Northern CIS: uncared for?

[londonmidland]

I've noticed that with Northern, both onboard their trains, as well as at their stations, their CIS (customer information systems) is increasingly unreliable and poor sounding.

Onboard their trains, Northern are rolling out new voices for their automated announcements across their entire fleet, replacing the original voices, which I believe was introduced by Arriva(?) The new voices sound unprofessional, slow, as well as having some rather questionable pronunciations - "tu'" instead of 'to', for example. I've noticed various passengers make facial expressions in reaction to the announcements, as well as comments about how daft they now sound.

At the stations, the CIS is simply a mess. At various stations, the screens are either switched off or unable to display departures, with a URL and/or phone number displayed for live departures. The announcements at stations is no better, either. They either don't work, are far too quiet, or just cut out/are glitchy sounding. Wilmslow, for example, has had an issue with its P.A system for a number of years now, despite multiple messages sent to Northern explaining what is wrong with it.

In short, there are multiple faults with the system.

With Celia Drummond, the automated station announcer, having passed away quite a few years ago, any new sayings or words which need recording are botched in by another voice, making it all sound rather messy. There are random pauses and/or wild fluctuations in speed mid-sentence too.

I personally haven't noticed it this bad with any other TOCs. Why is it so bad for Northern?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The new Northern voices are I believe traincrew (or possibly other staff). This never really sounds professional - the old TPE one on the 185s as built was awful, for example, though its rude, clipped and abrupt tone was quite fitting for TPE as it was back then.

The old Victoria-Wood-esque voice was rather better, almost an audio brand in itself. They should have stuck with it.

It's interesting that in the (mostly-ignored) surveys about the 777, Merseyrail found people actually preferred the "Sathern"* voice used on the 507/508 and so kept it - they didn't necessarily want a Scouser to be doing the announcements.

I guess this will all be fairly moot soon as text to speech is getting good enough to use.

* I forget who it is, but she's used widely in the South East including Southern.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

* I forget who it is, but she's used widely in the South East including Southern.

Julie Berry

 

[Blindtraveler]

Julie berry is the answer you are looking for, her recordings are generally good although some of her newer stuff I find patronizing

As you correctly point out, TTS is the way forward here I am sad to say. You may wonder why I'm sad to say it, the answer is quite simple. I make my living or part of it by providing voice services to a number of outfits and organizations with a lot of work for the public sector particularly in health and education. The situation we now face is that we have to undercut the cost of an admin office temp feeding stuff through a TTS engine to actually continue to win any work and after a couple of years on the brink we are now on a definite downward trajectory heading for the bottom, this is unsustainable from a work point of view for myself and others who are not working in the same league as your Eleanor Hamilton's or whatever

 

[Purple Train]

I guess this will all be fairly moot soon as text to speech is getting good enough to use.

Albeit greatly inferior - don't get me started on the stresses!

A bad TTS engine is better than a bad human voice in my opinion, but a good TTS engine isn't a patch on a good human voice. Do TTS engines use the International Phonetic Alphabet, or does it just use the spelling?

 

[Bletchleyite]

A bad TTS engine is better than a bad human voice in my opinion, but a good TTS engine isn't a patch on a good human voice.

That's where the likes of Aviavox come in - it's TTS (ish), but it's based on recorded syllables from an actual human (with the option to re-record larger fragments if it gets them wrong) and so sounds a lot more natural. The Dutch accent grates a bit, but you could easily do a British one, you'd just have to record the syllables. The other languages (done by native speakers rather than the Dutch woman from Schiphol*) sound pretty good to be honest.

* We will proceed to offload your luggage.

Do TTS engines use the International Phonetic Alphabet, or does it just use the spelling?

In what context, sorry?

If you mean for generation, I think they just go off the spelling, but you can enter corrections if a particular word sounds odd.

 

[stadler]

The new onboard announcements are a joke. Previously with Trisha Jarman and the male voice it sounded great. These announcements were done by professional voice over artists and sounded very good and professional. So there was no reason to replace them. Now they bring in Peter Corley and Laura Palmer who are staff members with no experience in doing voiceovers. These new announcements sound cheap and unprofessional.

