Speculative - Proposed Bus Service Improvement Plans

[pm2304877]

We could do with a BSIP on Merseyside restoring all day services to Bowring Park and an evening Runcorn 61 (as 16)Also
X5 Liverpool -Runcorn hourlyMSD
City area services 101, C4/C5 needed
82A Sunday evening needed.

WIRRAL needs restoration of buses as follows
186 Eastham Ferry-Clatterbridge-Arrowe Park Hospital- Arrowe Brook-Frankby-Newton-West Kirby Daily all day hourly service. 117 Eve/Sun hourly
Moreton-Arrowe Park-Prenton-Rock Ferry-Bebington-Clatterbridge-Spital- Bromborough Rake Allport Lane-Plymyard AVE Eastham Rake .
492/495 replaced by two straight routes
419 Birkenhead Woodside via Claughton, Bidston following the threatened 418 to.Arrowe Park Hospital. To run MSD 30 mins, Eve/Sun hourly.till circa 2300

415 Birkenhead WS- Claughton-Oxton-Noctorum-Upton By Pass- Arrowe Park Hospital.
To run MSD 30 mins, ESUN hourly until C 2300

And finally Night Tunnel Buses need to be restored
450 Liverpool-Birkenhead Daily 2300 to 0500 Sun-Fri,

451 Liv-Birk-Duke St and as 432 to New Brighton
SSu early hours

Weekend night buses are needed on main .city routes .

These changes are needed to plug gaps left by the defunct Avon Buses which Merseytravel failed to replace
Most of the above will require subsidy and the Bus Franchising regime to come in as Arriva only seem interested in sabotaging bus services with zero consideration for passengers so no hope of a BSIP here!

 

[londonteacher]

Merseytravel are usually quite good at plugging gaps when an operator pulls out/goes bankrupt. The fact that they haven’t suggests that they do not believe there is a case for them.

 

[markymark2000]

Merseytravel are usually quite good at plugging gaps when an operator pulls out/goes bankrupt. The fact that they haven’t suggests that they do not believe there is a case for them.

No, the reality is that Merseytravel would rather the funds go into where it is politically better for them which in this case is Moreton Circulars, the Sunday only almost empty 129 (kept for historical reasons), needlessly, significantly increasing the 16/17 Moreton services, giving an hourly service to Eastham Ferry etc etc. Merseytravel only do what suits politically, not what makes sense or based off actual usage. Heck, it took them a number of years to reduce the 216/217 which had trips running minutes ahead of commercial routes. The all high and mighty dictators at Merseytravel waste so much money on stupid things that there is no money left for them to replace the Avon routes.

And finally Night Tunnel Buses need to be restored

Any night bus in Merseyside is needed. I believe the N1 made money but Stagecoach chose not to reinstate it because it's operationally more convenient to close the depot at night. Same for the night 86s. Arriva I presume just couldn't be bothered with the night 86 as Speke is open all night as last buses in are about 1.20am and first bus out is about 3.30. As of right now, I don't think Stagecoach could expand though as they have agency drivers in as they took over Peoplesbus, upset all of their drivers, they left and now Stagecoach is stuck with the work without the drivers. Got too greedy with contracts (including happily running down core commercial routes) and now struggling for staff.

A Night Tunnel Bus should always make money, it's just operationally difficult as not many drivers would want to do it and it would mess up duties for the following days. If it was tendered, it would be a difficult one as no authority can justify funding services which turn a profit but no one will run it commercially.

X5 Liverpool -Runcorn hourlyMSD

X1 Liverpool to Runcorn yes, X5 separate and should do Liverpool - Widnes - Warrington. Provide better links and do the one thing that no one else had the sense to do, send it into Speke Morrisons so that Speke benefits from faster buses (Arriva wouldn't do it as they didn't want to undermine their core services or have overcrowding, MP Travel wouldn't do it as they were too pally with Arriva and did their best not to steal any passengers. Under BSIP this won't happen because it would negatively effect the current core network. Under franchising it could happen. Depends on if dictator dontbotherham decides that he wants his powers to extend to Warrington like he wants to force his disastrous franchising network upon Ellesmere Port.

