Penalty Fares being charged for being on the wrong train on an Advance ticket

[yorkie]

It is not disputed that traditionally, if a passenger used a "walk-up" fare at an invalid time (e.g. Super Off Peak used at an Off Peak time and so on) were not liable to a Penalty Fare, but merely the full difference between the fare paid and the appropriate fare (including any Railcard discounts).

Indeed the NRCoT continues to have provision which I firmly believe offers the remedy to using a (Super) Off Peak fare at an invalid time as an excess fare.

However with Advance fares, no such protection exists within the NRCoT.

Prior to 2018, the Penalty Fares Rules 2002 applied, which in my opinion did not permit the issuing of Penalty Fares for Advance fares being used on the wrong train, however many of the protections in the PF Rules 2002 were swept away when the abysmal Penalty Fares Guidelines 2018 came into force five years ago.

Therefore, with the loss of protections in the PF Rules/Guidelines, and with no protection afforded by the NRCoT, some TOCs are taking advantage and are now issuing Penalty Fares for being on the wrong train on an Advance ticket.

An example of a TOC engaging in this disgusting behaviour is Northern, as documented in threads such as (for example) the following:

Penalty Notice query

Hi, I wonder is anyone can give me some guidance. My daughter purchased rail tickets on her mobile phone app for herself, her 18 & 11yr old son's, my other daughter and her 2 children aged 12 & 14. She did not reaslise that the return time was not negotiable and due to shopping with children...

www.railforums.co.uk

But this behaviour is at odds with:

New system launched for challenging 'honest' train ticket mistakes

Rail passengers issued with a penalty fare after making an "honest mistake" will have greater protection under rules which come into force on Friday.

www.standard.co.uk

Rail minister Jo Johnson said: "Rail users should make every effort to get the right ticket for their journey, but if you make an honest mistake you should feel confident that the appeals system will recognise this and treat you fairly.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/575787/rail-penalty-fares-summary-and-government-responses.pdf

Penalty fares protect paying passengers by acting as a deterrent on
those in the minority who travel without a valid ticket. I am, however,
aware that sometimes honest passengers can be caught out by a
genuine mistake, which can result in a penalty fare being issued
incorrectly causing undue stress. The current appeals process for
penalty fares does not always help passengers when this happens. I
am keen to ensure a better and more transparent process for
passengers...

New independent appeals process to protect passengers issued with penalty fares

Penalty fare rules altered to offer greater protection to those making genuine mistakes.

www.gov.uk

Rail users should make every effort to get the right ticket for their journey, but if you make an honest mistake, you should feel confident that the appeals system will recognise this and treat you fairly.

The rail industry seems very confused regarding whether penalty fares intended for fare dodgers or people who made an honest mistake under certain circumstances, and indeed some TOCs seem to act differently to others in this area.

Is there anything we can do about this?

 

[Kite159]

Where would you draw the line between someone who accidentally booked an advance on the likes of Trainline (i.e. one of those Northern advances on the day) without realising it was for booked train only to someone who willingly books an advance for a cheaper service (i.e. for a stopper) but boards a fast service which costed more at the time of purchase [i.e. someone buying a ticket for the Wigan - Liverpool stopper but boards the semi-fast service from Blackpool knowing their ticket is only valid for the stopper but decides to chance it to save time (and money)?

 

[Starmill]

Where would you draw the line between someone who accidentally booked an advance on the likes of Trainline (i.e. one of those Northern advances on the day) without realising it was for booked train only to someone who willingly books an advance for a cheaper service (i.e. for a stopper) but boards a fast service which costed more at the time of purchase [i.e. someone buying a ticket for the Wigan - Liverpool stopper but boards the semi-fast service from Blackpool knowing their ticket is only valid for the stopper but decides to chance it to save time (and money)?

Is this really a serious issue though, insofar as it can't be resolved by simply denying boarding? There's no reason the company can't do manual ticket checks before boarding if they wish to and just accept that it's rarely a problem if they don't want to or can't?