Now with Headbolt Lane open we have many units which have a female voice until it says Headbolt Lane and then it has a long pause and changes to a male voice. It just sounds utterly hideous and very cheap and unprofessional.

Northern Rail have completely neglected their station announcements. I believe this is a Northern issue rather than a Ketech issue as all other Ketech systems used at Chiltern and Irish Rail and Northern stations work fine.

The example mentioned of Wilmslow has been having this issue where part of words are cut off for over five years! Yes this issue has been going on for five years and Northern can not be bothered to sort it out! The announcements sound dreadful. Many station names you can barely understand because half of the word is cut out. One announcement can have like twenty words which are all partly cut out. Despite multiple people reporting this it has never been fixed.

I can think of eight Northern stations where the volume is so low that you can barely hear the announcement! This is one of the simplest issues to solve by simply turning up the volume! But yet they have still just never bothered to sort this out. What is the point of having any announcements if you can not even hear them.

Then you stations that are out of sync and only play the announcement once the train has left. Other stations skip out parts of announcements. Honestly i think at least 90% of Northern stations have something wrong with the announcements. I have never known such a poorly maintained system.

Headbolt Lane and Reston have both still not been recorded for the station announcements. So trains calling at these stations are being ignored. I do wonder what will happen when all the Northumberland stations open up. Seeing how incompetent Northern are i would not be surprised if they can not announce those either.

The thing is Northern are very much aware of all of these issues. I have reported these issues to them multiple times. I personally know six other people who have also reported issues. Plus just have a look on Twitter and Facebook and people are reporting problems with the announcements every day. So they are aware but are just doing nothing. It seems like Northern just do not care at all.

 

[Gaelan]

I guess this will all be fairly moot soon as text to speech is getting good enough to use.

Link Light Rail in Seattle has (what I assume are) TTS announcements. They're rather grating and often make a mess of the intonation, certainly not something I'd like to see reproduced elsewhere.

 

[Purple Train]

That's where the likes of Aviavox come in - it's TTS (ish), but it's based on recorded syllables from an actual human (with the option to re-record larger fragments if it gets them wrong) and so sounds a lot more natural. The Dutch accent grates a bit, but you could easily do a British one, you'd just have to record the syllables. The other languages (done by native speakers rather than the Dutch woman from Schiphol*) sound pretty good to be honest.

* We will proceed to offload your luggage.



In what context, sorry?

If you mean for generation, I think they just go off the spelling, but you can enter corrections if a particular word sounds odd.

I do mean for generation, sorry - I don't speak computer language!

That does sound interesting, yes, and a decent compromise. I have a bit of a prejudice against TTS after hearing the really dreadful East Midlands one a few too many times while living there...

 

[setdown]

Do (did) the South Western Railway 707s have TTS for announcements? 95% of the announcements sounded fine, but then there'd be some odd emphasis on syllables here and there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That does sound interesting, yes, and a decent compromise. I have a bit of a prejudice against TTS after hearing the really dreadful East Midlands one a few too many times while living there...

I don't think the ones used at WMT stations are that bad. They aren't perfect, but they do have increased flexibility (e.g. the ability to announce anything that is typed under Special Notices) which offsets that a bit.

 

[richfoz84]

Northern’s new announcers are staff members and volunteered to re record the onboard announcements. Better than the computer sounding robot voice that it replaced (in my opinion).

You can’t please everyone I guess!

 

[td97]

There's also a problem on certain routes when a 4 carriage train is used, and the "passengers for XX and XX should travel in the front 2/3 carriages" announcement is played, despite all 4 carriages being fully platformed.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Headbolt Lane and Reston have both still not been recorded for the station announcements. So trains calling at these stations are being ignored. I do wonder what will happen when all the Northumberland stations open up. Seeing how incompetent Northern are i would not be surprised if they can not announce those either.

With Celia Dummond being dead for a few years, Northern should simply graft another female voice into the system for both Reston and Headbolt Lane as a short term fix until a new announcer is found to re-record the lot including voicing in stations that could yet be (re)built e.g. Thongsbridge, Holmfirth, Burton Agnes, Pickering South, Cleckheaton Central, etc as that way the sound files can be simply edited in or in a phonetic sense - elements can be cut n shut together.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Can we talk about the appalling design of the Passenger Information Display screens on the 323s?

