Prosecution due to a lie

[AnaMSadCommute]

I got a notice to a prosecution to lie that I swapped purchased e-ticket and I didn’t. I had open pay as you go ticket on some part of my journey and then I purchased a returned ticket for the other journey. I completed my pay as you go ticket once I got to my home station at Dartford so I had my journey covered with correct ticket. Should I worry and how would that affect my record? What should I do?

 

[island]

Can you please elaborate:

1) Where precisely were you travelling from and to?
2) What ticket did you purchase, and where and when did you purchase it? please state the stations from and to, and the price.
3) Where did you touch in and out for your pay as you go journey?
4) Do you have, or can you obtain, proof of travel on your pay as you go journey from http://contactless.tfl.gov.uk?
5) How did you receive your "notice to a prosecution"? Was it on a train, at a station, by email, by post...? Please upload a picture of it, blocking any personal information put.

 

[MotCO]

I got a notice to a prosecution to lie that I swapped purchased e-ticket and I didn’t.

Please can you clarify what you mean? You were asked to lie that you swapped tickets? Were you stopped by a ticket inspector?

 

[Haywain]

I got a notice to a prosecution

Have you received a summons from the court or a letter from a train company?

 

[AnaMSadCommute]

Can you please elaborate:

1) Where precisely were you travelling from and to?
2) What ticket did you purchase, and where and when did you purchase it? please state the stations from and to, and the price.
3) Where did you touch in and out for your pay as you go journey?
4) Do you have, or can you obtain, proof of travel on your pay as you go journey from http://contactless.tfl.gov.uk?
5) How did you receive your "notice to a prosecution"? Was it on a train, at a station, by email, by post...? Please upload a picture of it, blocking any personal information put.

1) my whole journey was from St Pancras to Gravesend and then Gravesend to Dartford.

2)I started my journey pay as you go from St Pancras via Dartford to Gravesend. St Pancras to Dartford is on pay as you go (£10.40) and return from Dartford to Gravesend via trainline e-ticket (£5.80)
I have proof for both tickets.

3) I tapped in at St Pancras’s & I only tapped out when I returned from Gravesend as I could not get out of the train at Darford in order to tapped out as I was on the train to Gravesend to meet with wound clinic so I carried on all the way to Gravesed. Because I did not stopped at Dartford I was not able to tapped out my pay as you go and swiped my return e-ticket to begin journey to Gravesend.

4) yes I have proof of both tickets and can provided tomorrow.

5) I received my notice at the train station. Please see attached the note

It was a true moment of panic and stupidity said wrong information thinking that they will just let me go since I had a ticket purchased for all my train journey.

Have you received a summons from the court or a letter from a train company?

No I have not yet. I just got a noticed which was handed to me at the station

Please can you clarify what you mean? You were asked to lie that you swapped tickets? Were you stopped by a ticket inspector?

I had pay as you go ticket from St Pancras but I did not stopped at Dartford to tapped out my pay as you go and swipe return e-ticket as I needed to be at that train to meet at wound clinic. I have my whole journey covered by the train but when I was asked if I swiped at Dartford I lied and they immediately issued me the prosecution note not accepting my apologies or my explanation.

Have you received a summons from the court or a letter from a train company?

It a notice from the inspector at the station as per attached in this post

 

[pokemonsuper9]

1) my whole journey was from St Pancras to Gravesend and then Gravesend to Dartford.

2)I started my journey pay as you go from St Pancras via Dartford to Gravesend. St Pancras to Dartford is on pay as you go (£10.40) and return from Dartford to Gravesend via trainline e-ticket (£5.80)
I have proof for both tickets.

3) I tapped in at St Pancras’s & I only tapped out when I returned from Gravesend as I could not get out of the train at Darford in order to tapped out as I was on the train to Gravesend to meet with wound clinic so I carried on all the way to Gravesed. Because I did not stopped at Dartford I was not able to tapped out my pay as you go and swiped my return e-ticket to begin journey to Gravesend.

4) yes I have proof of both tickets and can provided tomorrow.

5) I received my notice at the train station. Please see attached the note

It was a true moment of panic and stupidity said wrong information thinking that they will just let me go since I had a ticket purchased for all my train journey.


1) my whole journey was from St Pancras to Gravesend and then Gravesend to Dartford.

2)I started my journey pay as you go from St Pancras via Dartford to Gravesend. St Pancras to Dartford is on pay as you go (£10.40) and return from Dartford to Gravesend via trainline e-ticket (£5.80)
I have proof for both tickets.

