due to a short notice change to the timetable...

[Parjon]

Ok. So we all know about the TPE scandal and why announcements stating cancellations "due to a short notice change to the timetable" proliferated across the cities affected.

BUT this announcement seems to now being used liberally all over the place. Still hear it daily at Lime Street, even when not talking about TPE trains. Have read two threads on this forum in recent weeks regarding elsewhere including on CrossRail.

As an explanation it has never sufficed, and is basically saying "your train is cancelled because we've cancelled it". It offers no reason why. Why has the "timetable" been changed at "short notice".

What is going on, who is responsible, and who needs to be hauled up and given a talking to and told to stop insulting passengers??

 

[Parallel]

What is going on, who is responsible, and who needs to be hauled up and given a talking to and told to stop insulting passengers??

Northern seem to use it a lot too - TPE and Northern seem to be the worst for it. I thought DfT guidance was not to use the reason where possible, yet the two TOCs that are abusing it most are operator of last resort TOCs…

 

[Mgameing123]

Ok. So we all know about the TPE scandal and why announcements stating cancellations "due to a short notice change to the timetable" proliferated across the cities affected.

BUT this announcement seems to now being used liberally all over the place. Still hear it daily at Lime Street, even when not talking about TPE trains. Have read two threads on this forum in recent weeks regarding elsewhere including on CrossRail.

As an explanation it has never sufficed, and is basically saying "your train is cancelled because we've cancelled it". It offers no reason why. Why has the "timetable" been changed at "short notice".

What is going on, who is responsible, and who needs to be hauled up and given a talking to and told to stop insulting passengers??

Elizabeth Line is the only one that actually makes sense. They do this to maintain a stable service without any delays. As it has to share tracks with other operators on its branches and needs to maintain a metro type service on its core. It forces MTR to cancel trains or run a few skip stop services.

 

[Essexman]

Same on TFL - 'Delays due to cancellations'.
Passengers should be told the root cause of delays.

 

[Moonshot]

Same on TFL - 'Delays due to cancellations'.
Passengers should be told the root cause of delays.

What difference would it make? The train would still be cancelled and passengers would have to make alternative plans to get from a to b. The more informed opinion on here would state that the root cause is " the government's lack of ambition and vision for the railway" which wouldn't sound particularly good over a station PA system

 

[PsychoMouse]

Same on TFL - 'Delays due to cancellations'.
Passengers should be told the root cause of delays.

Why? Nobody off of this forum actually cares. They only care about whether they can get to/from work.

 

[Essexman]

What difference would it make? The train would still be cancelled and passengers would have to make alternative plans to get from a to b. The more informed opinion on here would state that the root cause is " the government's lack of ambition and vision for the railway" which wouldn't sound particularly good over a station PA system

It would be good if someone was brave enough to say that over the PA!
I think many people do want to know the cause of delays & cancellations and don't want to be fobbed off.

 

[northwichcat]

Look at cancelled journeys on Northern's journey check to see how widely the term is used. Other than the Hazel Grove cancellations, due to a track defect, the majority of the 150 listed are due to a 'short notice change to the timetable'.

Northern JourneyCheck - Train times and live real time delay/cancellation/disruption information.

Northern JourneyCheck provides real time, up-to-date train times and train disruption information keeping you informed about any delays or cancellations on the network and helping you know what to do when your journey is affected. Train Cancellations, Delays, Alterations and Engineering Work...

www.journeycheck.com

 

[Carlisle]

The more informed opinion on here would state that the root cause is " the government's lack of ambition and vision for the railway" which wouldn't sound particularly good over a station PA system

Avanti appear to have been able to recruit & train sufficient staff in a relatively short period in order to run a reasonably reliable service so is it Governments fault that Northern & TPE haven’t ?

 

[josh-j]

Well, yes. The government specifies how staffing is to work, and they directly run Northern and TPE now as well.

Avanti is the flagship service. Northern is, I can only assume, low priority to the government and managed accordingly. Local trains for small stations. If they cared they'd make sure it ran better.

 

[Horizon22]

Why? Nobody off of this forum actually cares. They only care about whether they can get to/from work.

