essex_England.html#REVIEWS

I have written to Greater Anglia (complaining and requesting details of how they are addressing this known issue), London Travelwatch (requesting updated figures re Stansted fines) and to a couple of consumer champions (to see if this is something they'd be interested in). Any thoughts/suggestions welcome!

If you wish to get this issue the attention you think it should then surely also write to Visit England / Visit Britain, the local MP, Simon Calder (well known travel journalist who "pays his own way", every other travel journalist you can find, Which / The Consumers Association, Trading Standards (over the misrepresentation over the airport name), Geoff Marshall (the youtuber rail expert), TV Programme Rip Off Britain (Angela Rippon and Gloria Hunniford), Martin Lewis, Association of British Travel Agents,
1. Secretary of State for Transport of the United Kingdom who is Mark Harper
2. Minister of state for Rail and HS2 who is Huw Merriman
3. Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Roads and Local Transport) who is Richard Holden - not sure about this one
4.Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Aviation, Maritime and Security) who is Baroness Vere of Norbiton

 

[Watershed]

London Southend doesn't appear to allow contactless travel.

How many flights a day does that have - 10 on a busy day, perhaps? As compared to Stansted’s hundreds. Probably of no more relevance than Biggin Hill in that case, I would have said.

 

[Brissle Girl]

If you wish to get this issue the attention you think it should then surely also write to Visit England / Visit Britain, the local MP, Simon Calder (well known travel journalist who "pays his own way", every other travel journalist you can find, Which / The Consumers Association, Trading Standards (over the misrepresentation over the airport name), Geoff Marshall (the youtuber rail expert), TV Programme Rip Off Britain (Angela Rippon and Gloria Hunniford), Martin Lewis, Association of British Travel Agents,
1. Secretary of State for Transport of the United Kingdom who is Mark Harper
2. Minister of state for Rail and HS2 who is Huw Merriman
3. Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Roads and Local Transport) who is Richard Holden - not sure about this one
4.Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Aviation, Maritime and Security) who is Baroness Vere of Norbiton

You could also try You and Yours on Radio 4. They are usually very interested in consumer issues. If I were doing it I would be inclined to research and provide photographs of Tottenham Hale station first to ensure that the comeback isn't that there is adequate signage there - you just didn't see it.

 

[sct]

When thinking of who else to write to, perhaps you could include Stansted Airport itself, and even possibly Ryanair, as the principle airline operating from there.

Thank you - I've written to Stansted.

A Penalty Fare is, in effect, an acknowledgement that this was not intentional fare evasion.

Thanks for your response on the separate thread re this - responding here so as not to derail further. I'd be interested for more detail on this. I've read through the Penalty Fare Regulations and the associated National Rail Guidelines and I didn't reach that conclusion. It appears to me that people are charged Penalty Fares when they have behaved dishonestly - it is just that a secision to prosecute is not being taken. I can't see that I've been treated any differently to someone who deliberately skipped the ticket barriers.

If you wish to get this issue the attention you think it should then surely also write to Visit England / Visit Britain, the local MP, Simon Calder (well known travel journalist who "pays his own way", every other travel journalist you can find, Which / The Consumers Association, Trading Standards (over the misrepresentation over the airport name), Geoff Marshall (the youtuber rail expert), TV Programme Rip Off Britain (Angela Rippon and Gloria Hunniford), Martin Lewis, Association of British Travel Agents,
1. Secretary of State for Transport of the United Kingdom who is Mark Harper
2. Minister of state for Rail and HS2 who is Huw Merriman
3. Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Roads and Local Transport) who is Richard Holden - not sure about this one
4.Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Aviation, Maritime and Security) who is Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Thank you, good suggestions! Will add to my list!

You could also try You and Yours on Radio 4. They are usually very interested in consumer issues. If I were doing it I would be inclined to research and provide photographs of Tottenham Hale station first to ensure that the comeback isn't that there is adequate signage there - you just didn't see it.

Thanks for the reply. I am not sure if I can face the trek back up to Tottenham Hale to check the signage (I'm on a mission, but only to a point ), but I agree this is the obvious issue I face. I have no idea what the signage is like at Tottenham Hale but, given the number of people I believe are receiving fines at Stansted Airport, I am sure it will be compliant with Regulation 8. ETA: I note that @Joe Paxton helpfully advised on my other thread that "Just to note, I was at Tottenham Hale recently and there was oodles of very prominent, bold and colourful signage in the NR ticket hall and on all the NR ticket gates (lots of bright red background, pictograms of aeroplanes and also crossed-out Oyster cards and contactless symbols), including large posters in English and five other European languages."