Text scrolling between lines and pages, overly wordy announcements.

Surely better to have a couple of lines

Destination: Manchester Picc
Next Stop: Cheadle (14:05)

Clear and all that's needed.

 

[stadler]

Do (did) the South Western Railway 707s have TTS for announcements? 95% of the announcements sounded fine, but then there'd be some odd emphasis on syllables here and there.

Yes indeed Acapela Rachael is the SWR/SWT 707 voice. She is a Text To Speech voice and is also used at some of the smaller East Midlands Railway and Southeastern stations. I believe the SWR/SWT 707 are the only trains to use a Text To Speech voice.

I don't think the ones used at WMT stations are that bad. They aren't perfect, but they do have increased flexibility (e.g. the ability to announce anything that is typed under Special Notices) which offsets that a bit.

Yes i do quite like the Ivona Amy announcements used at LNWR/WMR stations. It is certainly one of the best Text To Speech voices out there. One of the main benefits of Text To Speech is that when new stations open they can be announced straight away without having to arrange new recordings.

With Celia Dummond being dead for a few years, Northern should simply graft another female voice into the system for both Reston and Headbolt Lane as a short term fix until a new announcer is found to re-record the lot including voicing in stations that could yet be (re)built e.g. Thongsbridge, Holmfirth, Burton Agnes, Pickering South, Cleckheaton Central, etc as that way the sound files can be simply edited in or in a phonetic sense - elements can be cut n shut together.

Northern did get "Only Woman" (the Amey lady who used to be at, Brighton, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, London Victoria, and all Virgin Trains stations) to record two new recordings for "Lumo" and "for a connecting bus service" about a year ago. So i wonder why they did not get her to record all of the other new stations that are opening soon at the same time. They could have also got her to record "Headbolt Lane" and "Reston" as well. Almost all voiceover artists charge by the hour so they could have easily gotten her to record all these new stations at no extra cost.

Also it seems odd that they got "Lumo" recorded for just a few trains a day at Morpeth but yet "Avanti West Coast" and "Transport For Wales" who serve multiple Northern stations multiple times an hour have still not been recorded and are unable to be announced. I do wonder if Lumo paid Northern for this.

But seriously Northern need to their act together and get Headbolt Lane and Reston recorded. Next year we have all the Northumberland stations, Ashington, Bedlington, Blyth Bebside, Newsham, Northumberland Park, Seaton Deleval, which will open. I believe East Linton and White Rose will open next year too. If they do not get their act together we will soon have dozens of stations that the system can not announce.

 

[josh-j]

What is wrong with saying "tu" instead of "to"?

How is it different to having real time announcements over the tannoy, with all flavours of accents as happens on a regular basis? I quite like them.

 

[Tracked]

Noticed it a bit recently, was at Bentley station the other week and the display wasn't working, and hadn't been for several days. The recent pronunciation changes seemed to go a bit weird; they're not shouting WAKEFIELD WESTGATE now, but South Elmsall was being pronounced South Elms-hall for a bit, a few weeks ago it disappeared from announcements on the train I was on, replaced by a silent pause, after several repeats the guard eventually did a manual announcement

Had the platform too short announcement for Bentley when the 331's first started, seems to have calmed down now.

 

[driverd]

Sorry to be late to the party but, what on earth is TTS? Is it an app people have to install?

How is it the answer to pre-recorded announcements?

 

[Bantamzen]

Northern’s new announcers are staff members and volunteered to re record the onboard announcements. Better than the computer sounding robot voice that it replaced (in my opinion).

You can’t please everyone I guess!

Terrible isn't it? Using Northerners to record announcements for use on Northern trains used mainly by Northern people. So unprofessional....

"Na'then, this is t'ten-o-three to Ilkley. T'next stop 'ill b Guiseley. If this is yer stop, get the'sen off on t'left of train an stop mucking about, I ain't got all chuffing day tha'nos...."

 

[Parallel]

Also it seems odd that they got "Lumo" recorded for just a few trains a day at Morpeth but yet "Avanti West Coast" and "Transport For Wales" who serve multiple Northern stations multiple times an hour have still not been recorded and are unable to be announced. I do wonder if Lumo paid Northern for this.

