Thameslink driver refuses to move train 16/11

[Krokodil]

Thank you. I have had a quick look at the first three pages and I think I see what you mean, but in my view, whilst I don't agree fully with the victim blaming, I can understand why people were posting like that so I don't find it appalling. I have seen it time and time again where someone has come a cropper because they acted carelessly or irresponsibly, and any attempt to point out the victim may have contributed in some way to their demise is met with the victim blaming card, as though just because someone is vulnerable means they cannot be held to account for anything. The way I look at it is to think about driving a motor vehicle. It doesn't matter how careless someone acts in my vicinity, it is my duty to drive in a way that minimises the possibility of harming them, even though in an ideal world people should have at least some duty of care to themselves.

Many people could have saved GV's life that night. A long chain of events going back to the party where there was underage drinking and possibly other substances (I forget the details), stretching through to the guard of that train. Action from any one person (her parents, the hosting parents, her friends, the guard...) could have stopped the Swiss cheese aligning.

 

[ComUtoR]

There are no safe train capacities. If you can shut the doors it's safe

On our units we have a 'Crush loading valve' This will prevent the brakes from being released and ergo, prevent the unit from moving. Only once in 20yrs has this occurred on one of my trains.

 

[choochoochoo]

There are no safe train capacities. If you can shut the doors it's safe

So if a train is extremely crush loaded and a driver then needs to make their way back through the packed carriages to resolve/investigate a fault, how do they get to that particular carriage if they’re not at a station ?

You can’t get out onto the cess and walk back as you’d not be able to access the carriage externally because the doors would have to be released/egressed and you’d be at ground level so would not be able to climb up to access them.

Does this not make exceptional crush loading an operational restriction?

 

[Krokodil]

So if a train is extremely crush loaded and a driver then needs to make their way back through the packed carriages to resolve/investigate a fault, how do they get to that particular carriage if they’re not at a station ?

The point being made was that there is no plated number like on buses. Therefore it's left upto the crew to declare a train unsafe to move. There's not even really any guidance (at least not up here) on what factors to consider so you get one guard prepared to take a train that looks like the morning peak in New Delhi, while another looks on aghast.

 

[bahnause]

The point being made was that there is no plated number like on buses. Therefore it's left upto the crew to declare a train unsafe to move. There's not even really any guidance (at least not up here) on what factors to consider so you get one guard prepared to take a train that looks like the morning peak in New Delhi, while another looks on aghast.

Rule of thumb: The evacuation routes must be free of luggage and other objects (prams, bicycles). Of course, as an engine driver, I can't really determine this for unaccompanied trains. However, if someone comes up with the idea of placing the suitcase or pram directly behind my door to the driver's cab, it must be relocated.

Reading the article, I am glad that the interlock is sufficient for the departure of our DOO trains, there is usually no additional check of the PTI. I think for DOO the rules should allow for this method to be used.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thank you. I have had a quick look at the first three pages and I think I see what you mean, but in my view, whilst I don't agree fully with the victim blaming, I can understand why people were posting like that so I don't find it appalling. I have seen it time and time again where someone has come a cropper because they acted carelessly or irresponsibly, and any attempt to point out the victim may have contributed in some way to their demise is met with the victim blaming card, as though just because someone is vulnerable means they cannot be held to account for anything. The way I look at it is to think about driving a motor vehicle. It doesn't matter how careless someone acts in my vicinity, it is my duty to drive in a way that minimises the possibility of harming them, even though in an ideal world people should have at least some duty of care to themselves.

All true. But for a road parallel, it might not be found against me if I was to accidentally hit a drunk person who stumbled in front of my car while in motion (does happen, I actually had a drunk guy stumble into the SIDE of my car while stationary at traffic lights once, he fell to the floor then got up and wandered off). But equally had this guy fallen in front of my stationary car, I would have been rightly prosecuted if I'd just driven over him on purpose. What the guard did in this case was tantamount to the latter. He deliberately and knowingly, not accidentally, did something which could reasonably be expected to cause death or serious injury, and he knew it could. He was just negligently hoping it wouldn't, and his cards didn't come up.

