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Why a 49-mile journey in Wales takes seven hours

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Merle Haggard

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Democracies are in trouble because people are unable to apply the slightest amount of critical thinking to their reading and instead expect the media to think for them.

Like most of the posters in this thread, whose reaction to reading something they disagree with is "OMG BBC non-story waste of money MUST BE STOPPED" rather than "oh, I just read something I disagree with, which is something I should expect to happen regularly in everyday life".

Not disagreeing with your broad point; but you're talking about differences of opinion. The B.B.C. item is under 'News' not 'Opinion' or "Editorial' and there are details which are implied therefore as being fact that could be disputed - because posters believe they're wrong. That's something different.

My apologies, I didn't realise Ernest Marples was a labour politician who in 1961 appointed his Labour friend Mr B Ching.

Perhaps Labour should have stepped in to prevent it once they took power but the damage was already done. By the Tories.

Their manifesto, and promises by their Shadow Minister of Transport, promised that they would not only 'stop the Beeching cuts' but 'reverse them'.

One of my first disappointments with politicians (of all parties)...
 
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bluenoxid

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The article irritated me when I saw it because I’ve seen the format done before and it will be done to death in relentlessly if they open to Tavistock.

Just spotting the distance being not as bad as I expected it to be, would a cycle route and/or bus road be a serious contender here or are the hills/tunnels required just too difficult
 

slowroad

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Not disagreeing with your broad point; but you're talking about differences of opinion. The B.B.C. item is under 'News' not 'Opinion' or "Editorial' and there are details which are implied therefore as being fact that could be disputed - because posters believe they're wrong. That's something different.



Their manifesto, and promises by their Shadow Minister of Transport, promised that they would not only 'stop the Beeching cuts' but 'reverse them'.

One of my first disappointments with politicians (of all parties)...
Good job they didn’t reverse them, or the railway would be even more trouble now. Surely no-one now seriously disputes that the Beeching strategy was broadly (with some clear exceptions) right?
 

6Gman

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Rather pointless journey that no-one local or indeed sane would make. If it was to be more accurate, it would remind people which clueless, crooked political party decided there was no longer a need for a railway line between the two in 1965. Reopening this line should be a long term aspiration for the Welsh Assembly.
I'm old enough (just!) to have actually used a Aberystwyth - Carmarthen train.

Even then it was little used.

Rebuilding would be expensive and disruptive. Running it would require a substantial annual subsidy for little use.
 

eldomtom2

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Good job they didn’t reverse them, or the railway would be even more trouble now. Surely no-one now seriously disputes that the Beeching strategy was broadly (with some clear exceptions) right?
The thing with evaluating "the Beeching strategy" is that Beeching only got the first stage of his plan implemented. Beeching is judged based on what he got rather than what he wanted, which is not exactly fair.

On a separate note, if I was in Beeching's place I probably would have kept the line open on the basis of network connectivity - if you closed most of the intermediate stations you could get competitive with driving travel times. Of course it's far easier not to close something than to reopen it, and there are definitely far more deserving candidates for reopening.
 

Doctor Fegg

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Not disagreeing with your broad point; but you're talking about differences of opinion. The B.B.C. item is under 'News' not 'Opinion' or "Editorial' and there are details which are implied therefore as being fact that could be disputed - because posters believe they're wrong. That's something different.
Kind of. But the difference tends to be overstated (thanks for that, CP Scott).

An example. I used to edit waterway magazines. We had pages upon pages of news, much like some railway magazines do. Our news was news and our opinion was opinion and never the twain shall meet.

But, of course, our news all came from the starting point that canals were a good thing, because we were a waterway magazine. So when we reported on (say) the restoration and eventual reopening of the Droitwich Canals, inevitably we spent more time on "the A449 underpass has been completed" or "this is going to be the first new staircase lock for N years" or "the first boat for N years has passed through Vines Park". Not, for example, "this is destroying lots of reeds where water voles might live" or "this is resulting in the gentrification of a previously working class settlement" or "this is spending a whole lot of Worcestershire taxpayers' money", all of which would also have been valid impartial news stories. I have no doubt that if you read a story in Floating Water Plantain Preservation Monthly it would have taken a different tack. (Roger Scruton used to write vituperative screeds in the Telegraph about how evil the Cotswold Canals restoration is.)