Side note but Celia does announce ‘Avanti West Coast’ now at the relevant Northern stations, there’s a video of Wilmslow station online where it’s captured. She still doesn’t say Transport for Wales though.

 

[Gaelan]

Sorry to be late to the party but, what on earth is TTS? Is it an app people have to install?

Text-to-speech. It's a term for software that generates a computer-generated voice from written (well, typed) text. It's the same technology that, say, Siri or Alexa uses.

The more traditional approach is to have an actual person in a recording studio record a bunch of phrases, then have a computer piece them together to produce announcements. Generally this generates a somewhat higher-quality output (though TTS is improving), but has the disadvantage that if you ever need a new phrase (new TOCs and stations are a common reason), you need to get that person back into the studio to record them.

As far as the passenger experience is concerned, it's basically identical - you hear overhead announcements either way. It's just about how they're produced.

 

[Llandudno]

Much prefer regional accents on local services..

Wales: Ruth Jones of Gavin & Stacey fame (12 months ago I would have said Huw Edwards!)
Northern: David Lloyd (former cricketer and commentator)
Northern - North East: Tim Healy
West Midlands: Jasper Carrott
Merseyrail: Jamie Carragher
Scotrail: Ally McCoist
South East: Brian Winston
South West: Josh Widdicombe

and for Greater Anglia: Alan Partridge!

For those that can’t understand a word any of the above are saying there is always the rolling PIS on board for use as subtitles!

 

[Mat17]

The new voices sound unprofessional, slow, as well as having some rather questionable pronunciations - "tu'" instead of 'to', for example...

Is this that questionable?

It's not uncommon for 'to' to be pronounced as 'tu' in the North, especially Yorkshire. When I hear it pronounced 'tue' I think of the word 'too'.

It's merely a different accent, in the same way when southerners say 'room' as if it's the drink 'rum'.

I don't see anything wrong with Northern trains using Northern accents when a fair proportion of the passengers also speak in much the same way. Now if the accent was used as an announcer for trains running around Kent or Devon, then yes I think it would be questionable.

 

[YorksLad12]

For those that can’t understand a word any of the above are saying there is always the rolling PIS on board for use as subtitles!

Fat lot of use that is to the blind or partially sighted.

 

[stadler]

Side note but Celia does announce ‘Avanti West Coast’ now at the relevant Northern stations, there’s a video of Wilmslow station online where it’s captured. She still doesn’t say Transport for Wales though.

Ah good to know that Avanti West Coast can finally be announced. I just seen your video online of it being announced. It sounds like a very new recording so it must have been recorded just before Celia Drummond passed away. Transport For Wales started almost two years before Avanti West Coast started so if they got Celia Drummond to record Avanti West Coast then why not Transport For Wales too.

 

[olivfry]

Side note but Celia does announce ‘Avanti West Coast’ now at the relevant Northern stations, there’s a video of Wilmslow station online where it’s captured. She still doesn’t say Transport for Wales though.

Sorry I’m late to the party, I don’t think Celia announces Avanti West Coast at Blackpool?

 

[TUC]

On the Northern service I was on yesterday the conductor was doing her own announcements. They were far more effective, and engaging on a human level, than any recorded announcements.

 

[weastebusdepot]

Ah good to know that Avanti West Coast can finally be announced. I just seen your video online of it being announced. It sounds like a very new recording so it must have been recorded just before Celia Drummond passed away. Transport For Wales started almost two years before Avanti West Coast started so if they got Celia Drummond to record Avanti West Coast then why not Transport For Wales too.

They never got her to do "a short notice change to the timetable" so now you get announcements at stations a train "has been cancelled due to..." then nothing, which makes the whole thing just sound amateurish!

 

[Purple Train]

Can we talk about the appalling design of the Passenger Information Display screens on the 323s?

Text scrolling between lines and pages, overly wordy announcements.

Surely better to have a couple of lines

Destination: Manchester Picc
Next Stop: Cheadle (14:05)

Clear and all that's needed.

And of course, "mind the gap between the train and the platform"

"edge".

Though it's not as bad as on the 155/158/170s (and probably the 150/156s as well) where it has ">>>" before and after each page - I can imagine it causing confusion for foreign tourists* who have a degree of familiarity with the English language.

*Yes, even in Hull.