Rule of thumb: The evacuation routes must be free of luggage and other objects (prams, bicycles). Of course, as an engine driver, I can't really determine this for unaccompanied trains. However, if someone comes up with the idea of placing the suitcase or pram directly behind my door to the driver's cab, it must be relocated.

Reading the article, I am glad that the interlock is sufficient for the departure of our DOO trains, there is usually no additional check of the PTI. I think for DOO the rules should allow for this method to be used.

Hasn't Germany just changed to a more UK like system after some high profile accidents?

 

[Pakenhamtrain]

Another one I don't understand is refusal to take the service (and thus cancellation) due to faulty cab air-con. It feels somewhat like an insult to those on the ground who have to weather sun, wind, storm (or maybe a combination of!) for hours. Maybe this is something you'll only understand in a driver's shoes. I wouldn't know, and, unfortunately, when an effort is made to "know", be prepared to be told something to the effect of "go away, let me get on with my job" - so...

Cab airconditioning being non functional anywhere does knock a train out of service quickly.
Our HCMT fleet is only able to run for 1 or 2 Availability periods* depending on the temperature before its an automatic Do Not Depart.

*An Availability Period is:
1: Weekday AM(First train until 1400)
2: Weekday PM(1400 to Last train)
3: Weekend(First train to Last train)

 

[bahnause]

Hasn't Germany just changed to a more UK like system after some high profile accidents?

According to the rulebook, you can still rely on the interlock. Some TOC rules might have different (local) rules.

 

[43066]

Many people could have saved GV's life that night. A long chain of events going back to the party where there was underage drinking and possibly other substances (I forget the details), stretching through to the guard of that train. Action from any one person (her parents, the hosting parents, her friends, the guard...) could have stopped the Swiss cheese aligning.

That’s all true, and she was almost certainly too intoxicated to be on the railway network at all.

But none of that changes the fact that the guard’s action in dispatching a train with that girl leaning against it is what directly led to her death, and that is what was found by a jury to be grossly negligent.

Some drivers seem to think they are omnipotent or something! In one instance I was threatened that they'd refuse to take the train, just for doing my job. Guess who's side they'll see in a Please Explain. Imagine if I had the gall to refuse to dispatch!!

Can you clarify “just for doing my job”? Surely there must have been more to it than that.

It has nothing to do with being “omnipotent”, everything to do with the fact that even a minor mistake can stay on a driver’s record for their entire careers, and giving a reason after the fact will invariably be met with “so why did you take the train”?

Therefore any attempt by other staff members to rush drivers will be rebuked, and platform staff publicly haranguing a driver for doing their job, as alleged in the OP, could indeed easily escalate to the point of the driver no longer feeling fit to continue.

The same applies to any safety critical role; presumably you wouldn’t continue to dispatch trains if you felt unfit to continue to work safely?

Another one I don't understand is refusal to take the service (and thus cancellation) due to faulty cab air-con. It feels somewhat like an insult to those on the ground who have to weather sun, wind, storm (or maybe a combination of!) for hours. Maybe this is something you'll only understand in a driver's shoes. I wouldn't know,

It surely isn’t that difficult for anyone who has ever got into a parked car on a hot day to imagine why train cabs designed for air conditioning, often with no opening windows, become far too hot to enter even briefly on sunny days, let alone sitting and concentrating in for long periods, and far, far hotter than the outside temperature.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It surely isn’t that difficult for anyone who has ever got into a parked car on a hot day to imagine why train cabs designed for air conditioning, often with no opening windows, become far too hot to enter even briefly on sunny days, let alone sitting and concentrating in for long periods, and far, far hotter than the outside temperature.

Completely agree on this one. On very hot days I tend to get dopey due to the heat, and dopey train drivers are not what any passenger who wishes to arrive safely wants.

Even more so without opening windows (moving air cools me down reasonably as well).

 

[SussexSeagull]

Very much Team Driver but the problem with the Thameslink core is I think some passengers subconsciously think it is an underground line (indeed at Farringdon the lines are literally next to underground lines) and think it ok to get closer to trains.

