SWR Class 458 to be retained

[D6130]

but that is not the reason SWR do not plan to use them in passenger service.

So what is the reason?

 

[TEW]

So what is the reason?

They don't need them. With the service reductions post covid the 444s, 450s and 701s easily cover all the EMU needs.

 

[Siemens Staines]

Do SWR not need some 458/4 to be used in the interim between 458/5 leaving for Widnes and 701s entering service? I notice that 27 of the 28 458/5s were in passenger service this morning (their 25 diagrams + what was the last 2*707 diagram) and that is before 458524 leaves the fold. I am just curious about how the transition will be managed.

 

[Invincible]

SWR have no plans to run them in passenger service, and ASLEF want a cab refurbishment if they are used in passenger service, but that is not the reason SWR do not plan to use them in passenger service.

What's your source for this or is it just speculation, perhaps rumours the DfT are concerned about SWR having too many trains?

Everything published back in 2021 says the refurbished 458s will enter service on SWR as south coast express trains.

Porterbrook selects Alstom to upgrade Class 458 train fleet

Porterbrook has entered into a £25m contract with Alstom to upgrade a fleet of Class 458 electric multiple units.

www.railway-technology.com

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Strange logic to take on extra stock only never to use them, would it make more sense to take these off lease permanently?

As discussed many times already, there are already numerous 450s leased by SWR, many more of these than 444s, also with the 350/2s when avaliable, it would be more practical to have a dedicated pool of 450s (also combined with 350/2s converted to 450s) with 2+2 intercity layouts for PDL services as some 450s may not be required due to less commuters and more of working from home?

 

[SWT_USER]

So as I understand it we now have the ridiculous situation where SWR are short on stock but are currently withdrawing their third fleet in the past few years (442, 707 and now 458) with no sign of the long promised 701's entering service?

Really poor, particularly on the Windsor side where services have already been slashed, now more and more existing services will be shortened from 10 to 8 car... And then further short formations when there are inevitably more unit faults.

 

[swt_passenger]

Strange logic to take on extra stock only never to use them, would it make more sense to take these off lease permanently?

As discussed many times already, there are already numerous 450s leased by SWR, many more of these than 444s, also with the 350/2s when avaliable, it would be more practical to have a dedicated pool of 450s (also combined with 350/2s converted to 450s) with 2+2 intercity layouts for PDL services as some 450s may not be required due to less commuters and more of working from home?

It’s also been pointed out many times that the 350/2 are not DC fitted. If their owner can find a use for them on AC they’ll remain irrelevant.

 

[43096]

Strange logic to take on extra stock only never to use them, would it make more sense to take these off lease permanently?

They cannot just off lease stock when they want to. The 458/4 contract is signed and the lease is through to 2028.

 

[Goldfish62]

So as I understand it we now have the ridiculous situation where SWR are short on stock but are currently withdrawing their third fleet in the past few years (442, 707 and now 458) with no sign of the long promised 701's entering service?

Really poor, particularly on the Windsor side where services have already been slashed, now more and more existing services will be shortened from 10 to 8 car... And then further short formations when there are inevitably more unit faults.

456 to add to that list of withdrawn classes.

And I read the other day that the latest rolling stock survey by ORR shows that SWR now has the third oldest fleet in the country, only beaten by Cross Country and Chiltern. The survey was undertaken before the XC HSTs left and further 707s were withdrawn from SWR.

 

[Doomotron]

And I read the other day that the latest rolling stock survey by ORR shows that SWR now has the third oldest fleet in the country, only beaten by Cross Country and Chiltern. The survey was undertaken before the XC HSTs left and further 707s were withdrawn from SWR.

That's clearly rubbish. Northern has a fleet mainly formed of sectorisation-era stock, while Chiltern's fleet is almost entirely post-privatisation except for the small Mark 3 and 165 fleets.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That's clearly rubbish. Northern has a fleet mainly formed of sectorisation-era stock, while Chiltern's fleet is almost entirely post-privatisation except for the small Mark 3 and 165 fleets.

The statistics are calculated from the number of individual vehicles, not the number of units - so in Chiltern's case the Mk3 stock will drag their average down considerably.

 

[Vanmanyo]

The statistics are calculated from the number of individual vehicles, not the number of units - so in Chiltern's case the Mk3 stock will drag their average down considerably.

Also privatisation is now nearly 30 years ago! The 168s are nearing their 30th birthdays and the 165s and mk3s do drag that age up massively so it is correct.

 

[TEW]

What's your source for this or is it just speculation, perhaps rumours the DfT are concerned about SWR having too many trains?

Everything published back in 2021 says the refurbished 458s will enter service on SWR as south coast express trains.

