December 2023 Timetable Change

[infobleep]

And a lot of flight arrivals, Gatwick has no curfew so has a lot flights landing between 11 and 1am

As someone once put in another thread in this forum, in reply to one of my comments, there will always be winner and losers.

As that is the case and they can't cater for everyone, no doubt since not enough people will be travelling at that time I imagine, the losers just have to put up with it.

When I had an early flight once, we stayed in the hotel at the airport. That was pre-COVID, so I don't know if the prices are a lot higher now.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Still ridiculously massive gaps in the Sunday northbound service at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme. This should have been fixed back in 2018. Southbound is acceptable with 1tph to Buxton.

 

[Llandudno]

Still ridiculously massive gaps in the Sunday northbound service at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme. This should have been fixed back in 2018. Southbound is acceptable with 1tph to Buxton.

Would you actually risk using the train from these stations when the 192 bus runs every few minutes?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

And a lot of flight arrivals, Gatwick has no curfew so has a lot flights landing between 11 and 1am

Yes I understand that, but if the only travel opportunity is stations via Guildford to Reading, it won’t make a lot of revenue (unless there’s some significant air travel demand into the Blackwater Valley that I’m not aware of?)

 

[metrail]

Are we expecting any major changes from anyone?

Hull to Liverpool appears to be axed, yet Cleethorpes to Liverpool remains

 

[JW4]

Any news if Avanti plan on reintroducing the pre COVID 3tph Euston to Bham from Dec 23?

https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/-...les/10-dec-2023-1-jun-2024-timetable-book.pdf Here’s the Dec 2023 timetable.
I think there’s only one more hour of the day on weekdays with 3tph.

 

[cle]

Yes I understand that, but if the only travel opportunity is stations via Guildford to Reading, it won’t make a lot of revenue (unless there’s some significant air travel demand into the Blackwater Valley that I’m not aware of?)

There are hourly services through the night to London (and Bedford) - plus very late services the other way to Brighton, and even later just to Three Bridges. These are fairly well-used throughout, also serving Luton airport (which has late and early flights too)

 

[30907]

There are hourly services through the night to London (and Bedford) - plus very late services the other way to Brighton, and even later just to Three Bridges. These are fairly well-used throughout, also serving Luton airport (which has late and early flights too)

I think Wilts Wanderer was meaning that a service to Reading would make very little money. London is another matter (and of course operates over a 4-track route which allows flexibility for engineering possessions.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would you actually risk using the train from these stations when the 192 bus runs every few minutes?

Risk? If it's canned, just carry on walking to the A6.

The 192 is slow and a haven of ASB.

 

[FenMan]

I think Wilts Wanderer was meaning that a service to Reading would make very little money. London is another matter (and of course operates over a 4-track route which allows flexibility for engineering possessions.)

Mark Hopwood, in a recent GWR puff article for Modern Railways, mentioned an ambition to add a service in the middle of the night to mop up the early departures from Gatwick and bring back those flying into Gatwick after 10:30pm or so. GWR, or was it Thames Trains?, have previous on this - a fair few years ago there was a short-lived coach service in the middle of the night with the same calling pattern as the current semi-fasts.

 

[JonathanH]

Thames Trains?, have previous on this - a fair few years ago there was a short-lived coach service in the middle of the night with the same calling pattern as the current semi-fasts.

Thames Trains ran two overnight coaches in each direction around 2001 between Gatwick and Reading. They didn't stop at Redhill or Reigate - 0020 and 0410 from Gatwick, 0130 and 0300 from Reading. As you say, they didn't last long. The first and last trains have been pretty much constant since Turbos were introduced in the early 1990s.

 

[FenMan]

Thames Trains ran two overnight coaches in each direction around 2001 between Gatwick and Reading. They didn't stop at Redhill or Reigate - 0020 and 0410 from Gatwick, 0130 and 0300 from Reading. As you say, they didn't last long. The first and last trains have been pretty much constant since Turbos were introduced in the early 1990s.

In 2001, 31.2M passengers used the airport. Pre-COVID, that had risen to 46.6M. The jury's out, but it's interesting that Hopwood chose to mention it.

 

[mangyiscute]

Imo since you can still travel through London to get to Reading (there's essentially a 24 hour service from London to Reading), and all of the other places on the line have nowhere near the pull of Reading apart perhaps Guildford, there just isn't enough incentive for this service.