 

[RunRepeat]

Totally that. The more they flap and pressure me the cooler I become.

I find totally the opposite from our platform dispatch staff who would be 100% behind me. Stratford is probably the most difficult station to depart but they all do their best to control the crowds.

Reading your previous comments, I was going to say exactly this. I use your network several times a week and P10 at Stratford gives me the fear when I'm waiting there be it a through or stopping train. Awful platform.

 

[Krokodil]

Rule of thumb: The evacuation routes must be free of luggage and other objects (prams, bicycles). Of course, as an engine driver, I can't really determine this for unaccompanied trains. However, if someone comes up with the idea of placing the suitcase or pram directly behind my door to the driver's cab, it must be relocated.

I do work to this, as well as ensuring that the train doesn't get so wedged that it would be impossible to get into the train to reset a passcom (particularly important on 150s where the door between the crew vestibule and the saloon has to swing outwards, and there's no override). But my point was that I've never been given an official policy on this so there's no consistency between crews - I get loads of "but it was fine before"

 

[whoosh]

Very much Team Driver but the problem with the Thameslink core is I think some passengers subconsciously think it is an underground line (indeed at Farringdon the lines are literally next to underground lines) and think it ok to get closer to trains.

I can see where you're coming from to a degree. But they can get closer to the trains there, as the yellow line is a lot closer to the platform edge than elsewhere. It is comparable to a tube platform.

So the point is, that if someone is over the yellow line at Farringdon and won't move back, then they are VERY close to the train.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I do think the biggest problem is that the meaning of the yellow line has changed and the railway simply isn't communicating this other than staff shouting at passengers on platforms.
All the signage still says stand back due to passing trains (paraphrased) but it now means stand back during dispatch too, the signs need to be updated if the public are to be expected to know.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do think the biggest problem is that the meaning of the yellow line has changed and the railway simply isn't communicating this other than staff shouting at passengers on platforms.
All the signage still says stand back due to passing trains (paraphrased) but it now means stand back during dispatch too, the signs need to be updated if the public are to be expected to know.

Hatching, which people clearly understand as "don't stand here regardless of why" is a better way. Some stations have it but it isn't universal, though I don't really understand why.

 

[dk1]

Reading your previous comments, I was going to say exactly this. I use your network several times a week and P10 at Stratford gives me the fear when I'm waiting there be it a through or stopping train. Awful platform.

It is yes and never really designed for use in the way it is now hence the long signal sections/overlap for 70/80mph running.

 

[DNCharingX]

I have taken a train out of service for no air con before. It was like a hairdryer blowing on me, but the switch was in cooling. This was after fifteen minutes of setting the cab up, so had given it a chance to sort itself out.
Turned out it had been booked as faulty earlier in the day by another driver, but wasn't fixed, and they just thought they'd try their arm at running it in service later on anyway!

That's what we've been up against sometimes!

By the way, being in a cab that's too hot - have you ever sat in a greenhouse on a hot sunny day? And then kept your alertness levels up?

Probably not.
That's what it's like.

In terms of cab air conditioning, if it’s not working then it is likely - on hot days - to affect the driver’s concentration. Do passengers really want to be on a train driven by someone whose concentration is adversely affected in this way? As an aside, on some trains it can also cause issues at speed if the driver has to have their window open, due to noise drowning out sounds and tones heard in the cab.

Yes I’m sure there are drivers who use defective cab air con as a way of getting out of work, however in the vast majority of cases it will be because the driver is genuinely concerned about the effect it will have on their performance. Remember that drivers are expected to perform to 100.0% levels of accuracy.

That’s all true, and she was almost certainly too intoxicated to be on the railway network at all.

But none of that changes the fact that the guard’s action in dispatching a train with that girl leaning against it is what directly led to her death, and that is what was found by a jury to be grossly negligent.


Can you clarify “just for doing my job”? Surely there must have been more to it than that.