Porterbrook selects Alstom to upgrade Class 458 train fleet

Porterbrook has entered into a £25m contract with Alstom to upgrade a fleet of Class 458 electric multiple units.

www.railway-technology.com

Nothing that I can share, but it's mentioned in several internal documents.

 

[spark001uk]

This is going to look absolutely ridiculous after the throwing away of all that money on the 442s. Why not enter the 458/4 now and (by cascading 450s?) carry on binning the aged 455s which have no toilets, no aircon, and poor cabs (I'm not a driver so happy to be corrected on that).

 

[Doomotron]

The statistics are calculated from the number of individual vehicles, not the number of units - so in Chiltern's case the Mk3 stock will drag their average down considerably.

Perhaps, but that doesn't make it particularly valid as in practise the age of the fleet will still be newer than the calculations suggest.

 

[DelW]

Perhaps, but that doesn't make it particularly valid as in practise the age of the fleet will still be newer than the calculations suggest.

SWR's fleet age will be made worse by the large fleet of cl455 vehicles, some of which units incorporate even older cl508 trailers. The 158s and 159s are old now too.

What SWR are already short of is long distance stock, as there are nowhere near enough 444s even with reduced timetables - that was what the 458/4s were supposed to address. It means the continuation of using unsuitable suburban trains on longer distance services for decades to come.

The only hope is that if the 701 shambles continues as it has for the last four years, SWR will have to commission the 458/4s unless they slash the timetable even further - which wouldn't be popular with Tory MPs from Surrey and Hampshire who are already worried that they'll be ousted from their once-safe seats next year.

 

[Snow1964]

That's clearly rubbish. Northern has a fleet mainly formed of sectorisation-era stock, while Chiltern's fleet is almost entirely post-privatisation except for the small Mark 3 and 165 fleets.

Northern has fleet of CAF 195s and 331s (nearly 300 vehicles) which are only about average 5 years old, that is going to lower their age profile.

SWR having got rid of 707s and not introduced 701s, has nothing newer than about 19 years old, a diesel fleet nearer 31 years old, and a suburban fleet 38-40 years old. Therefore going to have average age nearer 30 years

 

[Goldfish62]

That's clearly rubbish. Northern has a fleet mainly formed of sectorisation-era stock, while Chiltern's fleet is almost entirely post-privatisation except for the small Mark 3 and 165 fleets.

Perhaps you could offer your services as an auditor for the next survey.

 

[GWVillager]

I fail to see why it would be a worthwhile use of money to take the 458/4s off-lease. They’re presumably no more expensive to lease/operate than the 458/5s, is the DfT/Treasury really that desperate to cut costs that they’ll waste the completed “Plan B” that wouldn’t even increase costs?

 

[Peter Sarf]

What happens after they’ve been refurbed? Surely if they are painted in SWR colours they can’t be used elsewhere by other companies ?

Oh don't worry most liveries are just a vanity project - most of us are used to ignoring the train livery. I have lost track of how many times I have travelled on a Southern Service formed of Gatwick Express livery stock (that many think their ticket is not be valid on).

I fail to see why it would be a worthwhile use of money to take the 458/4s off-lease. They’re presumably no more expensive to lease/operate than the 458/5s, is the DfT/Treasury really that desperate to cut costs that they’ll waste the completed “Plan B” that wouldn’t even increase costs?

I expect the lease is coming up for renewal so SWR are going to get out at that point regardless of what the ROSCO spends on them or what is needed.

 

[Snow1964]

I fail to see why it would be a worthwhile use of money to take the 458/4s off-lease. They’re presumably no more expensive to lease/operate than the 458/5s, is the DfT/Treasury really that desperate to cut costs that they’ll waste the completed “Plan B” that wouldn’t even increase costs?

It was stated earlier (and is in DfT published SWR contract) that 112 vehicles of the 458s had lease extended to mid 2027 and are being converted to 28 x4car.
The remaining 68 vehicles are already agreed to go off lease as 701s introduced.

Although not specifically stated (commercial contracts details are not normally published) it appears the conversion, lease extension and return of remainder are all part of a deal. Quite likely there are hefty penalties to get out of it.

 

[Wivenswold]

Sorry, a silly comment but the mention that 484 could couple to other units in an emergency made me wonder how bad the service has gone if a "Thunderbird" is sent from the IOW.

Anyway, as you were.

 

[TEW]

I fail to see why it would be a worthwhile use of money to take the 458/4s off-lease. They’re presumably no more expensive to lease/operate than the 458/5s, is the DfT/Treasury really that desperate to cut costs that they’ll waste the completed “Plan B” that wouldn’t even increase costs?

458/5s were always planned to leave the fleet though. SWR are not paying the leaves for the full fleet of 701s yet, once more 701s are accepted that increases costs, that can be offset by ditching the 458s.

