Confirmed : HS2 West Midlands-Manchester line to be scrapped and replaced with other projects.

[Starmill]

I’m not sure how Manchester to Bradford will be able to be undertaken in 30 mins, or Bradford to Huddersfield in 12 mins, but I imagine they aren’t either.

The shortest an entirely new-build line could possibly make would be about 13.5 miles, so that'd imply a non-stop run and a maximum permissible speed of 110miles/hour. So I'd say, technically achievable, yes. But realistic? Not a chance.

A large amount of property and other protected land is rather in the way, so most of such a short route would be tunnelled. Topography is also near as challenging as it comes.

 

[Irascible]

This is deliberately misleading because what that actually means is over half the benefits were in fact in other places other than London and the South East.

Maybe he's trying to lose votes in London & the SE too. Got to level up the loss of business confidence too.

Whole thing is like some playground spat.

 

[Starmill]

Still not answering the question posed.

I've answered your question. Now give me some evidence of this grand conspiracy you say the BBC are involved in? You're talking bunkum.

Shame the gaslighting can't be ditched along wth the HS2 project.

The project is going nowhere, because in case you've not noticed, rather a large part of it is under construction.

 

[leighsw2]

They absolutely could. It'd involve not timing the Euston end quite as slackly as it is now, but it's not impossible.

Well it's 'not impossible' I might fly to the Moon (stuff happens!) but I'm not expecting it.

 

[Starmill]

I fully expect that p15/16 at Manchester Piccadilly is included in the £12bn Liverpool connection.

Why do you? Sounds like something you've just made up to me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I mean, 30 something billion and they’re still not electrifying Windermere.

With Northern having stated they're ordering a load of bi-modes/battery units, that ship has probably now sailed.

 

[Parjon]

The project is going nowhere, because in case you've not noticed, rather a large part of it is under construction.

Oh! You mean the London-Birmingham railway! It's great that *both* our cities will get slightly faster journeys thanks to it. It's also good news that a ridiculous overprovision of passenger carrying capacity has been avoided.

The recently leaked fares data did not suggest any pressing need to more than quadruple the number of seats into Manchester.

 

[eldomtom2]

All the other "commitments" were reported on in BBC news.

I'm fairly certain the BBC has not reported on every single "commitment" that has been made by "Network North".

 

[Parjon]

I'm fairly certain the BBC has not reported on every single "commitment" that has been made by "Network North".

No. But I would expect them to mention something that has a £12bn price tag...

 

[Starmill]

Oh! You mean the London-Birmingham railway! It's great that *both* our cities will get slightly faster journeys thanks to it. It's also good news that a ridiculous overprovision of passenger carrying capacity has been avoided.

The recently leaked fares data did not suggest any pressing need to more than quadruple the number of seats into Manchester.

It's got nothing to do with speed as well you know. The lack of capacity at Euston and into Leeds, Manchester and Birmingham will not be ameliorated by the alternatives to HS2 put forward.

Finally the market sizes weren't leaked? And they didn't come with any numbers, only values, so I'd love to know how you got to that conclusion?

 

[Parjon]

It's got nothing to do with speed as well you know. The lack of capacity at Euston and into Leeds, Manchester and Birmingham will not be ameliorated by the alternatives to HS2 put forward.

Finally the market sizes weren't leaked? And they didn't come with any numbers, only values, so I'd love to know how you got to that conclusion?

Well, if you're suggesting that the leaked fares data doesn't equate equally to the last known passenger numbers, that Manchesters trains are overflowing... just with bargain basement fare payers... Then that would somewhat further undermine the argument would it not!!!

Manchesters HS2 couldn't wash its face. Be thankful you have our city region's vastly more massive level of train usage that can be leveraged to get you something!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

All the teeth gnashing and Manchester-invested/obsessed BBC coverage studiously ignoring that not only has "NPR" been recommitted to, but that £12bn has been ringfenced to deliver the necessary connectivity into Liverpool.