It has nothing to do with being “omnipotent”, everything to do with the fact that even a minor mistake can stay on a driver’s record for their entire careers, and giving a reason after the fact will invariably be met with “so why did you take the train”?

Therefore any attempt by other staff members to rush drivers will be rebuked, and platform staff publicly haranguing a driver for doing their job, as alleged in the OP, could indeed easily escalate to the point of the driver no longer feeling fit to continue.

The same applies to any safety critical role; presumably you wouldn’t continue to dispatch trains if you felt unfit to continue to work safely?



It surely isn’t that difficult for anyone who has ever got into a parked car on a hot day to imagine why train cabs designed for air conditioning, often with no opening windows, become far too hot to enter even briefly on sunny days, let alone sitting and concentrating in for long periods, and far, far hotter than the outside temperature.

Thanks all for your input, it is much appreciated and eye-opening. Just to clarify, my post is only marginally related to the thread. The driver is obviously right in this context, and the Platform Staff performed poorly. Were they safety-critical, money is on that they wouldn't even start the dispatch process. I'm not sure why these staff care about the timetable or delays more than safety.

In hindsight, the rare scenarios I describe may have just been a driver with the hump. Not fair to lump all other drivers in with that, as easy as it is to do. Most encounters are positive. To clarify one situation, by "doing my job", we are required to make sure that the driver "is ready" before asking the signaller for a signal. The fellow was taking a bit to set up, so naturally, I started to get concerned. In this situation, I was the unfortunate victim who dared to walk up and ask "all good driver?" before being subject to some very strong words followed by a threat to not take the service. That day I learned you *can* set-up 20 seconds before departure!

As for cab conditioning, it was something I was interested in an answer to. It's not related at all to this post. I didn't consider that the AC may be stuck in heating/cooling, which I can understand. I definitely have a better outlook on why air-con faults can take a train out of service. I must admit that prior my attitude was that drivers would not find the temperature to their liking, and refuse to take the service.

Once again, thanks for the constructive opinions and perspectives from all. I do recognise the animosity in my post, and apologise for that.

 

[Horizon22]

Given the extraordinary number of train movements through the station (two intensive metro cores and LU), I do wonder how easy it would be to manage dangerous overcrowding levels. Presumably TfL and GTR would have to coordinate periods of non-stopping.

Not something that has been a concern in recent years, but will likely become an issue going forward, especially with the EL exceeding all forecasts.

You would "stop and hold" if need be and temporarily stop people entering the platform/stations. The station has shared management though, but the majority is London Underground which complicates matters.

 

[Facing Back]

I do think the biggest problem is that the meaning of the yellow line has changed and the railway simply isn't communicating this other than staff shouting at passengers on platforms.
All the signage still says stand back due to passing trains (paraphrased) but it now means stand back during dispatch too, the signs need to be updated if the public are to be expected to know.

This makes sense to me. Until I read this thread I hadn't realised that the yellow line was for dispatch too. I got it for past trains running through the stations - although I admit with some shame to the machismo of youth and enjoying standing right on the line when a train came through at linespeed.

It hadn't really occurred to me that it was for dispatch too.

I can also see why many people treat the Thameslink core as underground - notwithstanding that parts of it are - all the trains stop and there is a train every few seconds at the peak - what's the difference?

Perhaps the communications could be better?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I guess joe public does not understand/know or even care about that dispatch staff need a clear "line of sight" between the yellow line and the side of the train. Most also will not take kindly to being shouted at by platform staff to "STAND CLEAR !" etc.

How can the railway educate the travelling public better?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess joe public does not understand/know or even care about that dispatch staff need a clear "line of sight" between the yellow line and the side of the train. Most also will not take kindly to being shouted at by platform staff to "STAND CLEAR !" etc.

How can the railway educate the travelling public better?

Markings that look like "don't stand here". That is, hatching. Perhaps even red rather than yellow.

If you want to change the meaning you need to change the markings. Some staff seem to enjoy shouting at people, but it isn't acceptable customer service, it's really necessary to ensure the message is right from the start. Shouting is for when someone is in immediate and serious danger, e.g. if they don't act they may be about to die. This isn't true when they're simply delaying a train by being confused by inconsistent and inadequate messaging.