3) I tapped in at St Pancras’s & I only tapped out when I returned from Gravesend as I could not get out of the train at Darford in order to tapped out as I was on the train to Gravesend to meet with wound clinic so I carried on all the way to Gravesed. Because I did not stopped at Dartford I was not able to tapped out my pay as you go and swiped my return e-ticket to begin journey to Gravesend.

4) yes I have proof of both tickets and can provided tomorrow.

5) I received my notice at the train station. Please see attached the note

It was a true moment of panic and stupidity said wrong information thinking that they will just let me go since I had a ticket purchased for all my train journey


No I have not yet. I just got a noticed which was handed to me at the station


I had pay as you go ticket from St Pancras but I did not stopped at Dartford to tapped out my pay as you go and swipe return e-ticket as I needed to be at that train to meet at wound clinic. I have my whole journey covered by the train but when I was asked if I swiped at Dartford I lied and they immediately issued me the prosecution note not accepting my apologies or my explanation.


It a notice from the inspector at the station as per attached in this post

I'd like to bring to your attention that the censoring of your name and postcode on the image was not fully effective and it can be read.

 

[AnaMSadCommute]

I'd like to bring to your attention that the censoring of your name and postcode on the image was not fully effective and it can be read.

Thank you!

1) my whole journey was from St Pancras to Gravesend and then Gravesend to Dartford.

2)I started my journey pay as you go from St Pancras via Dartford to Gravesend. St Pancras to Dartford is on pay as you go (£10.40) and return from Dartford to Gravesend via trainline e-ticket (£5.80)
I have proof for both tickets.

3) I tapped in at St Pancras’s & I only tapped out when I returned from Gravesend as I could not get out of the train at Darford in order to tapped out as I was on the train to Gravesend to meet with wound clinic so I carried on all the way to Gravesed. Because I did not stopped at Dartford I was not able to tapped out my pay as you go and swiped my return e-ticket to begin journey to Gravesend.

4) yes I have proof of both tickets and can provided tomorrow.

5) I received my notice at the train station. Please see attached the note

It was a true moment of panic and stupidity said wrong information thinking that they will just let me go since I had a ticket purchased for all my train journey.


1) my whole journey was from St Pancras to Gravesend and then Gravesend to Dartford.

2)I started my journey pay as you go from St Pancras via Dartford to Gravesend. St Pancras to Dartford is on pay as you go (£10.40) and return from Dartford to Gravesend via trainline e-ticket (£5.80)
I have proof for both tickets.

3) I tapped in at St Pancras’s & I only tapped out when I returned from Gravesend as I could not get out of the train at Darford in order to tapped out as I was on the train to Gravesend to meet with wound clinic so I carried on all the way to Gravesed. Because I did not stopped at Dartford I was not able to tapped out my pay as you go and swiped my return e-ticket to begin journey to Gravesend.

4) yes I have proof of both tickets and can provided tomorrow.

5) I received my notice at the train station. Please see attached the note

It was a true moment of panic and stupidity said wrong information thinking that they will just let me go since I had a ticket purchased for all my train journey


No I have not yet. I just got a noticed which was handed to me at the station


I had pay as you go ticket from St Pancras but I did not stopped at Dartford to tapped out my pay as you go and swipe return e-ticket as I needed to be at that train to meet at wound clinic. I have my whole journey covered by the train but when I was asked if I swiped at Dartford I lied and they immediately issued me the prosecution note not accepting my apologies or my explanation.


It a notice from the inspector at the station as per attached in this post

 

[MikeWh]

What exactly happened? Did your e-ticket fail in the barrier? Were you asked to show your ticket? How did the conversation go.

Also, can you check and copy your journey history from TfL tomorrow when you can see the full detail. It's possible that rather than closing your journey, you actually had two incomplete journeys. To close the journey you would need to have touched out within 2 hours 20 minutes from touching in at St Pancras.

For future reference, when making a PAYG journey, you MUST touch in and out at each end of the journey. If that meant waiting for the next train to Gravesend, then so be it.

 

[AnaMSadCommute]

What exactly happened? Did your e-ticket fail in the barrier? Were you asked to show your ticket? How did the conversation go.

Also, can you check and copy your journey history from TfL tomorrow when you can see the full detail. It's possible that rather than closing your journey, you actually had two incomplete journeys. To close the journey you would need to have touched out within 2 hours 20 minutes from touching in at St Pancras.

For future reference, when making a PAYG journey, you MUST touch in and out at each end of the journey. If that meant waiting for the next train to Gravesend, then so be it.