All news reporting has in-built biases like this. Saying that Carmarthen–Aberystwyth is a no-hoper of a scheme – as many people upthread have done – is an opinion too, not a fact. Granted, it is the prevailing opinion. This prevailing opinion is broadly that benefit:cost ratio is the correct measure of assessing these things, and that a rail reopening with a very poor BCR is therefore not worthwhile. But it's not the only opinion. You could argue that social cohesion would be well served by reopening. You could argue that an exemplar scheme would get people more broadly thinking about their travel choices. They're minority opinions, but they're still valid.

The biggest failing of the BBC IMO is that it tends to internalise the prevailing opinion - it is very small-C conservative. That's its in-built bias, just as our in-built bias as a waterway magazine was "canals are good". So I'm actually quite pleased to see this short, fairly trivial BBC piece on Carmarthen–Aberystwyth. It doesn't make it any more likely that the railway will ever reopen – in fact, it doesn't even mention the possibility. But it's a pleasant surprise to see the BBC making a very slight departure from the single-opinion orthodoxy.

(Personally I think the old trackbed would make a marvellous cycle route, but that's another thread entirely. ;) )
 
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stuu

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(Personally I think the old trackbed would make a marvellous cycle route, but that's another thread entirely. ;) )
Most of Tregaron-Aberystwyth already is... probably moves more people than it ever did ad a railway
 

mrcheek

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The answer is to drive.
this is what I was thinking. If you choose to live in such an area, then you have to have a car. or motorbike.

Or are we to assume that people are moving to the area from far away, and are showing up and saying "What? they closed the railway line over 50 years ago? Why did nobody tell me before I moved here?"
 

Revilo

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The BBC news website has been headed this way for quite a while now. It’s turning into a cross between the Daily Mail website and an old Reader’s Digest magazine, particularly at the weekend.
Hardly the Daily Mail, more like the Guardian given it’s left-wing, London-centric bias (not calling Hamas terrorists for example).
 

John Luxton

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I used the T1 twice this year, once in each direction, on an Explore Wales Rover (which is valid on the bus) starting out from Chester. The bus appeared to offer a good service and ran on time connecting with the trains I used. It my itinerary only fell apart on the second trip where delays at Swansea led to a missed connection at Cardiff Central then a cancellation and further delays on the leg back to Chester.

The only slightly nagging thing with the bus is the continuous audio announcements announcing each stop both in English and Welsh. They were switched off on the first trip (northbound) but switched on the second trip (southbound). I would rather just have a silent ride.
 

fandroid

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The mental split between buses and trains in this country baffles me. That Wales should have it too is barmy. Wales's population away from north and south coasts really doesn't justify the huge capital and running costs of fixed rail links to cover the gaps. Those serious missing links in the rail system, like Aberystwyth to Carmarthen and Pwllheli to Bangor should have bus services that are included in the national rail timetable and have through ticketing too. So it should be possible to buy one ticket for say Barmouth to Lampeter and one ticket for Barmouth to Bangor, each valid on a combination of trains and buses on the most direct routes.
 

Oxfordblues

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I believe it would help if the nationalrail journey planner made reference to more-suitable bus services where appropriate.

For example, if you are to believe the official website, Porthmadog to Blaenau Ffestiniog is a journey of 6 hours 44 minutes via Shrewsbury and Llandudno Junction and costs £56.80: https://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/PTM/BFF/090124/0745/dep

Who on Earth would consider that a sensible option? (except perhaps the odd gricer!) One small step towards the panacea of an integrated public transport system as promised by John Prescott (remember him?) would be for the Porthmadog-Blaenau bus which takes just 32 minutes to be shown as the preferred option for such a journey, and there are many similar examples such as Fort William-Inverness.
 
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One small step towards the panacea of an integrated public transport system as promised by John Prescott (remember him?) would be for the Porthmadog-Blaenau bus which takes just 32 minutes to be shown as the preferred option for such a journey
Of course, there are many on here and elsewhere who'd consider the preferred option for that particular journey to be neither the national rail network nor the bus!
 

John Luxton

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I believe it would help if the nationalrail journey planner made reference to more-suitable bus services where appropriate.

