Collision and derailment near Salisbury (Fisherton Tunnel) 31/10/21

[Sporty60]

What immediately struck me was this paragraph:



Does this imply criticism of the driver?

Poor, ambiguous headline on BBC News.

https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1716771784492540236?t=69nOM8qJhJnFtTNqqVWwQA&s=19

 

[swt_passenger]

Poor, ambiguous headline on BBC News.

https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1716771784492540236?t=69nOM8qJhJnFtTNqqVWwQA&s=19

Exactly as you’d expect from any of the media. They‘re trying to reduce a 113 page report into one sentence, and it’s always going to be impossible.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

In the circumstances, unless a fault was found with the signalling or train equipment I don't see how you could avoid criticising the driver on some level.

In the rest of Europe multiple units are fitted with additional brake blocks which clamp to the track using electromagnets as a last resort for guaranteed effective emergency braking. I've never understood why the UK doesn't do this.

 

[Gaelan]

What immediately struck me was this paragraph:



Does this imply criticism of the driver?

Somewhat - although it doesn't quite explicitly cast blame in typical RAIB fashion, it definitely questions his choices. Sounds like the driver, hoping to minimize sliding (and thus eg wheel flats) intended to brake slightly later than he normally would; but missed the landmark he intended to use as a braking point, eventually starting braking much (750m) later than he intended, which was already 250m past where he would brake under normal conditions.

The report is also quite critical of Network Rail Wessex's vegetation management.

 

[Deepgreen]

On a tiny point, the diagram the BBC used of the site showed the two trains involved, but the one that passed the red signal is shown in blue/green while the one that had the route set for it is shown in red. Of no real consequence but I would have automatically used red to denote the trangressing train.

 

[Stigy]

Not surprised really they mentioned the doors behind the cab being restricted to staff only. Wouldn’t be surprised going forward if these were still out of use to the public but could be released in an emergency? (Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think there’s any way the internal doors can be released without the driver doing so?).

 

[swt_passenger]

Not surprised really they mentioned the doors behind the cab being restricted to staff only. Wouldn’t be surprised going forward if these were still out of use to the public but could be released in an emergency? (Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think there’s any way the internal doors can be released without the driver doing so?).

The leading vestibule doors can already be released in emergency, there’s an additional green ‘break glass’ box underneath the normal yellow push button.

 

[Deepgreen]

Somewhat - although it doesn't quite explicitly cast blame in typical RAIB fashion, it definitely questions his choices. Sounds like the driver, hoping to minimize sliding (and thus eg wheel flats) intended to brake slightly later than he normally would; but missed the landmark he intended to use as a braking point, eventually starting braking much (750m) later than he intended, which was already 250m past where he would brake under normal conditions.

The report is also quite critical of Network Rail Wessex's vegetation management.

However, braking later increases the chances of sliding as the application has to be more severe to stop at the signal.

 

[LowLevel]

Very lucky no one was in the small bog on that 158.

An interesting read. When I first heard about the accident I'd just worked a 158 slipping and sliding around in poor rail conditions.

 

[AdamWW]

What immediately struck me was this paragraph:



Does this imply criticism of the driver?

Taking it literally, it's saying that given the low adhesion levels and inability of the brakes to cope, the brakes would have had to have been applied earlier to avoid overruning the signal.

I'm not sure if one should conclude from that wording that they are implying that the driver should have been aware of the low adhesion in time to act accordingly.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I find it interesting that RAIB have included this image of the change in scene over the last 60 years.

 

[Deepgreen]

Taking it literally, it's saying that given the low adhesion levels and inability of the brakes to cope, the brakes would have had to have been applied earlier to avoid overruning the signal.

I'm not sure if one should conclude from that wording that they are implying that the driver should have been aware of the low adhesion in time to act accordingly.

I think the driver should have been aware of the high likelihood of poor adhesion as it is a very well-known 'black spot' for it. Even if he had never actually driven the route before (I don't know), surely he should have been made aware of it in training. I'm not overtly blaming the driver here, but it has to be a significant factor.

I find it interesting that RAIB have included this image of the change in scene over the last 60 years.

Yes, it's pretty stark.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think the driver should have been aware of the high likelihood of poor adhesion as it is a very well-known 'black spot' for it. Even if he had never actually driven the route before (I don't know), surely he should have been made aware of it…

He’d been based at Salisbury depot throughout his career and was approaching retirement. Report section 22, he’d been a driver since 1982.

 

[Gloster]

I find it interesting that RAIB have included this image of the change in scene over the last 60 years.

When I was there in 1979/1980 it was still very much like the ‘Warship‘ picture.

 

[75A]

What immediately struck me was this paragraph:



Does this imply criticism of the driver?

Suggests he needs to be psychic to know how much the level of grip has diminished.

 

[Muse29]

Somewhat - although it doesn't quite explicitly cast blame in typical RAIB fashion, it definitely questions his choices. Sounds like the driver, hoping to minimize sliding (and thus eg wheel flats) intended to brake slightly later than he normally would; but missed the landmark he intended to use as a braking point, eventually starting braking much (750m) later than he intended, which was already 250m past where he would brake under normal conditions.

The report is also quite critical of Network Rail Wessex's vegetation management.

It worries me that any driver, especially one with 22 years experience, would think to brake later when dealing with potential low rail adhesion. Surely no driver worth their salt would think such a thing!