When I arrived at Gravesend station I was unable to tap my e-ticket as the inspectors were there so they checked my ticket and they could see it that it was not checked at Dartford.
I have both valid tickets.
I was also charged penalties for my pay as you go as it was more than 2hrs from the moment I tapped from start to the end- something I was not aware of.
I was heading to an appointment so I didn’t have a time to get out and tapped but I will not be making this journey again. I have no intention to put my foot down there.

Have you received a summons from the court or a letter from a train company?

No I have not, not yet

 

[island]

Did you travel directly from St Pancras to Gravesend via high speed service, or did you go via London Bridge? Pay as you go isn't valid on high speed other than between Stratford International and St Pancras.

 

[Snow1964]

Just to be clear you tried to use pay as you go St Pancras to Dartford (one way), but then needed to make extra journey Dartford-Gravesend (return), finishing in Dartford.

You bought an extra ticket for Dartford-Gravesend online. Did you buy this before the train reached Dartford (presumably yes, as does normally allow ticket to be bought after journey started), but please confirm or deny this.

There are 2 issues, ticket didn't work at exit barrier at Gravesend (but you had valid ticket if train you were on stopped at Dartford), this is no different to if you bought split tickets, as wouldn't have used entry barrier at Dartford. So the E-ticket is valid for this leg, but need a valid connecting ticket to Dartford.

You should have used E-ticket to exit at Dartford (it was valid return leg of Dartford-Gravesend), wouldn't have had the second incomplete journey.

You need to get TfL to complete the two incomplete journeys to complete the history. There is a time limit which you exceeded (by taking the extra journey). You will need this history to show a connecting ticket.

Your problem is Pay as you go isn't valid on high speed route south of Stratford, that is maybe why they suggested you say you used Thameslink to London Bridge and connected to a Dartford train (a valid Pay as you go route). I can't really recommend lying but it seems to me the Inspector caught you with valid E-ticket at Gravesend, but couldn't prove the route used for connection to Dartford, so raised it, so you can be sent a letter (probably in 5-10 weeks) asking for your version.

In simple terms, if you were caught at Exit barriers at Gravesend, the train you had used called at Dartford (or you changed trains there), and also had a valid ticket (or split ticket) to Dartford (which doesn't have to be bought at same time), then your E-ticket Dartford-Gravesend would be valid without having passed through entrance barriers at Dartford. There is no requirement to use barriers at intermediate points where multiple tickets for journey are held.

 

[island]

There are 2 issues, ticket didn't work at exit barrier at Gravesend (but you had valid ticket if train you were on stopped at Dartford)

Pay as you go is not valid unless touched in and out properly. If the OP even went via Dartford in the first place, which isn't clear, they would have needed to get off and touch out.

St Pancras to Dartford is on pay as you go (£10.40)

The pay as you go fare from St Pancras to Dartford (via London Bridge) is £8.80 peak and £5.20 off peak. How have you come up with £10.40?

 

[AnaMSadCommute]

Just to be clear you tried to use pay as you go St Pancras to Dartford (one way), but then needed to make extra journey Dartford-Gravesend (return), finishing in Dartford.

You bought an extra ticket for Dartford-Gravesend online. Did you buy this before the train reached Dartford (presumably yes, as does normally allow ticket to be bought after journey started), but please confirm or deny this.

There are 2 issues, ticket didn't work at exit barrier at Gravesend (but you had valid ticket if train you were on stopped at Dartford), this is no different to if you bought split tickets, as wouldn't have used entry barrier at Dartford. So the E-ticket is valid for this leg, but need a valid connecting ticket to Dartford.

You should have used E-ticket to exit at Dartford (it was valid return leg of Dartford-Gravesend), wouldn't have had the second incomplete journey.

You need to get TfL to complete the two incomplete journeys to complete the history. There is a time limit which you exceeded (by taking the extra journey). You will need this history to show a connecting ticket.

Your problem is Pay as you go isn't valid on high speed route south of Stratford, that is maybe why they suggested you say you used Thameslink to London Bridge and connected to a Dartford train (a valid Pay as you go route). I can't really recommend lying but it seems to me the Inspector caught you with valid E-ticket at Gravesend, but couldn't prove the route used for connection to Dartford, so raised it, so you can be sent a letter (probably in 5-10 weeks) asking for your version.