It's telling how skewed priorities have become that this kind of distortion is so widespread. And how prosperity for "the North" is far from their intent, versus fancy trains to London for them and them alone.

City Mayors will come round to proposals but couldn't be positive today given how oxygen they've pumped into trying to head off the cancellation of phase 2 without seeing what the alternative might be.

 

[Bayum]

What happens to all these who had their houses purchased via compulsory purchase orders? Are they going to be compensated?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No. But I would expect them to mention something that has a £12bn price tag...

They did, several times. It figured on Newsnight tonight as well.
It's also a budget provision, not a guarantee of any particular scheme, or doing Piccadilly P15/16.
As Henri Murison said tonight, a lot depends on whether they retain the HS2 Bill currently going through parliament for the Manchester leg.
I very much doubt that will survive today's administrative axe.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Absolutely, despite what the deluded folk in Greater Manchester think, it is.

Well I'm in Greater Manchester and I'm not deluded enough to think that Birmingham is anything other than England's Second City. Except when it comes to football. And airports. And trams. And even motorways.

 

[Parjon]

City Mayors will come round to proposals but couldn't be positive today given how oxygen they've pumped into trying to head off the cancellation of phase 2 without seeing what the alternative might be.

Let's hope you're right. Given how much of Manchesters new economy has been built on the back of hubris, an outflow of capital interests only needs to start for it to snowball.

 

[Tractor2018]

We're talking about the capacity from 2035 onwards, not this year...

So we build it and wait until 2035 to find out the capacity wasn't required after all.......if we believe what they're telling staff at the moment. Everybody's working from home apparently, and according to forum members rail wouldn't be missed if it vanished tomorrow.

If that's the case why are we building HS2. Scrap the whole damn lot.

 

[Meerkat]

Any chance we can have a separate ‘Tories Grrrrr/it’s all lies/it’ll never happen’ thread and keep this one for discussion of what is in the documents?

 

[Kingston Dan]

The full list is online.

I’ll believe it when I see it but it does mention reopening the Ivanhoe line:

Find out about every new transport project in your region

As a result of the decision to scrap the extension of HS2, every region will now receive investment in the modes of transport that matter to you most.

www.gov.uk

Interesting list with few numbers attached to the rail elements. If you add up the specific amounts allocated to road programmes it comes to £23.9 billion (and that excludes various uncosted road projects such as the A1 and A75 projects). So 2/3rds of investment previously allocated to a rail project is now going to road schemes.

Anyone who claims to be a supporter of rail investment who opposed HS2 is looking pretty sheepish tonight.

 

[Arkeeos]

Any chance we can have a separate ‘Tories Grrrrr/it’s all lies/it’ll never happen’ thread and keep this one for discussion of what is in the documents?

There is nothing new in the document, at best you can speculate what route the "NPR" takes, because its not in there. Its a bunch of stuff that might happen, that we already knew might happen. There's no routes to look at because there isn't a single map.

 

[BrianW]

Transparency of contract costs is poor on HS2 but VoestAlpine have £210m contract for 250 S&C units which include the point machines. These are for the main line as well as sidings and that is a very good price. The civils contract are are on target cost partnering basis so if any of them were going sour the delivering companies would have shown the white flag in their reprots and accounts by now but havent.

The stark reality as i say is HS2 Ltd are being very restrictive on where the costs have gone citing commercial confidence. Until an independent body is allowed in there to do a proper deep dive we will never know what has caused costs to spiral. Whats for sure is DafT have failed to exercise any sort of oversight here and like Crossrail the consultants supporting them are either ineffective or incapable of understanding what is happening.

Might it be that a truly independent study could possibly report that much of the increase in costs relates to chopping and changing, dither and delay, on the part of politicians, and complying with legislation passed by yes-politicians including those pandering to their nimby candidate selectors and electors resistant to development? I think I know the answer to that.