I suppose my broader point is that, if 16,000 people in two years* were fined at Stansted Airport train station, then this demonstrates that signs alone (whether they meet the Regulation 8 requirements or not) are not, in practice, an adequate warning.

*I appreciate this statistic is far from perfect (dated, not broken down into contactless payment fines vs other etc.) but it's the best I have. I think there were about 10 on my train alone!

 

[AlterEgo]

Ryanair are not going to go into bat against hidden and predatory fees!

How many flights a day does that have - 10 on a busy day, perhaps? As compared to Stansted’s hundreds. Probably of no more relevance than Biggin Hill in that case, I would have said.

Biggin Hill is at least actually in London.

 

[Wallsendmag]

How many flights a day does that have - 10 on a busy day, perhaps? As compared to Stansted’s hundreds. Probably of no more relevance than Biggin Hill in that case, I would have said.

I thought the name was the more important part and was also demonstrating it wasn't the only London airport without contactless.

Thanks for your response on the separate thread re this - responding here so as not to derail further. I'd be interested for more detail on this. I've read through the Penalty Fare Regulations and the associated National Rail Guidelines and I didn't reach that conclusion. It appears to me that people are charged Penalty Fares when they have behaved dishonestly - it is just that a secision to prosecute is not being taken. I can't see that I've been treated any differently to someone who deliberately skipped the ticket barriers.

No dishonestly lands you in court.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I suppose my broader point is that, if 16,000 people in two years* were fined at Stansted Airport train station, then this demonstrates that signs alone (whether they meet the Regulation 8 requirements or not) are not, in practice, an adequate warning.

*I appreciate this statistic is far from perfect (dated, not broken down into contactless payment fines vs other etc.) but it's the best I have. I think there were about 10 on my train alone!

I think that's a very fair point, though I would caution about the 16,000 figure in a different way. That equates to around 22 per day, or less than one per train arriving into the airport. Which in the context of the numbers arriving at the airport will be a very small percentage (accepting that the period in question will include a time when the airport was significantly quieter than it is today, due to travel restrictions).

 

[lookapigeon]

If you wish to get this issue the attention you think it should then surely also write to Visit England / Visit Britain, the local MP, Simon Calder (well known travel journalist who "pays his own way", every other travel journalist you can find, Which / The Consumers Association, Trading Standards (over the misrepresentation over the airport name), Geoff Marshall (the youtuber rail expert), TV Programme Rip Off Britain (Angela Rippon and Gloria Hunniford), Martin Lewis, Association of British Travel Agents,
1. Secretary of State for Transport of the United Kingdom who is Mark Harper
2. Minister of state for Rail and HS2 who is Huw Merriman
3. Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Roads and Local Transport) who is Richard Holden - not sure about this one
4.Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Aviation, Maritime and Security) who is Baroness Vere of Norbiton

You might also want to contact a few others too, such as BBC's Watchdog and the Guardian's consumer champions (contact details at the bottom of the piece).

I do find it very strange that these airports can call themselves "London" airports when they're nowhere in London. Southend is in Essex, Luton is in Bedfordshire and Gatwick is in Sussex!

 

[Haywain]

I do find it very strange that these airports can call themselves "London" airports when they're nowhere in London. Southend is in Essex, Luton is in Bedfordshire and Gatwick is in Sussex!

I have some sympathy with that view, but you have to look at this in the broader sense - in international terms they are all airports which serve London.

 

[sct]

I thought the name was the more important part and was also demonstrating it wasn't the only London airport without contactless.

Thanks - it was helpful as I have removed that reference from my (many!) emails as being technically incorrect.

I think that's a very fair point, though I would caution about the 16,000 figure in a different way. That equates to around 22 per day, or less than one per train arriving into the airport. Which in the context of the numbers arriving at the airport will be a very small percentage (accepting that the period in question will include a time when the airport was significantly quieter than it is today, due to travel restrictions).

Ah good point - that is a different way to look at the statistic, and to be honest does make me feel (a little) less righteous! It does still equate to £800k in Penalty Fare revenue though from probably mostly innocent mistakes. I have requested updated statistics from London Travelwatch - the number of people charged on my train plus the various complaints online plus the heavy enforcement presence (resulting in delays) at the station suggests this is a real issue. But thank you for putting it in that way, it does change the lens somewhat.