For example, if you are to believe the official website, Porthmadog to Blaenau Ffestiniog is a journey of 6 hours 44 minutes via Shrewsbury and Llandudno Junction and costs £56.80: https://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/PTM/BFF/090124/0745/dep

Who on Earth would consider that a sensible option? (except perhaps the odd gricer!) One small step towards the panacea of an integrated public transport system as promised by John Prescott (remember him?) would be for the Porthmadog-Blaenau bus which takes just 32 minutes to be shown as the preferred option for such a journey, and there are many similar examples such as Fort William-Inverness.
Surely the preferred option would be the Ffestiniog Railway?

When the FR made it to Blaenau much was made of the "Ffestiniog Link" with route maps in the carriages showing the link between the Conwy Valley and Cambrian Lines.

Sadly this promotion tailed off and with the recent post Covid "experiences" modus operandi of the FRCo the convenience of using the link isn't really promoted at all.

However, on a couple of occasions this year I left the car at home and visited Porthmadog via the FR and I was pleased to note I wasn't the only person changing trains.

If one studies the timetable even under the "experiences" joy ride model a connection still exists - it just needs to be promoted more.

There have been up to three trains per day this season.
 

urbophile

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What's coming up next from the BBC in this mini-series of "Not So Great British Rail Jouneys"? Whitby to Scarborough by rail, perhaps? Dumfries to Stranraer?
Well yes, but at least between those pairs you don't have to travel through another country. Whereas between mid and north Wales you have to go through England to get to the south. It might be economic nonsense to construct a direct rail link, but it just shows how Wales's transport network, and economy in general, has been formed by the needs of England.
 

Merle Haggard

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Kind of. But the difference tends to be overstated (thanks for that, CP Scott).

An example. I used to edit waterway magazines. We had pages upon pages of news, much like some railway magazines do. Our news was news and our opinion was opinion and never the twain shall meet.

But, of course, our news all came from the starting point that canals were a good thing, because we were a waterway magazine. So when we reported on (say) the restoration and eventual reopening of the Droitwich Canals, inevitably we spent more time on "the A449 underpass has been completed" or "this is going to be the first new staircase lock for N years" or "the first boat for N years has passed through Vines Park". Not, for example, "this is destroying lots of reeds where water voles might live" or "this is resulting in the gentrification of a previously working class settlement" or "this is spending a whole lot of Worcestershire taxpayers' money", all of which would also have been valid impartial news stories. I have no doubt that if you read a story in Floating Water Plantain Preservation Monthly it would have taken a different tack. (Roger Scruton used to write vituperative screeds in the Telegraph about how evil the Cotswold Canals restoration is.)

All news reporting has in-built biases like this. Saying that Carmarthen–Aberystwyth is a no-hoper of a scheme – as many people upthread have done – is an opinion too, not a fact. Granted, it is the prevailing opinion. This prevailing opinion is broadly that benefit:cost ratio is the correct measure of assessing these things, and that a rail reopening with a very poor BCR is therefore not worthwhile. But it's not the only opinion. You could argue that social cohesion would be well served by reopening. You could argue that an exemplar scheme would get people more broadly thinking about their travel choices. They're minority opinions, but they're still valid.

The biggest failing of the BBC IMO is that it tends to internalise the prevailing opinion - it is very small-C conservative. That's its in-built bias, just as our in-built bias as a waterway magazine was "canals are good". So I'm actually quite pleased to see this short, fairly trivial BBC piece on Carmarthen–Aberystwyth. It doesn't make it any more likely that the railway will ever reopen – in fact, it doesn't even mention the possibility. But it's a pleasant surprise to see the BBC making a very slight departure from the single-opinion orthodoxy.

(Personally I think the old trackbed would make a marvellous cycle route, but that's another thread entirely. ;) )

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
 

slowroad

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Well yes, but at least between those pairs you don't have to travel through another country. Whereas between mid and north Wales you have to go through England to get to the south. It might be economic nonsense to construct a direct rail link, but it just shows how Wales's transport network, and economy in general, has been formed by the needs of England.
More by geography, surely?
 

6Gman

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Well yes, but at least between those pairs you don't have to travel through another country. Whereas between mid and north Wales you have to go through England to get to the south. It might be economic nonsense to construct a direct rail link, but it just shows how Wales's transport network, and economy in general, has been formed by the needs of England.
It reflects economic structures, social structures and physical geography.