 

[Starmill]

So we build it and wait until 2035 to find out the capacity wasn't required after all.......if we believe what they're telling staff at the moment.

I don't see how that follows? Rather a lot of travel demand is predicted to change over that time. Even if you exclude everything except for background population growth that's still a rather large change.

Everybody's working from home apparently, and according to forum members rail wouldn't be missed if it vanished tomorrow.

OK but nobody is actually saying that are they. You can bring out all the hyperbole and bitterness you like but that doesn't mean you have a good point.

Any chance we can have a separate ‘Tories Grrrrr/it’s all lies/it’ll never happen’ thread and keep this one for discussion of what is in the documents?

Not really because what's been published is a speech, which is political and has no real details of anything, and a very, very short report which is incredibly thin on details.

 

[Wolfie]

To quote the PMs own preamble in the document.



This is deliberately misleading because what that actually means is over half the benefits were in fact in other places other than London and the South East.

Too damned right

Well I'm in Greater Manchester and I'm not deluded enough to think that Birmingham is anything other than England's Second City. Except when it comes to football. And airports. And trams. And even motorways.

Hahaha, like it!

 

[Arkeeos]

thin on details.

Understatement of the century, I keep saying this but there's just nothing there to discuss. We can't even verify the likely false journey times because there's no route published.

 

[Starmill]

What happens to all these who had their houses purchased via compulsory purchase orders? Are they going to be compensated?

If they've accepted a compulsory purchase offer they've already been compensated. What more do they require?

 

[BrianW]

The idea of an electrified network, really centred on Sheffield connecting the Northern cities and including Hull is very attractive as it integrates XC with ECML and future MML wiring. The BCR's will not be as good though, because one HS2 fat-cat will be worth twenty improved ordinary folk's journeys on faster, more capacious EMU's. The idea of a Penistone - Chesterfield service via Sheffield Victoria is "blue sky" to say the least.

Virtually the whole of Derbyshire went Conservative as part of the Red Wall ; Don Valley, Rother Valley and Penistone too. Surely some coincidence.

 

[Krokodil]

They've told staff the numbers and income aren't there to grant a proper payrise. If that's the case, the numbers aren't there, there's no need for any of the extra capacity - cancel the whole damned thing.

They are lying about passenger numbers. Bare-faced lying. Their own statistics contradict them.

are the pendolinos full as the moment.

Yes.

the latter perhaps needs more people pricing onto the via Brum service.

I think that we've seen enough of pricing people off because we haven't got the capacity. I'd like to see some capacity.

All the teeth gnashing and Manchester-invested/obsessed BBC coverage studiously ignoring that not only has "NPR" been recommitted to, but that £12bn has been ringfenced to deliver the necessary connectivity into Liverpool.

It's telling how skewed priorities have become that this kind of distortion is so widespread. And how prosperity for "the North" is far from their intent, versus fancy trains to London for them and them alone.

How - pray tell - is NPR going to get into central Manchester from Liverpool without the infrastructure provided by HS2?

If you believe the government's promises then I have a lovely bridge to sell you.

Virtually the whole of Derbyshire went Conservative as part of the Red Wall ; Don Valley, Rother Valley and Penistone too. Surely some coincidence.

Pretty much every last scheme on this crayon wish-list involves a marginal constituency.

 

[BrianW]

How - pray tell - is NPR going to get into central Manchester from Liverpool without the infrastructure provided by HS2?

I have a feeling that's going to be passed to Manchester and Merseyside Metro Mayors to sort out how to do that

 

[Arkeeos]

How - pray tell - is NPR going to get into central Manchester from Liverpool without the infrastructure provided by HS2?

The report indicates that the Manchester bits of phase 2a are still built, but the budget does not support that.

 

[EC54]

I take it this decision today will put an end to the ludicrous suggestion of driverless trains on the uk mainline by many posters when they get inconvienanced by drivers strikes. As i have always said never in any of our lifetimes will this happen the cost would be astronomical compared to HS2.