Hmm delays (TfL service status) “due to cancellations” does sound weird. You could attribute it to the cause of the cancellations but that can get very political (shortage of train operators for instance) so it’s sometimes fudged like this.

Actually a considerable amount of people want to know why a train is delayed/cancelled/altered, albeit not to the same level of detail as experts/enthusiasts may.

Sometimes there’s planning errors in the live database and this occur around strike times as well which is when this “short-notice change to the timetable” delay/cancellations reason is best employed, but some TOCs have abused it.

 

[snowleopard]

What difference would it make? The train would still be cancelled and passengers would have to make alternative plans to get from a to b. The more informed opinion on here would state that the root cause is " the government's lack of ambition and vision for the railway" which wouldn't sound particularly good over a station PA system

Why? Nobody off of this forum actually cares. They only care about whether they can get to/from work.

What's the underlying evidence for this assumption? I can only offer "anecdata" from my (non-railway-interested) friends, they do actually care about the reason. E.g. they will be much more sympathetic if there was a medical emergency etc. ("can't blame the railway company for that"), than if there was a staff shortage, operational problem etc. No one's asking for a 4 paragraphs explanation, but a bit more than "the train is cancelled because it's cancelled" is not something that only rail forum users would want to know.

If you needed something from your local council, and the phone line said "Sorry we can't take your call because we can't take your call", would that satisfy you?

 

[nr758123]

Why? Nobody off of this forum actually cares. They only care about whether they can get to/from work.

My fellow passengers on TPE, who may or may not be on Railforums, are quite keen to know why their trains are being cancelled and are not impressed by being fobbed off with the meaningless sequence of words which forms the title to this thread. It may be different in other parts of the country where the train service is more or less ok.

 

[Trainbike46]

The way I see it, if the railway company can't or won't give a reason for the delay, isn't it better to just not state a reason at all?

So, for example:

Instead of "cancelled due to a short-notice change in the timetable" say "cancelled," ideally followed by advice on how to travel instead
or, instead of "delays due to cancellations", just says "delays," ideally followed by an indication of how much the delay is likely to be, or suggested alternative routes

 

[Snow1964]

My fellow passengers on TPE, who may or may not be on Railforums, are quite keen to know why their trains are being cancelled and are not impressed by being fobbed off with the meaningless sequence of words which forms the title to this thread. It may be different in other parts of the country where the train service is more or less ok.

Yes the excuse is meaningless, or more strictly basically says change to your train is due to another change.

Verbal garbage, that is on a par with with saying your train is late because it is later than planned. Drivel without explanation.

 

[josh-j]

Does kinda feel like a "safe" alternative to stating the actual reasons which may cause embarrassment to operators and/or the government. Shortage of train crew being the main one that comes to mind.

 

[trainophile]

Is it stating the obvious that TPE and Northern don’t serve the sanctified London environs, whereas the north of the country is not considered to be of any importance?

Londoners wouldn’t accept such a weak, baffling and meaningless excuse, hence it not being given for Avanti cancellations.

 

[Bevan Price]

Yes the excuse is meaningless, or more strictly basically says change to your train is due to another change.

Verbal garbage, that is on a par with with saying your train is late because it is later than planned. Drivel without explanation.

In other words, it is a "lie". PR gobbledegook to cover the real reason(s). "We don't have enough staff because the treasury will not allow us to recruit them (or allow us the pay them more to compensate for inflation caused largely by government actions)."

 

[Parjon]

Londoners wouldn’t accept such a weak, baffling and meaningless excuse, hence it not being given for Avanti cancellations.

It has been heard on crossrail.

 

[trainophile]

It has been heard on crossrail.

I think someone explained above that in the case of Crossrail there is occasionally a genuine need for a short notice change to the timetable!

 

[Craig1122]

Is it stating the obvious that TPE and Northern don’t serve the sanctified London environs, whereas the north of the country is not considered to be of any importance?

Londoners wouldn’t accept such a weak, baffling and meaningless excuse, hence it not being given for Avanti cancellations.

Ha ha. Tfl have been using "Minor/severe delays due to train cancellations" for months on end.