If the customer uses a different company to ones their ticket is restricted to, they may still be given a Penalty Fare, and this unchanged. I don't think that's right either but that is the way it is, and that's long-standing.

 

[londonbridge]

It was at least fifteen years ago, maybe more, on the East coast mainline, the only time I’ve been on the wrong train with an advance through my own fault and tried to blag it, as I’d noticed they didn’t always ask for the reservation slip (when you used to get two coupons per ticket, one being the ticket, the other being the seat reservation details). When the guard came round he asked for the reservation slip so I immediately fessed up and admitted I was on the wrong train. Can’t remember what he charged me and obviously can’t search bank transactions that far back but I’ve got a feeling I was charged a penalty fare on top of the difference between what I’d paid and the walk up fare at the time.

 

[Hadders]

The internal industry guidance has always indicated that passengers travelling with an Advance ticket, correctly dated but on the wrong train is treated as if they have no ticket and be required to purchase a new ticket and could be liable for a Penalty Fare, depending on where they are travelling.

I suspect this conflicts with the 2002 Penalty Fare Regulations but that would not surprise me, given that we are talking about the rail industry....

 

[Haywain]

Can’t remember what he charged me and obviously can’t search bank transactions that far back but I’ve got a feeling I was charged a penalty fare on top of the difference between what I’d paid and the walk up fare at the time.

Whatever you were charged it was not a Penalty Fare.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It was at least fifteen years ago, maybe more, on the East coast mainline, the only time I’ve been on the wrong train with an advance through my own fault and tried to blag it, as I’d noticed they didn’t always ask for the reservation slip (when you used to get two coupons per ticket, one being the ticket, the other being the seat reservation details). When the guard came round he asked for the reservation slip so I immediately fessed up and admitted I was on the wrong train. Can’t remember what he charged me and obviously can’t search bank transactions that far back but I’ve got a feeling I was charged a penalty fare on top of the difference between what I’d paid and the walk up fare at the time.

None of the ICEC franchises have operated a Penalty Fare scheme

 

[Watershed]

It was at least fifteen years ago, maybe more, on the East coast mainline, the only time I’ve been on the wrong train with an advance through my own fault and tried to blag it, as I’d noticed they didn’t always ask for the reservation slip (when you used to get two coupons per ticket, one being the ticket, the other being the seat reservation details). When the guard came round he asked for the reservation slip so I immediately fessed up and admitted I was on the wrong train. Can’t remember what he charged me and obviously can’t search bank transactions that far back but I’ve got a feeling I was charged a penalty fare on top of the difference between what I’d paid and the walk up fare at the time.

Neither LNER nor their predecessors have ever operated Penalty Fares schemes. Hull Trains and Grand Central have operated a “buy on board” policy for many years (possibly since their inception) which means there is no penalty for buying onboard.

So at worst this would have been a new Anytime Single. Certainly likely to have been expensive, but not a Penalty Fare.

 

[Starmill]

It was at least fifteen years ago, maybe more, on the East coast mainline, the only time I’ve been on the wrong train with an advance through my own fault and tried to blag it, as I’d noticed they didn’t always ask for the reservation slip (when you used to get two coupons per ticket, one being the ticket, the other being the seat reservation details). When the guard came round he asked for the reservation slip so I immediately fessed up and admitted I was on the wrong train. Can’t remember what he charged me and obviously can’t search bank transactions that far back but I’ve got a feeling I was charged a penalty fare on top of the difference between what I’d paid and the walk up fare at the time.

Likely you were charged the difference and a "supplement" of £10, which some onboard staff used to do (though it was very unclear if that was the intention of the company). However this may actually have been a lower price than what they were entitled to charge, a new ticket (either at the full price or the appropriate price depending on the exact circumstances and year).