 

[moonarrow458]

On the Thames Valley part of the GWML GWR are introducing a new 387 operated 0739 service from Reading to Paddington calling at Maidenhead in order to combat overcrowding.

Meanwhile TFL are adding in Acton Mainline stops to the 0724 and 0754 Reading to Abbey Wood services, which adds more inconsistency to the lizzy line GWML stopping patterns. And on Saturday nights the 2343 Abbey Wood to Paddington service is being extended to Maidenhead to combat late night overcrowding.

And the 0539 Lizzy Line service from Whitechapel to Heathrow T4 is going to be extended to start in service from Stratford at 0534, having come empty from Gidea Park sidings

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Imo since you can still travel through London to get to Reading (there's essentially a 24 hour service from London to Reading), and all of the other places on the line have nowhere near the pull of Reading apart perhaps Guildford, there just isn't enough incentive for this service.

The GWR direct service would be advantageous for those with luggage, though?

 

[Jamesrob637]

Would you actually risk using the train from these stations when the 192 bus runs every few minutes?

It's just so shocking when the Monday to Saturday service is actually really decent.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's just so shocking when the Monday to Saturday service is actually really decent.

Marple is the same - only the Sheffields and nothing to Rose Hill. At least the Sheffields are now hourly on Sundays.

 

[Class 466]

Calls at East Linton are now live

 

[Llandudno]

Risk? If it's canned, just carry on walking to the A6.

The 192 is slow and a haven of ASB.

Not sure I would fancy walking through Levenshulme late at night….!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure I would fancy walking through Levenshulme late at night….!

In that case you'd be taking a taxi anyway unless you happened to live right next to a bus stop or the railway station.

Levvy isn't as rough as it was, it's gentrifying somewhat. The 192 runs through far rougher places. The Heatons are posh (I went there the weekend before last, I have friends who live there - I created a thread on exactly that issue having been surprised to find no train at the time I wanted!)

 

[FenMan]

Yes I understand that, but if the only travel opportunity is stations via Guildford to Reading, it won’t make a lot of revenue (unless there’s some significant air travel demand into the Blackwater Valley that I’m not aware of?)

Hopwood must be looking at passenger projections, I'm not sure he would have mentioned it otherwise. In my opinion NDL demand in the late evenings is heavily suppressed by the unreliability of evening flight arrivals at Gatwick (I certainly wouldn't risk a scheduled arrival time after 8pm, particularly if on an EasyJet flight).

Having a back-stop NDL departure after midnight could be the catalyst that removes the anxiety of being stranded at Gatwick until the 0511 departure. Currently potential NDL passengers arriving on later flights just take the car or an airport cab as the rail alternative is too high a risk. Hopwood appears to be looking at modal shift to generate genuinely new demand that would also improve loadings on the 2230 and 2322 departures.

One other point, in my experience many in the Blackwater Valley (pop. 250,000+) do use NDL services to Gatwick and the (very welcome) changes to the Dec timetable ought to unlock additional demand.

 

[Jamesrob637]

In that case you'd be taking a taxi anyway unless you happened to live right next to a bus stop or the railway station.

Levvy isn't as rough as it was, it's gentrifying somewhat. The 192 runs through far rougher places. The Heatons are posh (I went there the weekend before last, I have friends who live there - I created a thread on exactly that issue having been surprised to find no train at the time I wanted!)

Where is that thread, please?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where is that thread, please?

Here you go:

Heaton Chapel on Sundays

Does anyone know why Heaton Chapel has such a random Sunday service? It seems to be made up of calls on all manner of random services to/from random destinations with some very long gaps (about 3 hours over lunch for instance), yet these are services which mostly run hourly or two hourly...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Jamesrob637]

Here you go:

Heaton Chapel on Sundays

Does anyone know why Heaton Chapel has such a random Sunday service? It seems to be made up of calls on all manner of random services to/from random destinations with some very long gaps (about 3 hours over lunch for instance), yet these are services which mostly run hourly or two hourly...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thank you! Just commented therein.

 

[infobleep]

Hopwood must be looking at passenger projections, I'm not sure he would have mentioned it otherwise. In my opinion NDL demand in the late evenings is heavily suppressed by the unreliability of evening flight arrivals at Gatwick (I certainly wouldn't risk a scheduled arrival time after 8pm, particularly if on an EasyJet flight).

Having a back-stop NDL departure after midnight could be the catalyst that removes the anxiety of being stranded at Gatwick until the 0511 departure. Currently potential NDL passengers arriving on later flights just take the car or an airport cab as the rail alternative is too high a risk. Hopwood appears to be looking at modal shift to generate genuinely new demand that would also improve loadings on the 2230 and 2322 departures.