 

[cactustwirly]

458/5s were always planned to leave the fleet though. SWR are not paying the leaves for the full fleet of 701s yet, once more 701s are accepted that increases costs, that can be offset by ditching the 458s.

They have to pay the leases on the 458s till the lease end date surely

 

[TEW]

This is going to look absolutely ridiculous after the throwing away of all that money on the 442s. Why not enter the 458/4 now and (by cascading 450s?) carry on binning the aged 455s which have no toilets, no aircon, and poor cabs (I'm not a driver so happy to be corrected on that).

455s are pretty popular with drivers. It's only a minimal number of 455s you could replace by using 458/4s given none have completed fault free running yet. 450s are also not at all suited to the inner suburban work the 455s do. By the time you got any 458/4s in to service you would hope the 701s were also in service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2023 ==

They have to pay the leases on the 458s till the lease end date surely

Probably, unless they can negotiate something. But it will still save money not introducing them to service, and they can go straight off lease when the lease expires.

 

[43096]

They have to pay the leases on the 458s till the lease end date surely

They do. I'm not quite sure why we have to keep going through the basics of contracts with people (not you, evidently!), but there you go.

The Class 444 and 450 fleets are covered by a Section 54 agreement through to 23 April 2025.
The Class 458/4 fleet is leased through to 21 August 2027.

The only way to terminate the 458 lease early is going to be to pay off the lease. Porterbrook are not going to be interested in negotiating - why would they?

In terms of the lease cost, the best bet may be to not renew the lease on some of the 450s when the Section 54 expires. In the meantime, with the continued absence of the 701s and the 458/4 conversion progressing (and effectively taking units out of the fleet) there comes a point where the 458/4s will have to enter service as the 450s will be needed to backfill the 458s as they get stopped for conversion.

 

[amazon1675]

455s are pretty popular with drivers. It's only a minimal number of 455s you could replace by using 458/4s given none have completed fault free running yet. 450s are also not at all suited to the inner suburban work the 455s do. By the time you got any 458/4s in to service you would hope the 701s were also in service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2023 ==


Probably, unless they can negotiate something. But it will still save money not introducing them to service, and they can go straight off lease when the lease expires.

I'd love to see a flow chart of these rolling stock usage possibilties...with all the costings of course.

 

[GWVillager]

It was stated earlier (and is in DfT published SWR contract) that 112 vehicles of the 458s had lease extended to mid 2027 and are being converted to 28 x4car.
The remaining 68 vehicles are already agreed to go off lease as 701s introduced.

Although not specifically stated (commercial contracts details are not normally published) it appears the conversion, lease extension and return of remainder are all part of a deal. Quite likely there are hefty penalties to get out of it.

As others have pointed out, though, SWR will still have to lease the 112 vehicles until 2027. If trains sitting around doing nothing is an option, then surely it would make more sense to introduce the 458s and have some 450s spend a little longer in the depot - a 1 1/2 hour (at least) relatively high profile journey is surely enough to justify at least refurbished old trains.

I simply can't see the 458s not entering service, especially after the Class 442s. It might take a while, but the damage to ROSCO trust for essentially wasting their money can surely not be worth it for the DfT.

 

[driverd]

The only way to terminate the 458 lease early is going to be to pay off the lease. Porterbrook are not going to be interested in negotiating - why would they?

Well, there could be many what-if reasons, to be fair.

For instance, Southern could decide that they need 28x 4 car EMUs to replace the glut in capacity left after the 455 & 313 withdrawl. They may seek a 10 year lease, in which case, Porterbrook may seek agreeable terms to terminate on.

There could be a new build fleet strategy, perhaps a fleet swap strategy. There's been all sorts of goings on in the past.

In simple terms, as things stand - yes, there's no reason for Porterbrook to change anything, but there's plenty of variables which could very quickly change that.

In terms of the lease cost, the best bet may be to not renew the lease on some of the 450s when the Section 54 expires. In the meantime, with the continued absence of the 701s and the 458/4 conversion progressing (and effectively taking units out of the fleet) there comes a point where the 458/4s will have to enter service as the 450s will be needed to backfill the 458s as they get stopped for conversion.

I do entirely agree here - all else withstanding, the situation as described by others upthread just seems downright insane - but I suppose that isn't unheard of in the industry of late.

 

[pompeyfan]

The cost of training crews on 458/4s and refurbishing the cabs sit entirely with SWR (DfT), that’s not a small amount of money as you’re looking at at least half of the drivers at Fratton and Bournemouth, and probably 3/4 of guards at both depots. We all know that currently trying to get money out of the DfT/treasury is like trying to get blood out of a stone. I can’t see the funds being released and the TOC will be made to take the fall.