You might also want to contact a few others too, such as BBC's Watchdog and the Guardian's consumer champions (contact details at the bottom of the piece).

I do find it very strange that these airports can call themselves "London" airports when they're nowhere in London. Southend is in Essex, Luton is in Bedfordshire and Gatwick is in Sussex!

Thank you - will consider those too.

 

[Haywain]

It does still equate to £800k in Penalty Fare revenue though from probably mostly innocent mistakes.

The Penalty Fare was, until January 2023, £20.

 

[SargeNpton]

You might also want to contact a few others too, such as BBC's Watchdog and the Guardian's consumer champions (contact details at the bottom of the piece).

I do find it very strange that these airports can call themselves "London" airports when they're nowhere in London. Southend is in Essex, Luton is in Bedfordshire and Gatwick is in Sussex!

That's down to the marketing of the airport authorities. None of the stations that serve them have "London" in the station name, so it's not as if the rail industry is deliberately trying to mislead.

 

[Watershed]

Thank you - I've written to Stansted.



Thanks for your response on the separate thread re this - responding here so as not to derail further. I'd be interested for more detail on this. I've read through the Penalty Fare Regulations and the associated National Rail Guidelines and I didn't reach that conclusion. It appears to me that people are charged Penalty Fares when they have behaved dishonestly - it is just that a secision to prosecute is not being taken. I can't see that I've been treated any differently to someone who deliberately skipped the ticket barriers.



Thank you, good suggestions! Will add to my list!



Thanks for the reply. I am not sure if I can face the trek back up to Tottenham Hale to check the signage (I'm on a mission, but only to a point ), but I agree this is the obvious issue I face. I have no idea what the signage is like at Tottenham Hale but, given the number of people I believe are receiving fines at Stansted Airport, I am sure it will be compliant with Regulation 8. ETA: I note that @Joe Paxton helpfully advised on my other thread that "Just to note, I was at Tottenham Hale recently and there was oodles of very prominent, bold and colourful signage in the NR ticket hall and on all the NR ticket gates (lots of bright red background, pictograms of aeroplanes and also crossed-out Oyster cards and contactless symbols), including large posters in English and five other European languages."

I suppose my broader point is that, if 16,000 people in two years* were fined at Stansted Airport train station, then this demonstrates that signs alone (whether they meet the Regulation 8 requirements or not) are not, in practice, an adequate warning.

*I appreciate this statistic is far from perfect (dated, not broken down into contactless payment fines vs other etc.) but it's the best I have. I think there were about 10 on my train alone!

The mere fact that lots of Penalty Fares were issued doesn't mean that the signage complied with the Regulations. There is still plenty of signage out there that doesn't comply with the Regulations, because the train companies can't be bothered to pay sufficient attention to detail.

In a sense they're not wrong, because there's effectively been no penalty for their failure to comply with the Regulations. Unlike the pre-2018 Regulations, a scheme can't be suspended for non-compliance, and there's no regulatory body overseeing TOCs' schemes or compliance.

 

[fandroid]

---

The mere fact that lots of Penalty Fares were issued doesn't mean that the signage complied with the Regulations. There is still plenty of signage out there that doesn't comply with the Regulations, because the train companies can't be bothered to pay sufficient attention to detail.

In a sense they're not wrong, because there's effectively been no penalty for their failure to comply with the Regulations. Unlike the pre-2018 Regulations, a scheme can't be suspended for non-compliance, and there's no regulatory body overseeing TOCs' schemes or compliance.

It's possible that all the notices that are at Tottenham Hale and Liverpool Street concerning Oyster and Contactless have obscured or reduced the official ones that are required by the Penalty Fare Regulations

 

[The_Van]

I can't see a reason why there can't be an automated announcement at Tottenham Hale for the Stansted trains saying do not board without a valid ticket contact less and oyster are not valid on this service

 

[Joe Paxton]

I can't see a reason why there can't be an automated announcement at Tottenham Hale for the Stansted trains saying do not board without a valid ticket contact less and oyster are not valid on this service

I've a feeling there are indeed such announcements on the platform, but I can't say that for certain.

 

[jacksonbang]

I can't see a reason why there can't be an automated announcement at Tottenham Hale for the Stansted trains saying do not board without a valid ticket contact less and oyster are not valid on this service

I guess it would affect Penalty Fare revenue ! It's complete madness that a contactless system is not available from Stansted Airport - it is as if the company want you locked into them as soon as possible after you land - allowing contactless, thus not commiting until you actually are almost boarding the train would allow tourists to take advantage of other options - they love to push their tickets before you even leave the baggage collection.