 

[Facing Back]

It surely isn’t that difficult for anyone who has ever got into a parked car on a hot day to imagine why train cabs designed for air conditioning, often with no opening windows, become far too hot to enter even briefly on sunny days, let alone sitting and concentrating in for long periods, and far, far hotter than the outside temperature.

You are quite right of course. It is also possible to imagine why passengers crush loaded onto a 2 car train with tiny windows and smelling like it was dragged from a swamp in the late 18th century are grumpy when they are reading about trains not running through failed AC. I was deplaned once as the pilot's AC had failed and on the bus back to the terminal there were people grumbling about why they didn't just open a window. We passengers don't like to be inconvenienced

Markings that look like "don't stand here". That is, hatching. Perhaps even red rather than yellow.

If you want to change the meaning you need to change the markings. Some staff seem to enjoy shouting at people, but it isn't acceptable customer service, it's really necessary to ensure the message is right from the start. Shouting is for when someone is in immediate and serious danger, e.g. if they don't act they may be about to die. This isn't true when they're simply delaying a train by being confused by inconsistent and inadequate messaging.

If you bellow at somebody close to you, its easy to shock them into a fight or flight reflex. Neither helps especially. My concern about hatching - especially in red - is whether it will stop people entering the area at all, even to board the train.

 

[jon0844]

I can also see why many people treat the Thameslink core as underground - notwithstanding that parts of it are - all the trains stop and there is a train every few seconds at the peak - what's the difference?

A key difference is that at most underground stations people board the next train that comes, whereas in the Thameslink core there will be people standing for their train and not moving for the one or two trains that don't go to their destination.

At a station like St Pancras is isn't really an issue as the platforms are big, but parts of Farringdon are a lot more problematic.

There are of course a fair few tube stations with different train services that will have a similar issue and presumably the same risks.

 

[43066]

Thanks all for your input, it is much appreciated and eye-opening. Just to clarify, my post is only marginally related to the thread. The driver is obviously right in this context, and the Platform Staff performed poorly. Were they safety-critical, money is on that they wouldn't even start the dispatch process. I'm not sure why these staff care about the timetable or delays more than safety.

In hindsight, the rare scenarios I describe may have just been a driver with the hump. Not fair to lump all other drivers in with that, as easy as it is to do. Most encounters are positive. To clarify one situation, by "doing my job", we are required to make sure that the driver "is ready" before asking the signaller for a signal. The fellow was taking a bit to set up, so naturally, I started to get concerned. In this situation, I was the unfortunate victim who dared to walk up and ask "all good driver?" before being subject to some very strong words followed by a threat to not take the service. That day I learned you *can* set-up 20 seconds before departure!

As for cab conditioning, it was something I was interested in an answer to. It's not related at all to this post. I didn't consider that the AC may be stuck in heating/cooling, which I can understand. I definitely have a better outlook on why air-con faults can take a train out of service. I must admit that prior my attitude was that drivers would not find the temperature to their liking, and refuse to take the service.

Once again, thanks for the constructive opinions and perspectives from all. I do recognise the animosity in my post, and apologise for that.

Fair enough, thanks for the reply. For the record I would apply my comments both ways; there’s equally absolutely no excuse for rudeness between drivers and platform staff (directness is a different matter), and “strong language” is totally unacceptable. We all have our share of issues outside of work, but if anyone “has the hump” to the extent they can’t interact professionally with their colleagues, they shouldn’t be anywhere near a driving cab or a dispatcher’s bat.

Knowing when/how to check a driver is present and ready, while not actively hassling them during cab set up, is something that comes with experience. Generally where I am it’s a friendly chat or, if out of ear shot, making eye contact with the dispatcher and pointing to the train while walking up the platform. They will then send the relevant indication to the signaller, absent a problem being reported.

As for aircon faults, failing a train is always a last resort, but occasionally by far the safest thing to do. In the case of cab AC failures, I’ve had three in four years and in two out of three cases it meant a longer day at work, rather than an early bath!