In simple terms, if you were caught at Exit barriers at Gravesend, the train you had used called at Dartford (or you changed trains there), and also had a valid ticket (or split ticket) to Dartford (which doesn't have to be bought at same time), then your E-ticket Dartford-Gravesend would be valid without having passed through entrance barriers at Dartford. There is no requirement to use barriers at intermediate points where multiple tickets for journey are held.

My return ticket was purchased before I started the journey.
I didn’t tapped in but it’s not first time as in the passed none of the personal at the gate had any issues. When I travelled for work ad similar situation happened I was told that it’s okay as I have ticket paid for.
I travel usually off peak so it comes to £10.40 a day.

 

[fandroid]

The pay as you go fare from St Pancras to Dartford (via London Bridge) is £8.80 peak and £5.20 off peak. How have you come up with £10.40?

Presumably two offpeak single journeys (in each direction) amounting to £10.40 total. I suspect the OP is referring to what the Dartford - St Pancras return journey normally costs them. With PAYG the actual cost is only visible on the account, when checked, and in this case has been complicated by the extra charge for apparently taking too long for that part of the journey.

 

[island]

Presumably two offpeak single journeys (in each direction) amounting to £10.40 total

The passenger said they travelled from St Pancras to Dartford via Gravesend. That doesn't correspond to £10.40.

My return ticket was purchased before I started the journey.
I didn’t tapped in but it’s not first time as in the passed none of the personal at the gate had any issues. When I travelled for work ad similar situation happened I was told that it’s okay as I have ticket paid for.
I travel usually off peak so it comes to £10.40 a day.

Please can you answer this question, as it is very important:

Did you travel directly from St Pancras to Gravesend via high speed service, or did you go via London Bridge? Pay as you go isn't valid on high speed other than between Stratford International and St Pancras.

 

[Deerfold]

The passenger said they travelled from St Pancras to Dartford via Gravesend. That doesn't correspond to £10.40.

St Pancras to Dartford to Gravesend to Dartford, only passing barriers at St Pancras, Gravesend and Dartford (2nd time). £10.40 is what they usually pay for St Pancras to Dartford return.

1) my whole journey was from St Pancras to Gravesend and then Gravesend to Dartford.

2)I started my journey pay as you go from St Pancras via Dartford to Gravesend. St Pancras to Dartford is on pay as you go (£10.40) and return from Dartford to Gravesend via trainline e-ticket (£5.80)
I have proof for both tickets.

3) I tapped in at St Pancras’s & I only tapped out when I returned from Gravesend as I could not get out of the train at Darford in order to tapped out as I was on the train to Gravesend to meet with wound clinic so I carried on all the way to Gravesed. Because I did not stopped at Dartford I was not able to tapped out my pay as you go and swiped my return e-ticket to begin journey to Gravesend.

I had pay as you go ticket from St Pancras but I did not stopped at Dartford to tapped out my pay as you go and swipe return e-ticket as I needed to be at that train to meet at wound clinic. I have my whole journey covered by the train but when I was asked if I swiped at Dartford I lied and they immediately issued me the prosecution note not accepting my apologies or my explanation.

 

[island]

St Pancras to Dartford to Gravesend to Dartford, only passing barriers at St Pancras, Gravesend and Dartford (2nd time). £10.40 is what they usually pay for St Pancakes to Dartford return.

This was in response to my question 2) of what ticket they held, not what they "usually pay", so I got confused. I still am a bit confused, but I suppose nothing much turns on this.

We need the OP to confirm whether they travelled on high speed or not.

 

[Snow1964]

We need the OP to confirm whether they travelled on high speed or not.

This is the only outstanding question, if they had a valid connecting ticket to Dartford, we already know they had purchased a return Dartford-Gravesend E-ticket before travelling.

Ticket checked at station exit at Gravesend, not a question of no ticket to Gravesend, just not used at entrance at Dartford, but that is not a problem if there is another valid ticket to Dartford. (Effectively 2 tickets like split tickets).

I may be wrong, but didn't think you can use PAYG as part of route unless you touch a validator on platform or entrance each end of the PAYG leg. The Op admits didn't touch out at Dartford before doing the E-ticket leg

 

[AnaMSadCommute]

This is the only outstanding question, if they had a valid connecting ticket to Dartford, we already know they had purchased a return Dartford-Gravesend E-ticket before travelling.

Ticket checked at station exit at Gravesend, not a question of no ticket to Gravesend, just not used at entrance at Dartford, but that is not a problem if there is another valid ticket to Dartford. (Effectively 2 tickets like split tickets).