For the small (but vocal) minority who seem to object to a journey between two Welsh towns taking them through England are they proposing an Abergavenny - Shotton shadow Marches line to avoid Rhyl-Cardiff having to pass through the likes of Gobowen, Leominster and Hereford?
 

urbophile

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More by geography, surely?
Both. Geography dictated that coalmines were located in the S Wales valleys; the dominant, colonising, English economy built the railway lines to ship most of the coal out of Wales. Similarly the North Wales coast line was the through route to (colonised) Ireland via Holyhead.
 

DelW

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Well yes, but at least between those pairs you don't have to travel through another country. Whereas between mid and north Wales you have to go through England to get to the south. It might be economic nonsense to construct a direct rail link, but it just shows how Wales's transport network, and economy in general, has been formed by the needs of England.
Unless or until Wales not only becomes independent, but also withdraws from the Common Travel Area which covers Great Britain and Ireland, that has no practical significance whatsoever. I imagine that most travellers on the Marches or Central Wales lines don't know or care at what points they cross the border or how many times. Since car and bus passengers can already travel between north and south Wales within its borders, spending hundreds of millions of pounds just so that a rather small number of rail travellers can say "I didn't have to travel via England" seems an odd priority.
 

stuu

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It's a disgrace that you have to travel via another country to get to the fourth largest Welsh city. The Mid Wales line must be reopened as a matter of urgency
 

Jim the Jim

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A rail link between these two towns would open up a whole host of journey possibilities between north and south, so it shouldn't be dismissed simply because the towns themselves don't have much demand between them. (That's not to say there might not be other reasons not to bother with it.)
 

al78

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Well yes, but at least between those pairs you don't have to travel through another country. Whereas between mid and north Wales you have to go through England to get to the south. It might be economic nonsense to construct a direct rail link, but it just shows how Wales's transport network, and economy in general, has been formed by the needs of England.
I remember a documentary a very long time ago which I think was about Britains worst roads and it had one chapter along these lines. I think it was driving between two towns or cities from north to south Wales along the A470, which was such a slow and tortuous road it was quicker to go via England down the M6.

More by geography, surely?
I would have thought so too. Much of Wales is a bit like the Scottish highlands, hilly/mountainous with transport routes funnelled along the easiest routes (usually the valleys), and a low population density in many places resulting in a sparse bus and train service compared to lowland England.
 

slowroad

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Both. Geography dictated that coalmines were located in the S Wales valleys; the dominant, colonising, English economy built the railway lines to ship most of the coal out of Wales. Similarly the North Wales coast line was the through route to (colonised) Ireland via Holyhead.
Given the geography and the large population centres in England, any realistic development path would have resulted in East West flows dominating, even if Wales was politically independent.

Wales is not and never was a colony as its population participates in the UK political process on the same basis as people in England.
 

Dr Hoo

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I still find it extremely surprising that after the 1964 general election the new government, with a manifesto commitment to halt major rail closures still allowed several strategic Welsh withdrawals to go ahead: Carmarthen-Aberystwyth, Afon Wen-Caernarvon, Morfa Mawddach-Ruabon and Welshpool-Oswestry were all still open.

I get that other links like the Mid Wales lines via Brecon/Three Cocks Junction and the 'Heads of Valleys' had already gone, even before the Reshaping Report, but late-1964 to 1965 was really when any idea of an 'intra-Wales' network slipped beyond possible recovery.
 

norbitonflyer

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there are many similar examples such as Fort William-Inverness.
Not quiote the same as there never was a rail link between the two - although there were lake steamers making the connection between Fort Augustus and Inverness, and ca-Mac (used to?) run a service between mallaig and Kyle of Localsh.

Similar gaps exist, thanks to Beeching all over the country: for example:L
- Whitby - Scarborough
- Grimsby - Skegness
- Plymouth - Okehampton
even
- Denham - Uxbridge
- Uxbridge - West Drayton
- West Drayton - Staines
 

CardiffKid

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It's a disgrace that you have to travel via another country to get to the fourth largest Welsh city. The Mid Wales line must be reopened as a matter of urgency
I trust there’s a huge dose of sarcasm here?
 

zwk500

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A rail link between these two towns would open up a whole host of journey possibilities between north and south, so it shouldn't be dismissed simply because the towns themselves don't have much demand between them. (That's not to say there might not be other reasons not to bother with it.)
If you opened the line between these towns, which journeys with an origin or destination outside the corridor would be enabled that can't be easily made today? And of those, which offer a decent ridership or revenue potential to justify the cost of a train over the cost of say, a better bus.
 
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