Ticket offices should still charge the difference plus up to £10, provided the departure time of the first service hasn't yet passed.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Neither LNER nor their predecessors have ever operated Penalty Fares schemes. Hull Trains and Grand Central have operated a “buy on board” policy for many years (possibly since their inception) which means there is no penalty for buying onboard.

So at worst this would have been a new Anytime Single. Certainly likely to have been expensive, but not a Penalty Fare.

Grand Central made a big thing of 'buy on board' being one of their USPs when they launched.

 

[yorkie]

A few years ago (probably around 2018) the internal KnowledgeBase (iKB) stated that if a customer was on the correct train company, but the wrong train, on an Advance ticket, they should be charged the appropriate fare, including any Railcard discounts.

But that changed, for the worse, despite the Government and RDG issuing press releases claiming that customer rights in this area were being improved.

This is a scandal which I hope the media pick up on, but I doubt they will.

 

[Wallsendmag]

A few years ago (probably around 2018) the internal KnowledgeBase (iKB) stated that if a customer was on the correct train company, but the wrong train, on an Advance ticket, they should be charged the appropriate fare, including any Railcard discounts.

But that changed, for the worse, despite the Government and RDG issuing press releases claiming that customer rights in this area were being improved.

This is a scandal which I hope the media pick up on, but I doubt they will.

I think there are bigger fish to fry currently

 

[CyrusWuff]

The internal industry guidance has always indicated that passengers travelling with an Advance ticket, correctly dated but on the wrong train is treated as if they have no ticket and be required to purchase a new ticket and could be liable for a Penalty Fare, depending on where they are travelling.

I suspect this conflicts with the 2002 Penalty Fare Regulations but that would not surprise me, given that we are talking about the rail industry....

I'm sure it will come as no surprise to learn that the 2018 Penalty Fare Regulations appear to have removed that exemption.

A few years ago (probably around 2018) the internal KnowledgeBase (iKB) stated that if a customer was on the correct train company, but the wrong train, on an Advance ticket, they should be charged the appropriate fare, including any Railcard discounts.

Checking archive.org, the Advance tickets Terms and Conditions page on the public National Rail site stated the following in April 2013:

Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If you board a train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must be purchased. Depending on the Train Company you are travelling with, you may be liable to a Penalty Fare if you board the train with an invalid ticket.

Unfortunately, I can't provide a contemporary link to the Advance Fare FAQs page from Knowledgebase as it was during the period when access was restricted to users on the railway WAN. The current version, however, states:

Travelling on an incorrect train would be the same as travelling with no ticket and they will need to purchase a new one as if no ticket were held. The customer would also be liable for a penalty fare or other ticket irregularity, depending on where they are travelling.

 

[yorkie]

Yes it changed around 2018, when the rules were ostensibly being changed to protect passengers (!)

In 2017 it was worded as follows:

Q: If customers are found to be travelling not on their booked train (but on the correct date and correct Train Company), what fare will they be required to buy on board the train?

A: The fare that would have applied had they purchased it at the station for travel on that train immediately before the start of the journey. If required a return fare can be
sold.
Railcard discounts are allowed if the original Advance fare was Railcard discounted and the Railcard is held at the time of trave

The new rules are a disgrace and the way companies like Northern are behaving is appalling. It seems their intention is to drive away customers and give the entire industry a bad name.

 

[tomuk]

The new rules are a disgrace and the way companies like Northern are behaving is appalling. It seems their intention is to drive away customers and give the entire industry a bad name.

I think you language is bit hyperbolic honestly. If there is genuine error on the customers part would the appeals process not be the correct avenue?

 

[yorkie]

I think you language is bit hyperbolic honestly.

Would people who have been issued Penalty Fares agree with you, I wonder?

If there is genuine error on the customers part would the appeals process not be the correct avenue?

Are you saying that a Penalty Fare which has been correctly issued (but defying common sense) has grounds for appeal, and that appeals for correctly issued PFs are successful?