It is also possible to imagine why passengers crush loaded onto a 2 car train with tiny windows and smelling like it was dragged from a swamp in the late 18th century are grumpy when they are reading about trains not running through failed AC. I was deplaned once as the pilot's AC had failed and on the bus back to the terminal there were people grumbling about why they didn't just open a window. We passengers don't like to be inconvenienced

Absolutely, and they have every right to be irritated, but in both cases the “grumble” should be directed at the TOC/airline for providing defective equipment, rather than staff members (who in many cases will also be personally inconvenienced by the cancellation!). In any case in my experience the public will generally simply be told the cancellation is due to a “technical defect” or similar; there’s simply no need to be more specific than this.

 

[Deepgreen]

Driver was absolutely right. After the Merseyrail manslaughter case - the train must wait.

If every PA, verbal request, train PA etc has not moved the passengers back - no sweat or stress - the train does not move.

The 15 minute delay might educate those passengers stood beyond the line, and those irate people stood behind them might err... assist them in moving back. Horizontally.

It will have educated absolutely no-one. Manslaughter was not on the cards as all doors were closed, according to previous posts. Even if a clear corridor was visible, thus allowing a so-called 'safe' departure, there is still nothing to stop someone running up and trying to force the doors open, so having a clear sight (of already-closed doors) doesn't guarantee safety. The rulebook may have been applied properly but this incident could well be picked up by other drivers and the behaviour be used more and more often, this degrading the service further. Had the doors NOT already been closed, of course, it would be a completely different matter and the driver would have no choice but to wait. As has been pointed out, LU platforms are frequently and widely far more crowded in normal operation, and with far more varied platform geometry (curves) than typically found on the TL core.

So, given that it is impossibe to make everyone stand back as required, the only safer solution is to install platform edge doors (PEDs), as on the JLE and EL. As it was, the driver unwittingly probably increased the overall risk to safety on the railway by causing even more crowding to develop. It's a question of risk - that of the safety degradation from increasing crowding and the risk of a drag occurring vs. the cost of PEDs.

 

[Facing Back]

Absolutely, and they have every right to be irritated, but in both cases the “grumble” should be directed at the TOC/airline for providing defective equipment, rather than staff members (who in many cases will also be personally inconvenienced by the cancellation!). In any case in my experience the public will generally simply be told the cancellation is due to a “technical defect” or similar; there’s simply no need to be more specific than this.

I think that it is generally an non-personality grumble and aimed at the company/world/deity of your choice rather than any specific individual. This thread was started with the stated actions of a particular driver which is not all my point - so I am off topic and will stop.

 

[Deepgreen]

I do think the biggest problem is that the meaning of the yellow line has changed and the railway simply isn't communicating this other than staff shouting at passengers on platforms.
All the signage still says stand back due to passing trains (paraphrased) but it now means stand back during dispatch too, the signs need to be updated if the public are to be expected to know.

There is a female platform staff member at Gatwick who shouts over the P.A. for people to stand behind the yellow "lion" - good job the station hardly sees any foreign passengers...

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you bellow at somebody close to you, its easy to shock them into a fight or flight reflex. Neither helps especially. My concern about hatching - especially in red - is whether it will stop people entering the area at all, even to board the train.

I doubt it, as the most common way people see these is box junctions, where the meaning is essentially the same - "do not enter until your exit is clear". It's also already used by the railway elsewhere to discourage loitering e.g. at narrow platform pinch points and at the bottom of escalators.

That's the desired meaning. A yellow line doesn't carry that meaning unless you have signage everywhere (and the original signage indicating it for the purpose of making it safe for a passing train remains in lots of places, adding further confusion).

In the end it might be necessary to shout at the odd idiot to stop them being hurt, but if lots of people are doing it (and I can certainly agree they are), then the system is faulty.

 

[E27007]

Is there a gate limit at Faringdon to control overcrowding? If too many passengers are on the platforms, the gate barriers being closed to down to prevent entry to the statioon until sufficient passengers have departed