 

[Titfield]

You might also want to contact a few others too, such as BBC's Watchdog and the Guardian's consumer champions (contact details at the bottom of the piece).

I do find it very strange that these airports can call themselves "London" airports when they're nowhere in London. Southend is in Essex, Luton is in Bedfordshire and Gatwick is in Sussex!

You mean you havent heard of London (Bournemouth Hurn) Airport?

Thank you - I've written to Stansted.

IIRC the surface transport Manager is Steve Mills. He has been there for at least 1/4 of a century and so knows the rail service very well indeed.

 

[sct]

Thanks both - helpful. Maybe I will do a reccy next time I'm up in that direction (although really I am more of an armchair warrior!). A couple of questions I have, having read through the section 8 and Schedule 1 to the Regulations:

• I am struggling to differentiate between the 'standard notice requirements' and the 'compulsory ticket area notice requirements'. Does anyone know which are relevant for me, having changed from the tube to National Rail at Tottenham Hale? I think when I touched through the barriers I was entering a 'compulsory ticket area' at that point?

• My natural instinct would be to focus on the signs that were in practice "readily visible" to me as I changed from the underground to the overground - (i) whether they were there, and (ii) whether they contained the prescribed information. That seems the reasonable position. However, my read of section 6(2)(b) (extract below for ease of reference) is that if their signs are more generally deficient (e.g. there is more than one entrance and there are not notices at each entrance), that is a complete defence, regardless of whether the signs at the point I entered meet requirements. Does anyone know if that is the correct interpretation?

6.—(1) Subject to paragraph (6), a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train (in this regulation “the passenger”) must not be charged a penalty fare where either paragraph (2) or (3) applies.

(2) This paragraph applies if, at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the train—

(b)the requirements for the display of notices specified in regulation 8 were not satisfied;

 

[jon81uk]

---

It's possible that all the notices that are at Tottenham Hale and Liverpool Street concerning Oyster and Contactless have obscured or reduced the official ones that are required by the Penalty Fare Regulations

There are notices on the ticket gates, on banners above the ticket gates and seven foot high signage behind the ticket gates at Tottenham Hale stating Oyster/contactless isn't valid to the airport and that a penalty fare will be charged. Its hard to miss them.

I can't see a reason why there can't be an automated announcement at Tottenham Hale for the Stansted trains saying do not board without a valid ticket contact less and oyster are not valid on this service

There is automated announcements on the platform.

 

[sct]

There are notices on the ticket gates, on banners above the ticket gates and seven foot high signage behind the ticket gates at Tottenham Hale stating Oyster/contactless isn't valid to the airport and that a penalty fare will be charged. Its hard to miss them.

There is automated announcements on the platform.

Thanks - nevertheless I did miss them! As did several other people on my train...

It's also interesting to understand that all these infographics etc., although aiding comprehensibility, might obscure the wording that they are legally required to provide. Tricky balance for the providers.

Interesting re announcements - do you know how often they are? I didn't hear one.

 

[jon81uk]

Thanks - nevertheless I did miss them! As did several other people on my train...

It's also interesting to understand that all these infographics etc., although aiding comprehensibility, might obscure the wording that they are legally required to provide. Tricky balance for the providers.

Interesting re announcements - do you know how often they are? I didn't hear one.

I commute via tottenham hale so as I go through quite often I don't notice every time the announcement happens, but I've definitely heard it.

 

[Watershed]

I am struggling to differentiate between the 'standard notice requirements' and the 'compulsory ticket area notice requirements'. Does anyone know which are relevant for me, having changed from the tube to National Rail at Tottenham Hale? I think when I touched through the barriers I was entering a 'compulsory ticket area' at that point?

The paid area of a station is only a Compulsory Ticket Area if signage says so. AFAIK, the only operators that have decided to enact CTAs are TfL (although they operate under different Penalty Fare legislation and Byelaws), Tyne & Wear Metro (although again different Byelaws) and Chiltern (at most, but not all, of their barriered stations).

Tottenham Hale doesn't have a CTA, nor do any other Greater Anglia managed stations to my knowledge.