Penalty Fares are routely issued for people who make mistakes, under certain circumstances; indeed some TOCs go out of their way to make it clear they are not an accusation of fare dodging. This appears to be at odds with the original rationale for which PFs were introduced.

 

[tomuk]

Would people who have been issued Penalty Fares agree with you, I wonder?

Not sure that that is relevant as it is my opinion that your language is hyperbolic. There are lots of other reasons, punctuality and reliability probably rating highest with overall price a wider driver, why people are being driven away from the railway rather then a slight change in penalty fare issuing policy. As regards those receiving PFs agreeing with me they probably wouldn't as they've just received a £100+ charge but I wouldn't necessarily give them any sympathy either depending on the reasons for being on the wrong train. If they're just ignoring the terms of the ticket then the PF is deserved.

Are you saying that a Penalty Fare which has been correctly issued (but defying common sense) has grounds for appeal, and that appeals for correctly issued PFs are successful?

It may not be how the current system works but one would hope that a stage of the appeals process would allow the consideration of any extenuating circumstances to be considered such as being mis old or joining the wrong train due to poor information.

Penalty Fares are routely issued for people who make mistakes, under certain circumstances; indeed some TOCs go out of their way to make it clear they are not an accusation of fare dodging. This appears to be at odds with the original rationale for which PFs were introduced.

You will have to explain that point further. Are you saying that the intention was they wren't to be a 'punishment' originally but now they are being used as such? Personally I have more concerns are with the inability of guards to issue them and the subsequent use of byelaw prosecutions\out of court FPNs being used for somewhat similar offences depending on if you're caught by a guard or rpi.

 

[Hadders]

I think you language is bit hyperbolic honestly. If there is genuine error on the customers part would the appeals process not be the correct avenue?

The appeals body would look at whether or not the Penalty Fare has been correctly issued. Legally speaking, it would've been issued correctly so the appeal would fail.

 

[Bluejays]

Does seem a bit ott. Full anytime single, plus losing the money they've already paid for the advance is surely enough of a punishment. To penalty fare on top seems extremely excessive.

I wish a few of the idiots who have kicked off at me for charging them the difference would read about what could have happened to them!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does seem a bit ott. Full anytime single, plus losing the money they've already paid for the advance is surely enough of a punishment. To penalty fare on top seems extremely excessive.

When PF reform was originally being consulted upon, the idea was that the PF would be £50 plus the appropriate walk-up fare including Railcard discounts, which would have been less of a penalty than some of the silly IC Anytime fares. Sadly it appears to have been sneaked up to £50 plus the Anytime fare.

 

[CyrusWuff]

When PF reform was originally being consulted upon, the idea was that the PF would be £50 plus the appropriate walk-up fare including Railcard discounts, which would have been less of a penalty than some of the silly IC Anytime fares. Sadly it appears to have been sneaked up to £50 plus the Anytime fare.

The 2022 amendment made no change to the 2018 regs with regards to specifying what fare a PF should be based on.

As such, it should still be an undiscounted (Super) Off-Peak if appropriate for the time of day, and for the appropriate route rather than automatically opting the most expensive option.

I am, however, aware that at least one TOC has issued instructions to staff that they should sell an undiscounted Anytime Single instead of issuing a Penalty Fare where doing so is the more expensive option.

 

[londonbridge]

Likely you were charged the difference and a "supplement" of £10, which some onboard staff used to do (though it was very unclear if that was the intention of the company).

That sounds more like it actually.

 

[Haywain]

That sounds more like it actually.

And if you were travelling on an earlier train than booked, with the right operator, that was the correct charge as the Advance ticket was still valid for the correct train. If you were travelling on a later train than booked, you got lucky, as the ticket had no validity or value after the departure of the booked train and a new ticket should have been sold.

 

[Starmill]

It may not be how the current system works but one would hope that a stage of the appeals process would allow the consideration of any extenuating circumstances to be considered such as being mis old or joining the wrong train due to poor information.

