LNER announce CAF fleet (Class 897)

[ScottGallagher]

At least LNER will know the drawbacks of the 800 fleet ie seats so it ought to not be repeated in this fleet !

 

[Iskra]

At least LNER will know the drawbacks of the 800 fleet ie seats so it ought to not be repeated in this fleet !

I wouldn’t get your hopes up. The crash and fire regulations haven’t changed.

 

[800001]

I wouldn’t get your hopes up. The crash and fire regulations haven’t changed.

No they haven’t, however Lumo has a better comfort seat, and Emr is supposedly better

 

[contrex]

What a load of guff in the press release.

This made me laugh:

the new ten-coach trains will help LNER achieve its vision of becoming the most loved, progressive and trusted train operator in the UK

 

[Bletchleyite]

No they haven’t, however Lumo has a better comfort seat, and Emr is supposedly better

And TfW have used a different base cushion that doesn't expose a metal bar. Like the "contoured ironing board" differs from the regular one, this makes the Sophia a pretty good seat.

There was never really any excuse for the junk in the 80x bar one thing - price.

 

[superalbs]

And TfW have used a different base cushion that doesn't expose a metal bar. Like the "contoured ironing board" differs from the regular one, this makes the Sophia a pretty good seat.

Until those cushions collapse too.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Presumably they will be ETCS compliant for the ECML (a first for CAF in the UK).

Some 197's (e.g. 197003 as a test unit) have ETCS for the Cambrian.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Until those cushions collapse too.

It's a different cushion. However hard you push on it, there's no bar there. Or at least I couldn't find one.

 

[Fuzzytop]

The only surprise is that it's taken them so long.

LNER has had CAF as its preferred bidder since July 2022, at least according to their response to an FOIA request last year:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/requ...10/LNER Board Minutes 13.07.2022 approved.pdf (page 4)

LW stated that one of the business priorities is to deliver ETCS which will get the cables off the linesides and into the cabs. LW noted the discussion with DfT for approval of the new trains from CAF and noted that approval is required by the 8th October to avoid additional costs.

 

[ainsworth74]

I wouldn’t get your hopes up. The crash and fire regulations haven’t changed.

It isn't the regulations that cause uncomfortable seating it's buying the cheapest possible seats that meet the minimum requirement of being something that someone could sit on whilst being safe in the event of a crash or fire. It is perfectly possible to have comfortable seating that is compliant but only if you're willing to spend a smidge more money.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Well I suppose if they have the standard CAF ride quality then that gives the DfT an excuse to abandon catering in First Class, the food and drink will be over the place once it's been rattled out of the dishes.

The 397s look nice, but the ride quality is dire, and the same applies to the Mk5A coaches. And everything CAF seems to make has this horrendous knocking noise which can sound quite alarming to those not expecting it.

 

[Towers]

I’m very pleased to see an order for domestic intercity stock going somewhere other than the 80x factory; this is good news.

 

[800001]

The only surprise is that it's taken them so long.

LNER has had CAF as its preferred bidder since July 2022, at least according to their response to an FOIA request last year:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/914556/response/2183323/attach/10/LNER Board Minutes 13.07.2022 approved.pdf (page 4)

You are correct

 

[Iskra]

And TfW have used a different base cushion that doesn't expose a metal bar. Like the "contoured ironing board" differs from the regular one, this makes the Sophia a pretty good seat.

There was never really any excuse for the junk in the 80x bar one thing - price.

Well, it’s cost them in the long run- I won’t be venturing to Inverness or Aberdeen on LNER for the foreseeable, which I used to love doing on the HST’s. I only travel on the Azuma’s when essential and I don’t even find first class down to London a particularly enjoyable experience anymore. I appreciate I am but one person, but I’ve heard/seen plenty of others saying it so it must be having some impact in terms of ticket revenue.

 

[superalbs]

Well I suppose if they have the standard CAF ride quality then that gives the DfT an excuse to abandon catering in First Class, the food and drink will be over the place once it's been rattled out of the dishes.

The 397s look nice, but the ride quality is dire, and the same applies to the Mk5A coaches. And everything CAF seems to make has this horrendous knocking noise which can sound quite alarming to those not expecting it.

I find it a lot better than the 800s, so a positive change there in fact.

 

[Rail Quest]

Have CAF offered even a bi-mode before, let alone a tri-mode? If globally then I'm pretty sure they've never applied that to a UK design yet. Me thinks they're trying to get the Northern contract from the recent tender with tri-mode tech even if it might get plagued with technical issues.

 

[The_Train]

Seems like a strange move to go for a small sub-fleet of trains from a different manufacturer when the vast majority of the rest of your fleet is a specific type of train. Seems even stranger to go for a manufacturer who have hardly set the world alight with their new trains which in the main are very uncomfortable to travel on

 

[185143]

I find it a lot better than the 800s, so a positive change there in fact.

Seriously?