He must have just thought LRA wasn't an issue as he had said it was "unremarkable" on his trip up to London. Not saying that excludes him blame as the time of year plus the potential for LRA means you adjust your driving accordingly.

 

[millemille]

The driver was already aware of previously reported low adhesion in the vicinity of where he would normally apply brakes for the signal SPAD'd and had made the decision to apply the brakes later, using a lineside point of reference (a fallen tree which had been struck by an earlier train), to avoid the area of low adhesion and sliding.

For whatever reason, whether not seeing the fallen tree due to darkness/prevailing conditions or due to loss of situational awareness, the brakes were not applied until a significant distance after the fallen tree and that, combined with the poor adhesion made the SPAD inevitable.

 

[Muse29]

The driver was already aware of previously reported low adhesion in the vicinity of where he would normally apply brakes for the signal SPAD'd and had made the decision to apply the brakes later, using a lineside point of reference (a fallen tree which had been struck by an earlier train), to avoid the area of low adhesion and sliding.

For whatever reason, whether not seeing the fallen tree due to darkness/prevailing conditions or due to loss of situational awareness, the brakes were not applied until a significant distance after the fallen tree and that, combined with the poor adhesion made the SPAD inevitable.

I can't get on board with that line of reasoning. If you believe there to be LRA at your braking point then brake earlier, not later. I don't drive in the UK though... Are UK drivers under timetable pressure even in LRA season? (a general question) - we get told to disregard our timetable when it's slippery. You get there when you get there... Just arrive safe!

Also says he started driving trains in 1982 but worked on the railway since 1962....a 61 year career to date.... Surely that's not right!

 

[swt_passenger]

Also says he started driving trains in 1982 but worked on the railway since 1962....a 61 year career to date.... Surely that's not right!

I believe from press reports he was 74, so he was well beyond normal retirement age. Back in 1962 he could have started out with BR as a 15 year old.

 

[Deepgreen]

Suggests he needs to be psychic to know how much the level of grip has diminished.

Hardly! October is in the leaf fall season and the site is a heavily-wooded one. All the trains I travel on in the autumn on wooded lines are driven extremely cautiously, with huge increases in stopping distances allowed. An experienced driver should instinctively assume poor rail conditions, especially at a junction. Not a psychic leap to make!

 

[TurboMan]

It worries me that any driver, especially one with 22 years experience, would think to brake later when dealing with potential low rail adhesion. Surely no driver worth their salt would think such a thing!

That was my reaction when I read the report, after first wondering whether there was a mistake and they meant to write 'earlier'.

Suggests he needs to be psychic to know how much the level of grip has diminished.

That's what running brake tests are for.

 

[JamesT]

Only pedantry, but is it too much to expect RAIB to spell Salisbury in the filename of the report? R122023_231024_Sailsbury.pdf

 

[43096]

Suggests he needs to be psychic to know how much the level of grip has diminished.

Or just listen to the colleagues who told him on the day. It’s in the report.

I know the view is - particularly in the driver grade - that drivers are more important than everyone else. But they are not above criticism.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I know what is coming next. HUGE delays as every driver takes it upon themselves to drive very cautiously at the first sign of leaf fall season.

Lets not lose sight of the fact that this area has a lot more vegetation around it compared to the past. It is lack of maintenance, we can all see vegetation growing out of the brickwork in viaducts.

 

[Snow1964]

What immediately struck me was this paragraph:



Does this imply criticism of the driver?

Yes and No, yes perhaps could have done it earlier if known in advance of extra low rather than lower than normal adhesion. But also no as it is a circular argument that the extra low levels were only apparent after braking had started, so some of this is hindsight.

Blatantly obvious the lack of vegetation management is the primary cause, not mitigated by lack of rail treatment. The rest is all consequences after these.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I'm surprised there was no comment on the misinformation that "a Network Rail spokesperson said: "At around 19:00 GMT this evening, the rear carriage of the 17:08 Great Western Railway service from Portsmouth Harbour to Bristol Temple Meads derailed after striking an object on its approach to Salisbury station. "The derailment knocked out all of the signalling in the area". (post 256)

Since this is clearly not what had happened, and caused unneccessary concern about the robustness and safety of the signalling system (which actually performed to specification, the faults were elsewhere), was there ever an investigation as to who gave out this information, and why?

 

[ComUtoR]

LRA means you adjust your driving accordingly.

Not always. My driving style is such that I use the same technique all year round.

 

[bahnause]

That's what running brake tests are for.

Even a running brake test doesn't tell you everything. A bit of fog or a light local drizzle five minutes before you pass through with your train and you still wouldn't have a clue wht is waiting for you. I experienced horrible adhesion (like a cow on ice) in places I'd never expected it, and perfectly fine conditions in places, that are known for being tricky.

 

[Muse29]

Not always. My driving style is such that I use the same technique all year round.

Fair enough although I think if we used the same technique all year round then the trains would constantly be late!

 

[londonboi198o5]

I think the driver should have been aware of the high likelihood of poor adhesion as it is a very well-known 'black spot' for it. Even if he had never actually driven the route before (I don't know), surely he should have been made aware of it in training. I'm not overtly blaming the driver here, but it has to be a significant factor.


Yes, it's pretty stark.

The article clearly states if you read it he had been based at Salisbury depot since starting his career and was a driving instructor. So they would have driving over that section plenty of times.