Whether it's a CTA or not doesn't change a lot, other than that you can be issued a PF for merely being present in a CTA without a valid ticket (even if you haven't yet travelled), whilst in non-CTAs you must be on a train, or have alighted from a train, to receive a PF. Obviously the wording requirements for signs in CTAs differ accordingly.

My natural instinct would be to focus on the signs that were in practice "readily visible" to me as I changed from the underground to the overground - (i) whether they were there, and (ii) whether they contained the prescribed information. That seems the reasonable position

This would certainly be a good place to start. I have severe doubts as to whether compliant signage (as opposed to general, non-compliant signage warning of the possibility of PFs) is "readily visible" at Tottenham Hale.

A lot of TOCs' signage fails to comply with the exact wording requirements - noting the required phrases (e.g. "you may be charged...") are in quote marks, yet some TOCs have taken the liberty of paraphrasing them.

However, my read of section 6(2)(b) (extract below for ease of reference) is that if their signs are more generally deficient (e.g. there is more than one entrance and there are not notices at each entrance), that is a complete defence, regardless of whether the signs at the point I entered meet requirements. Does anyone know if that is the correct interpretation?

This is also correct, but it's a ground of appeal that is clearly more technical and which is (wrongly) unlikely to be accepted on appeal unless it had a material affect on your ability to see compliant signage.

Don't be dismayed if your initial or even second-stage appeal is refused; the appeals body is clearly of limited competence (to put it mildly...). We have seen several cases where the assessors' basic reading comprehension skills seem questionable. More appeals do seem to get properly looked at, and sometimes allowed, during the third and final stage of appeal.

It's worth noting that appealing even just once means that the matter effectively becomes a civil matter - the TOC can no longer prosecute you in relation to the incident using the usual Byelaws or section 5(3)(a) of RoRA, once a first-stage appeal has been determined (or the deadline for a decision has passed without a determination), unless they cancel it prior to such a decision being made.

Furthermore, the "final" stage of appeal isn't really final inasmuch as if you were to be sued for failing to pay the PF (not that we have ever heard of this happening), you could ultimately argue you are not liable if a valid argument is wrongly rejected by the notorious appeals body.

 

[The_Van]

I guess it would affect Penalty Fare revenue ! It's complete madness that a contactless system is not available from Stansted Airport - it is as if the company want you locked into them as soon as possible after you land - allowing contactless, thus not commiting until you actually are almost boarding the train would allow tourists to take advantage of other options - they love to push their tickets before you even leave the baggage collection.

I'm not sure what the logic of the limits of the contactless/Oyster area is but currently its a very long way from Broxbourne to the airport plus you also bring in the major towns of Harlow and Bishops Stortford.

I live in Stortford so would welcome it

I'm passing through T Hale on Friday so I'll have a look at the signs/check announcements

 

[sct]

Thank you so much @Watershed - this is hugely helpful, and what I will focus on in preparing my own appeal. I shall be examining the signage at Tottenham Hale closely for compliance with the technical requirements. Outrageous if the appeals body fail to consider technical defences to a strict liability offence (but, as you say, you cannot necessarily rely on the appeals body being competent). Noted re turning it into a civil matter - that's helpful.

The broader point remains my focus. I believe Greater Anglia are profiting from a confusing rail route and an unfamiliar customer base. I am fortunate that I am able to pay the Penalty Fare without suffering hardship and I have the time, ability, and inclination to pursue this. I expect that many other people who are fined in the same circumstances (a significant proportion of whom will be guests in our country) will not be in this position. I would like Greater Anglia to be pressured to relax Penalty Fares at Stansted where someone has used their contactless card to touch in, which I believe demonstrates a clear intention to make payment. Perhaps I am wrong and this is not as much of an issue as I think it is, but the Stansted Express TripAdvisor reviews tell quite a story - the word 'scam' is repeatedly used.

I'm passing through T Hale on Friday so I'll have a look at the signs/check announcements

Thank you very much - I would really appreciate that.

 

[jon81uk]

I'm not sure what the logic of the limits of the contactless/Oyster area is but currently its a very long way from Broxbourne to the airport plus you also bring in the major towns of Harlow and Bishops Stortford.

Contactless is coming in the next two years or so See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...s-coming-to-contactless-payment-cards.231684/

 

[jumble]

You mean you havent heard of London (Bournemouth Hurn) Airport?

Or indeed London Ashford (LYDD) Airport

IIRC the surface transport Manager is Steve Mills. He has been there for at least 1/4 of a century and so knows the rail service very well indeed.