With lots of experience of both fleets, I find that very hard to believe. Passing Carnforth Junction on a 397 if you're over the bogie feels like you're about to come off the road. Never had anything that bad on an 802 on the same line of route.

 

[Townsend Hook]

Presumably the CAF offer undercut the Hitachi offer (if there was one) by a significant amount.. otherwise I can't for the life of me see the point in introducing a microfleet of inferior-quality trains (certainly from a passenger point of view, and seemingly from a build quality point of view as well). Are these true multi-mode trains or are the batteries and diesels more of a 'keep the hotel power on and limp home' spec?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Some 197's (e.g. 197003 as a test unit) have ETCS for the Cambrian.

Ah yes, forgot about those.
That should avoid the risk of deployment on the ECML, at least.

 

[RailWonderer]

Likely trying to distract from the cancellation of HS2.

Which is not a bad thing at all. Government (especially ours) is incapable of doing large infrastructure projects without bilions going to waste. I'm glad it's being spent on proper things like refurbishments and new rolling stock.

 

[The_Train]

Seriously?

With lots of experience of both fleets, I find that very hard to believe. Passing Carnforth Junction on a 397 if you're over the bogie feels like you're about to come off the road. Never had anything that bad on an 802 on the same line of route.

Same with the 195 and 331 fleet - going over points is the equivalent feel of hitting a pothole at 70mph in your car

 

[800001]

Well, it’s cost them in the long run- I won’t be venturing to Inverness or Aberdeen on LNER for the foreseeable, which I used to love doing on the HST’s. I only travel on the Azuma’s when essential and I don’t even find first class down to London a particularly enjoyable experience anymore. I appreciate I am but one person, but I’ve heard/seen plenty of others saying it so it must be having some impact in terms of ticket revenue.

The azuma will still go to Aberdeen!

 

[The_Train]

Which is not a bad thing at all. Government (especially ours) is incapable of doing large infrastructure projects without bilions going to waste. I'm glad it's being spent on proper things like refurbishments and new rolling stock.

But fancy new stock doesn't fix the capacity issue that HS2 would have helped to at least make better

 

[Towers]

Seems like a strange move to go for a small sub-fleet of trains from a different manufacturer when the vast majority of the rest of your fleet is a specific type of train. Seems even stranger to go for a manufacturer who have hardly set the world alight with their new trains which in the main are very uncomfortable to travel on

Unless of course that ‘rest of your fleet’ was a woefully below par product from another manufacturer who also had very much not set the world on fire. Particularly if the situation had fostered a poor working relationship with said manufacturer.

 

[800001]

Is it not likely that they will be designed for hybrid operation and the diesels won't be poweful enough for reasonable acceleration without assistance from the batteries?

The battery will be for entering/departing stations away from the wires

 

[AdamWW]

The battery will be for entering/departing stations away from the wires

Did I miss that in the press release, or do you have additional information?

 

[gabrielhj07]

I would also say this is a good indication of the bed Hitachi have made for themselves at the moment. More 80x were clearly at one point the likely choice, but reliability and the crack issue have taken their toll (and is likely to for some time to come) and CAF have obviously impressed enough to win the order.

It’s not like CAF have bathed themselves in glory with the 195’s yaw dampers.

It's very likely there is no pointless "140mph" burden in the specification, which applied to the IEP (and Pendolinos).
Presumably they will be ETCS compliant for the ECML (a first for CAF in the UK).

I presume also that not having stupidly long carriages and not needing to go 140 will permit softer suspension to be fitted?

 

[185143]

I know seats are subjective and have been done to death before, but I personally would be happy to see the same seats fitted to these new trains. I do prefer the seats on the 197s, but I happily did Aberdeen-Kings Cross on an Azuma followed by Paddington-Penzance all in standard. Not once did I feel uncomfortable. I would have appreciated some cold beer and hot food on the GWR leg however, but that's going way off topic.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Seriously?

With lots of experience of both fleets, I find that very hard to believe. Passing Carnforth Junction on a 397 if you're over the bogie feels like you're about to come off the road. Never had anything that bad on an 802 on the same line of route.

I find that going on an 800 near Newark is horrendous.

Have CAF offered even a bi-mode before, let alone a tri-mode? If globally then I'm pretty sure they've never applied that to a UK design yet. Me thinks they're trying to get the Northern contract from the recent tender with tri-mode tech even if it might get plagued with technical issues.

Wouldn't surprise me and CAF is a logical option for Northern considering the 195s/331s.

I know seats are subjective and have been done to death before, but I personally would be happy to see the same seats fitted to these new trains. I do prefer the seats on the 197s, but I happily did Aberdeen-Kings Cross on an Azuma followed by Paddington-Penzance all in standard. Not once did I feel uncomfortable. I would have appreciated some cold beer and hot food on the GWR leg however, but that's going way off topic.

I do agree, far better than the seats that GC has.