One other point, in my experience many in the Blackwater Valley (pop. 250,000+) do use NDL services to Gatwick and the (very welcome) changes to the Dec timetable ought to unlock additional demand.

I take a chance of late evening flights but would not get that was touch a go with regards to collecting my baggage.

 

[The exile]

Hopwood must be looking at passenger projections, I'm not sure he would have mentioned it otherwise. In my opinion NDL demand in the late evenings is heavily suppressed by the unreliability of evening flight arrivals at Gatwick (I certainly wouldn't risk a scheduled arrival time after 8pm, particularly if on an EasyJet flight).

Having a back-stop NDL departure after midnight could be the catalyst that removes the anxiety of being stranded at Gatwick until the 0511 departure. Currently potential NDL passengers arriving on later flights just take the car or an airport cab as the rail alternative is too high a risk. Hopwood appears to be looking at modal shift to generate genuinely new demand that would also improve loadings on the 2230 and 2322 departures.

One other point, in my experience many in the Blackwater Valley (pop. 250,000+) do use NDL services to Gatwick and the (very welcome) changes to the Dec timetable ought to unlock additional demand.

Public transport connections to airports need to be both robust / frequent enough to give you a secure arrival time and cope with delayed inbound flights, but also guaranteed long term (which is where rail should have an advantage over the bus). If you really want people to switch to public transport, they need to know now what the timetable will be like in summer 2024. For access to central London, this is a given; elsewhere less so (I’m thinking beyond just the Linidon airports)

 

[cactustwirly]

Hopwood must be looking at passenger projections, I'm not sure he would have mentioned it otherwise. In my opinion NDL demand in the late evenings is heavily suppressed by the unreliability of evening flight arrivals at Gatwick (I certainly wouldn't risk a scheduled arrival time after 8pm, particularly if on an EasyJet flight).

Having a back-stop NDL departure after midnight could be the catalyst that removes the anxiety of being stranded at Gatwick until the 0511 departure. Currently potential NDL passengers arriving on later flights just take the car or an airport cab as the rail alternative is too high a risk. Hopwood appears to be looking at modal shift to generate genuinely new demand that would also improve loadings on the 2230 and 2322 departures.

One other point, in my experience many in the Blackwater Valley (pop. 250,000+) do use NDL services to Gatwick and the (very welcome) changes to the Dec timetable ought to unlock additional demand.

The last 2 times I've flown into Gatwick, I would have had a 3 hour trapse across London or a long wait until 5am, which is not fun if you have work the next day.

 

[Starmill]

Hull to Liverpool appears to be axed, yet Cleethorpes to Liverpool remains

Indeed. Manchester - Leeds express reduced to 2tph, but with no increase in capacity per train from when they were 5tph, or the same capacity as five years ago when there was 4tph of three cars. Not good.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2023 ==

Still ridiculously massive gaps in the Sunday northbound service at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme. This should have been fixed back in 2018. Southbound is acceptable with 1tph to Buxton.

Of course, what you're hinting at here is the hourly down service from Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme should never have been taken away in May 2018 in the first place.

 

[DelW]

Thames Trains ran two overnight coaches in each direction around 2001 between Gatwick and Reading. They didn't stop at Redhill or Reigate - 0020 and 0410 from Gatwick, 0130 and 0300 from Reading. As you say, they didn't last long. The first and last trains have been pretty much constant since Turbos were introduced in the early 1990s.

I've no idea what route they took, but the only fast road route between Reading and Gatwick is M4, M25 & M23* which obviously misses out the Blackwater Valley towns and Guildford.

There are no fast routes between Reading and Guildford - I've tried most of the options. Only the section from Frimley to Guildford via BVR and the Hog's Back is reasonably quick.

East of Guildford is even worse - the A25 and A281 are rural single carriageways going through lots of villages.

(*traffic permitting, but should be clear in the middle of the night)

 

[Jan Mayen]

Back in the days when Virgin Cross Country ran Reading - Gatwick via Kensington Olympia, I was on a late evening train which was cancelled on arrival at Reading due to no conductor. Remains passengers were put in a minibus for Gatwick and went the via the M25 etc. Journey time was less than the train was timetabled to take. Also, Virgin had agreed to those of us not needing Gatwick to be taken home, rather than just left at Gatwick waiting for onward connections.