City area services 101, C4/C5 needed

Why? These existed, weren't busy enough hence got cut by Merseytravel. Yes something is needed but not in the form that you suggest.

 

[pm2304877]

No, the reality is that Merseytravel would rather the funds go into where it is politically better for them which in this case is Moreton Circulars, the Sunday only almost empty 129 (kept for historical reasons), needlessly, significantly increasing the 16/17 Moreton services, giving an hourly service to Eastham Ferry etc etc. Merseytravel only do what suits politically, not what makes sense or based off actual usage. Heck, it took them a number of years to reduce the 216/217 which had trips running minutes ahead of commercial routes. The all high and mighty dictators at Merseytravel waste so much money on stupid things that there is no money left for them to replace the Avon routes.


Any night bus in Merseyside is needed. I believe the N1 made money but Stagecoach chose not to reinstate it because it's operationally more convenient to close the depot at night. Same for the night 86s. Arriva I presume just couldn't be bothered with the night 86 as Speke is open all night as last buses in are about 1.20am and first bus out is about 3.30. As of right now, I don't think Stagecoach could expand though as they have agency drivers in as they took over Peoplesbus, upset all of their drivers, they left and now Stagecoach is stuck with the work without the drivers. Got too greedy with contracts (including happily running down core commercial routes) and now struggling for staff.

A Night Tunnel Bus should always make money, it's just operationally difficult as not many drivers would want to do it and it would mess up duties for the following days. If it was tendered, it would be a difficult one as no authority can justify funding services which turn a profit but no one will run it commercially.


X1 Liverpool to Runcorn yes, X5 separate and should do Liverpool - Widnes - Warrington. Provide better links and do the one thing that no one else had the sense to do, send it into Speke Morrisons so that Speke benefits from faster buses (Arriva wouldn't do it as they didn't want to undermine their core services or have overcrowding, MP Travel wouldn't do it as they were too pally with Arriva and did their best not to steal any passengers. Under BSIP this won't happen because it would negatively effect the current core network. Under franchising it could happen. Depends on if dictator dontbotherham decides that he wants his powers to extend to Warrington like he wants to force his disastrous franchising network upon Ellesmere Port.


Why? These existed, weren't busy enough hence got cut by Merseytravel. Yes something is needed but not in the form that you suggest.

I'm sorry but Merseytravel do not plug gaps in services and haven't for years. Bowring Park A5080 being a case in point. The 101/C4/C5 served deprived areas with a high elderly population, the 101 served steep hills in the Everton area. The last two chairs of Merseytravel were enthusiastic about "active travel", in other words walk or get a bike. One of those "chairs* is leader of Liverpool City Council, so more Marie Antoinette nonsense will be forthcoming no doubt.

I hope franchising improves matters but my faith in local government in the Liverpool City Region and Arriva is between zero and zilch!
By the way the X5 I suggested was because there is an X1 already from Liverpool to Chester and it's just a revival of the previous number.

 

[markymark2000]

One of those "chairs* is leader of Liverpool City Council,

That chair that you mention also said it is a good use of public funds to pay for a
3 buses on Christmas Day that generally doesn't carry any passengers (bar the drivers partner or friend). 7 hours on each route of a driver being paid upward of £35ph hour, plus bus costs and depot costs. He says that's good value for money. Running buses for literally no genuine passengers. Wonderful use of taxpayers money! Absolute planks in that transport committee, not a single backbone in there. Merseytravel say jump, the transport committee say how high. That's what happens when youre in a single part area like Liverpool though. No accountability, everyone covers for eachother and taxpayers money down down the drain.