I may be wrong, but didn't think you can use PAYG as part of route unless you touch a validator on platform or entrance each end of the PAYG leg. The Op admits didn't touch out at Dartford before doing the E-ticket leg

I have both ticket and yes you could do it but there is time limit on pay as you go which I was not aware of. I have proof for both journeys

This was in response to my question 2) of what ticket they held, not what they "usually pay", so I got confused. I still am a bit confused, but I suppose nothing much turns on this.

We need the OP to confirm whether they travelled on high speed or not.

I travel via London Bridge not high speed.

 

[Snow1964]

I travel via London Bridge not high speed.

So have fallen foul of not touching validator at Dartford before continuing journey with the E-ticket

I don't know layout of Dartford station, possibly doesn't have any exit validators if fully gated. But I suspect if you had touched out, then got on a train and continued your journey to Gravesend, wouldn't have had incomplete journey, but would have opened an exit gate for someone else to walk out. Which makes a bit of mockery of the required process. I will leave it to others how best to reply.

 

[island]

So technically speaking, pay as you go is only valid if you touch in and out. If you didn't touch out at Dartford on your way to Gravesend, you didn't have a valid ticket for that part of the journey.

However, it's not clear you have committed an offence. The usual offences are:

• Railway byelaw 18 (1) joining a train without a ticket – not applicable as you had a validated card entering the train
• Railway byelaw 18 (2) failing to present a ticket – not applicable as you presented a ticket when asked
• Regulation of Railways Act section 5 (1) Fail to produce ticket or pay fare or give name and address – assuming correct name and address were given this doesn't arise
• Regulation of Railways Act section 5 (3) Avoiding payment of fare with intent/travelling beyond destination with intent – there does not appear to be any intent

You will have to wait for Southeastern to write to you and then write back.

 

[MikeWh]

So technically speaking, pay as you go is only valid if you touch in and out. If you didn't touch out at Dartford on your way to Gravesend, you didn't have a valid ticket for that part of the journey.

However, it's not clear you have committed an offence. The usual offences are:

• Railway byelaw 18 (1) joining a train without a ticket – not applicable as you had a validated card entering the train
• Railway byelaw 18 (2) failing to present a ticket – not applicable as you presented a ticket when asked
• Regulation of Railways Act section 5 (1) Fail to produce ticket or pay fare or give name and address – assuming correct name and address were given this doesn't arise
• Regulation of Railways Act section 5 (3) Avoiding payment of fare with intent/travelling beyond destination with intent – there does not appear to be any intent

You will have to wait for Southeastern to write to you and then write back.

I concur with this. If you haven't already done so, please contact TfL and ask to have the two incomplete journeys changed into one journey from St Pancras to Dartford. You may be asked to provide proof of your ticket between Dartford and Gravesend, but you can do that if they do. Once it has been done, take screenshots or print pdfs of your journey history and payment history so you have a record that the single fare from St Pancras to Dartford has been paid, eventually.

It's then a question of what offence SE try to charge you with. Come back here once they write to you because if they are not careful they will pick the wrong one. It's certainly not an offence not to have an e-ticket inspected or swiped at the origin station.

To answer some other questions: Dartford has two island platforms linked by a footbridge with a third set of stairs/lifts down to the ticket hall which is also at platform level. Unless the train waits more than 2-3 minutes it is impossible to touch out and return to the same train. It's also one of the more secure stations as the gates are manned most of the time.

Whilst there are two ways to travel between St Pancras and Gravesend, I'm a little disappointed that posters here did not read the following excerpt from the OP and deduce that travel had in fact been made via Dartford.

2)I started my journey pay as you go from St Pancras via Dartford to Gravesend. St Pancras to Dartford is on pay as you go (£10.40) and return from Dartford to Gravesend via trainline e-ticket (£5.80)
I have proof for both tickets.

3) I tapped in at St Pancras’s & I only tapped out when I returned from Gravesend as I could not get out of the train at Darford in order to tapped out as I was on the train to Gravesend to meet with wound clinic so I carried on all the way to Gravesed. Because I did not stopped at Dartford I was not able to tapped out my pay as you go and swiped my return e-ticket to begin journey to Gravesend.

Edited to add point 2 in the quote which was the killer.

 

[fandroid]

You should contact TfL straight away as advised in post #22. Whatever else happens, you should be able to get them to refund additional charge they made for overtime on the journey from St. Pancras to Dartford. Then, as also advised in post #22, get screenshots of the revised journey history and the fares paid. Keep that as evidence to show to Southeastern if they do send a letter.