You're right, it's not how the current system works. So the question is do you deal with the system as it is or as you'd ideally like?

Personally I have more concerns are with the inability of guards to issue them

A safety critical guard has to remain with the train, so although they have been able to issue Penalty Fares at Chiltern and elsewhere in the past, they in practice do so rarely. The customer can simply ignore them until the train stops, and then leave the train.

This is a key reason why Southern and Southeastern onboard supervisors don't usually issue them despite many being authorised collectors.

 

[tomuk]

You're right, it's not how the current system works. So the question is do you deal with the system as it is or as you'd ideally like?

I'd spend my time trying to change the system to how it should be as I'm not sure what 'dealing with the system means'

A safety critical guard has to remain with the train, so although they have been able to issue Penalty Fares at Chiltern and elsewhere in the past, they in practice do so rarely. The customer can simply ignore them until the train stops, and then leave the train.

This is a key reason why Southern and Southeastern onboard supervisors don't usually issue them despite many being authorised collectors.

Why do Guards need to leave the train to issue a PF? As regards ignoring them presumably the customer does the same if the guard tries to charge them a full fare too?
There should be a consistent process used by whomever passengers are stopped by with the same stages of appeal and discount. Not the current inconsistency where your 'punishment' can vary from being happily sold the discounted ticket you should have had, through being charged a £100+ full fare PF with the right to appeal and a quick pay discount to being threatened with court unless you pay a 'fake FPN' out of court settlement which you might get out of if you bother to beg and plead your case.

 

[Starmill]

Why do Guards need to leave the train to issue a PF?

Well if the train is approaching a station and the guard says oh I'm sorry you'll have to pay a Penalty Fare, what are they going to do if the person simply gets up and leaves the train?

 

[tomuk]

Well if the train is approaching a station and the guard says oh I'm sorry you'll have to pay a Penalty Fare, what are they going to do if the person simply gets up and leaves the train?

What does an RPI do? Chase them around the concourse and hope BTP puts in an appearance before the recalcitrant passenger biffs them on the nose?

 

[Starmill]

What does an RPI do? Chase them around the concourse and hope BTP puts in an appearance before the recalcitrant passenger biffs them on the nose?

Leaves the train with them and follows them until they get their name and address. What else would you expect them to do?

Some RPI grades are trained in the use of "reasonable force", other operators have dedicated roles who support revenue protection staff, such as Southeastern's Rail Enforcement Officers.

Very few passengers are going to get physical just because a Penalty Fare is being issued in accordance with the rules. Clearly a small proportion will, but that's predictable and easy enough to prepare for. The way guards are asked manage that kind of conflict over buying a ticket is by walking away.

 

[tomuk]

Leaves the train with them and follows them until they get their name and address. What else would you expect them to do?

Some RPI grades are trained in the use of "reasonable force", other operators have dedicated roles who support revenue protection staff, such as Southeastern's Rail Enforcement Officers.

Very few passengers are going to get physical just because a Penalty Fare is being issued in accordance with the rules. Clearly a small proportion will, but that's predictable and easy enough to prepare for. The way guards are asked manage that kind of conflict over buying a ticket is by walking away.

So where is the problem with guards issuing PFs? If in the majority of cases passengers aren't going to get physical and those that are are easy to predict and prepare for.

 

[ainsworth74]

So where is the problem with guards issuing PFs? If in the majority of cases passengers aren't going to get physical and those that are are easy to predict and prepare for.

From my experience watching RPIs on my local line (Saltburn - Darlington) having the conductors issue PFs would lead to significant delays quite quickly. It is not unusual for an RPI to be dealing with a PF at the same time as the train is calling at a station. Conductors can just abandon their ticket check/ticket sale to go and release the doors. Not as easy if you're in the middle of issuing a PF, quite apart from any issues around people walking off.

I'd rather the conductor got on with their operational role and sold tickets in the spare time between station calls and left the PF issuing to RPIs personally speaking.