The Bus Hub built specifically to kick buses out of the main city centre? Passed by the council and Merseytravel. Noone outside of these organisations wanted it, it's causing a shed load of hassle, no one shall speak bad about it.
The failing 777s which means Kirkby has never had a worse train service in its existence, no one speaks bad of it as it's under Merseyrails control.
The fact Merseytravel charge buses more to go through the tunnel than the cars! They do this knowing that this means higher fares on buses, no one slates it, it's just ammo to use against big bad private firms.
A ticketing scheme (My ticket) which is open to so much fraud that it led to one firm going into administration and partly responsible for the local municipal operator going into administration too. No one shall speak bad of the scheme, it's the best thing ever.
Remember the Hydrogen bus launch that was actually the EV version liveried up, all brought up to show off so that silly sod Steve could get his photos. No one called them out on the fact it wasn't even the bus they were launching.
Talking of the hydrogen buses, isnt it funny that they only saw regular service during Eurovision when Steve could use it for some press. Where are they now, all back in the depots. 1 bus does a round trip each morning on the 10A, that's it. Because of poor planning, untested technology all forced upon 2 operators without any consultation (may be minor but everyone else uses Hanover blinds in Liverpool, stupid people in Merseytravel order these with Mobitech blinds.

Time and time again, it's proven that the prats in charge of Merseyside and the transport network are clearly incompetent. All kept on jobs by not what they know, but who they know.
The lot of them should hang their heads in shame. Merseyside's transport has become a shambles and it's issues start and end with Labour and franchising isn't going to make that any better. Anyone who believes that franchising will improve things is delusional and similarly anyone who thinks accountability would come into it, you're living in fairy land. Absolute shambles top to bottom.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Christmas Day services are intended for those visiting hospitals. They could do something else e.g. free taxis, but presumably feel the bus services are the cheaper or easier option. They are not intended to be super busy, as people generally don't do much travel on Christmas Day.

If by the local municipal operator you mean Halton, it had many problems.

 

[Busaholic]

The Christmas Day services are intended for those visiting hospitals. They could do something else e.g. free taxis, but presumably feel the bus services are the cheaper or easier option. They are not intended to be super busy, as people generally don't do much travel on Christmas Day.

If by the local municipal operator you mean Halton, it had many problems.

I don't think that in the scheme of things the provision of a few such services on one day a year will cause the bankruptcy of the council and, if it gives succour to some and finds staff willing to work, they should continue in principle. If they need tweaking to be more effective, all well and good.

 

[markymark2000]

The Christmas Day services are intended for those visiting hospitals. They could do something else e.g. free taxis, but presumably feel the bus services are the cheaper or easier option. They are not intended to be super busy, as people generally don't do much travel on Christmas Day.

If they are used, I have no issue and despite lower usage on some routes, I haven't criticised them. Here's an FOI of it

(Not liking to the table as I don't know if it will show properly and as I'm in phone, I can't copy the table)

Christmas Day Bus Usage - a Freedom of Information request to Merseytravel

Please can I ask for the following details for all Christmas Day bus routes. 1. How many people used each trip and where passengers boarded 1a. In 2019 1b. In 2020 2. The cost of running each route on Christmas Day (cost per trip preferred but I presume that would be discounted due to...

www.whatdotheyknow.com

In 2019 (so pre COVID), 6 routes carries less than 2 passengers per trip on average. 2 routes only carried 2 people all day. I know the drivers who did these trips and these 2 passengers were drivers mates. Route 44 in Formby I believe is drivers mate as well.

If by the local municipal operator you mean Halton, it had many problems.

Agreed. My ticket was one though.

Legal documents reveal full story of dramatic collapse of Halton Transport

Legal documents have revealed for the first time the systemic dysfunction that led to its demise in January

www.cheshire-live.co.uk

The causes of its financial problems were many.

Delays to the opening of the Silver Jubilee Bridge were costing the company an estimated £100,000 a year in extra staff and fuel costs, diesel prices and wages were on the up and MerseyTravel’s MyTicket scheme had lost Halton Transport another £250,000 as teenage passengers were reclassified from adults to children.

I don't think that in the scheme of things the provision of a few such services on one day a year will cause the bankruptcy of the council and, if it gives succour to some and finds staff willing to work, they should continue in principle. If they need tweaking to be more effective, all well and good.

In the grand scheme of things, lower usage is expected but the almost none existent usage is an issue. The routes are almost all amended versions of course routes too so it's confusing for passengers (12A linking Liverpool - Stockbridge Park - Huyton. The 12A doesn't exist any other day of the year and the link to Huyton is ran by the 258 normally. The 201 normally runs 3 times per day each way, Christmas day or runs 5 times per day.