 

[PsychoMouse]

Is it stating the obvious that TPE and Northern don’t serve the sanctified London environs, whereas the north of the country is not considered to be of any importance?

Londoners wouldn’t accept such a weak, baffling and meaningless excuse, hence it not being given for Avanti cancellations.

A northerner with a chip on their shoulder! Colour me shocked.

take a look at the TFL board most days and the Jubilee Line will say 'minor delays due to cancellations'.

GWR, Liz Line, Greater Anglia and C2C also break out the 'change to the timetable' line regularly.

 

[trainophile]

I thought it was the actual expression “short notice change to the timetable“ that we were discussing. Of course there will be cancellations for various reasons but a credible explanation is more acceptable to most people than the blatant cop-out we’re complaining about.

It conjures up a vision of a planner sitting in a dimly lit office late at night thinking “I’m bored - I know, I’ll change the timetable and knock a few trains off for tomorrow, that’ll show ‘em”.

Why can’t they just say staffing issues or shortage of rolling stock (as applicable)? You can grumble at that but at least you’re not being treated with contempt. Mind you an equally irritating one is TfW’s “more trains than usual needing repair“. Doesn’t say much for their maintenance planning.

 

[Parjon]

I think someone explained above that in the case of Crossrail there is occasionally a genuine need for a short notice change to the timetable!

it is still the same announcement and it still doesn't say why the "timetable" had to be changed, so it's still not a genuine need. Just because that one person knows the secret reason why, doesn't mean everyone else does. It's still totally inappropriate.

 

[trainophile]

it is still the same announcement and it still doesn't say why the "timetable" had to be changed, so it's still not a genuine need. Just because that one person knows the secret reason why, doesn't mean everyone else does. It's still totally inappropriate.

Perhaps the difference is that I understand with Crossrail the “short notice“ is literally due to something that has happened in the last hour or so to cause timetable disruption.

With TPE they are trying to fob us off the night before, when it is unlikely that the reason is an “operational incident”, to use another equally vague but more reasonable explanation.

I do agree that there must be more suitable expressions though. It’s become a catch-all and tells you nothing useful.

 

[Frontera2]

A fair challenge, I know the industry is looking at this particular reason in an effort to minimise its usage. It was originally created in the aftermath of the 2018 timetable crisis where there were literally changes being made to the timetable at 24 hours (or less) notice

 

[Llandudno]

I thought it was the actual expression “short notice change to the timetable“ that we were discussing. Of course there will be cancellations for various reasons but a credible explanation is more acceptable to most people than the blatant cop-out we’re complaining about.

It conjures up a vision of a planner sitting in a dimly lit office late at night thinking “I’m bored - I know, I’ll change the timetable and knock a few trains off for tomorrow, that’ll show ‘em”.

Why can’t they just say staffing issues or shortage of rolling stock (as applicable)? You can grumble at that but at least you’re not being treated with contempt. Mind you an equally irritating one is TfW’s “more trains than usual needing repair“. Doesn’t say much for their maintenance planning.

At least TfW have seemingly stopped the phrase ‘cancelled due to resource availability’ as far as I am aware?

 

[Adrian1980uk]

It's all got a bit silly, disruption that makes the press always has some one trotting out the line 'no information' when there is an abundance of information available i.e. your train is delayed/cancelled. I accept that doesn't help you get home but no one considers there might not be the knowledge anywhere as to when the trains will be up and running. I work in IT and the number of times I've answered ’when is it going to be fixed' with 5 minutes after I find what's broken.

To avoid the accusations of TOCs not giving information, these nonsense statements come out, i.e. the service is cancelled due to the service not running, roughly translated it means we've cancelled the service but don't really want to announce the reason why as we haven't got train crew or a train to operate it due to a cock up.

 

[trainophile]

It came to me in the middle of the night, perhaps the reason this expression is irritating is the use of the word timetable.

Most people’s understanding of timetable is something that once fixed stays the same for a period, be it a school term or a printed poster on a station wall. A short notice change to it implies that from now on there will be no 12:19 to Cleethorpes ongoing, not just for today.

Perhaps “an unavoidable temporary change to the schedule for today” would be more helpful.

 

[Parjon]

No, it wouldn't. I want to know the reason.