 

[RHolmes]

The routes are almost all amended versions of course routes too so it's confusing for passengers (12A linking Liverpool - Stockbridge Park - Huyton. The 12A doesn't exist any other day of the year and the link to Huyton is ran by the 258 normally. The 201 normally runs 3 times per day each way, Christmas day or runs 5 times per day.

They’re not. They’re historical services that did exist but were cut by operators for various reasons over the years. All of the merseytravel Christmas Day routes were actual services from the late 90’s and early 00’s when they were originally introduced.

The 12A was formerly the Xmas day 212x, previously the original liverbus/Arriva 212 ran from Huyton depot, nothing to do with the 258 or 21 which operated via Kingsway and not Woolfall and Bakers Green

 

[markymark2000]

They’re not. They’re historical services that did exist but were cut by operators for various reasons over the years. All of the merseytravel Christmas Day routes were actual services from the late 90’s and early 00’s when they were originally introduced.

The 12A was formerly the Xmas day 212x, previously the original liverbus/Arriva 212 ran from Huyton depot, nothing to do with the 258 or 21 which operated via Kingsway and not Woolfall and Bakers Green

They may have had use back in the day but now, the routes are mostly variations or completely different services to what runs the rest of the year. That is what I was saying. I am not comparing the 1990s bus network to the current Christmas day services.

 

[RHolmes]

They may have had use back in the day but now, the routes are mostly variations or completely different services to what runs the rest of the year. That is what I was saying. I am not comparing the 1990s bus network to the current Christmas day services.

It doesn’t matter because the people who use and rely on the services are aware of their routes, they’re the same services that have ran pretty much the exact same way for 20-30 years. The intended purpose of them is to get staff and visitors to hospitals on Christmas Day and Merseytravel do contact the local hospitals with the service information.

It doesn’t take a genius to work out the route of the 12A largely follows the 12 or that the 10A is the exact same route as the 10A

I’d also disagree with you that the bulk are variants of existing services because they’re not. Routes which deviate and have origins from contracted routes have been renumbered into the H1-H5 series.

 

[markymark2000]

It doesn’t matter because the people who use and rely on the services are aware of their routes, they’re the same services that have ran pretty much the exact same way for 20-30 years. The intended purpose of them is to get staff and visitors to hospitals on Christmas Day and Merseytravel do contact the local hospitals with the service information.

Some people are aware. The low usage generally suggests not many are fully aware of the services though or they do not wish to use the routes.

I also think you're missing what I am saying, my arguement is not 'scrap all of the routes', I am saying 'scrap very disused routes' amend other routes so that they can be better used. There is a big difference between the two and you seem to be struggling to see the difference between them.

It doesn’t take a genius to work out the route of the 12A largely follows the 12 or that the 10A is the exact same route as the 10A

10A is one which is the same so that's not one of the issues that I am refering to, clearly.

I’d also disagree with you that the bulk are variants of existing services because they’re not. Routes which deviate and have origins from contracted routes have been renumbered into the H1-H5 series.

Exactly, old tenders which no longer run. Cut the main tender because of low usage yet keep the Christmas day buses! The origins of the route are completely irrelevant. The facts are they are disused (mostly) and provide a different service to the core network and so there will be people who don't understand the routes because it's a one day network.

12A, 21A and 62A have a number of differences between the core and the Christmas day. 201 may be the same route but there is a significant uplift in the timetable

 

[Bletchleyite]

There would be some sense in doing the Xmas Day routes as some form of DRT, possibly by agreement with a local taxi firm, then if nobody books they needn't run.

 

[markymark2000]

There would be some sense in doing the Xmas Day routes as some form of DRT, possibly by agreement with a local taxi firm, then if nobody books they needn't run.

They could buy some dedicated minibuses and then have a dedicated app for it? Well all the other useless DRT schemes do, might as well keep the trend going haha.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They could buy some dedicated minibuses and then have a dedicated app for it? Well all the other useless DRT schemes do, might as well keep the trend going haha.

Germany does Anruf-Sammel-Taxi (telephone shared taxi) services which are in bus timetables at quiet times via taxi firms which is probably the way to do it as if it doesn't run you don't pay the full cost of it.

(You can even use the same abbreviation in the UK as it works as "arranged shared transport" )