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Thameslink driver refuses to move train 16/11

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ChristopherJ

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Witnessed the most bizarre incident at Farringdon yesterday evening, which involved GTR platform staff arguing with a driver.

At approximately 17:00, a Down Thameslink train formed of a 12-car Class 700 arrived, being a narrow platform and peak hour it was obviously very busy but nothing unusual for that time of day.

The driver refused to move the train on the grounds that too many people are over the yellow line and it's unsafe to self dispatch, he wouldn't depart until after all passengers have moved back.

Around 10 minutes (yes - 10 minutes!) of sitting idle in the platform, the station staff approached the cab and knocked on the door and began arguing with the driver.

The conversation went along these lines:

"What do you expect us to do? There's two of us and 24 sets of doors - we can't be everywhere at once!"

"The longer you stay here and refuse to move, the more overcrowded it gets. You're just delaying the service."

"Have you seen the Underground platforms? They're worse than us - yet they're self dispatching every minute of the day!"

Despite all these valid points by the platform staff, the driver still refused to move the train, causing an eventual 15 minute delay and backlog in the Thameslink core.

I was so impressed by the logic and rationale of the platform staff, I tapped him on the shoulder and congratulated him on using his common sense, unlike the driver.

Three Bridges ROC and GTR Control must have had a field day with that driver for shutting down the Thameslink Core for quarter of an hour in peak hour. I'd love to read his 'Please Explain' letter...

I'd just like to take a second opportunity to say Well Done to Farringdon platform staff.
 
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ComUtoR

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Why would you congratulate the Platform staff ? They had zero impact on the outcome, contributed to the delay, and acted unprofessionally in the public view.

As to the 'Please explain' I bet bugger all was done. The Driver was well within their right and acted in accordance with their primary responsibility.

For clarity, could you post the Driver's side of the conversation please.
 

ChristopherJ

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Drivers side of the conversation. Standing at the cab window, looking at the DOO cameras and shaking his head in a 'nope' fashion, whilst grinning towards the two platform staff.

Reply from the platform staff was an open armed gesture of "what do you expect us to do?" whilst staring back through the tinted side cab window.
 

randyrippley

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So how was it resolved?
And if the platform was dangerously overcrowded why wasn't entry closed?
 

ComUtoR

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Standing at the cab window, looking at the DOO cameras and shaking his head in a 'nope' fashion,

looking at the internal DOO monitors ? It would be difficult to stand next to the cab window and look at the DOO monitors.

Reply from the platform staff was an open armed gesture of "what do you expect us to do?" whilst staring back through the tinted side cab window.

Or it was an open armed gesture of 'we give up too'

Did you actually hear the conversation or just witness it ?
 

ChristopherJ

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Yes, the driver was staring at the internal DOO monitors, the platform monitors haven't been used since 319 days.

I was standing opposite the cab for Car 1 (First Class) and heard the whole conversation, the platform staff just hopelessly arguing with the driver (see post #1) that this a lost cause just standing idle.
 

ComUtoR

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So the platform staff didn't do anything about managing the platform ? Just have a row with the Driver about the PTI process which they have no responsibility for ? They didn't help or ask passengers to move back beyond the line or make any platform announcements using their handheld dodad thingy?
 

ChristopherJ

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Yes, the platform staff made several attempts to walk the unit and make PA announcements but to no avail.

I was almost prepared to suggest to the driver to switch to manual mode and drive out at 1-2mph for the sake of getting moving, rather than take off like a bat out of hell with ATO...
 

jon0844

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The monitors go off once over a relatively low speed, and the driver doesn't look at them once leaving a station - so if it wasn't safe with a rapid acceleration it wasn't safe at any speed.

A driver is told to stop immediately if the passenger alarm is activated when leaving, but it isn't exactly wise to assume someone on a train is going to warn of someone falling as the train moves. By wise, I mean the driver not being told that it was unwise, but a driver explaining himself in court.

It really doesn't help that the platforms are so narrow in parts of the station and one wonders why this hasn't happened before.
 

ComUtoR

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I was almost prepared to suggest to the driver to switch to manual mode and drive out at 1-2mph for the sake of getting moving, rather than take off like a bat out of hell with ATO...

How would you have proposed the Driver closed their doors ? Would you have suggested the Driver close their doors whilst the 'dispatch corridor' was unclear or blocked ?
 

ChristopherJ

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The doors were already closed and orange BSL lights off, the driver was just waiting to apply power / start ATO. No attempt to reopen was made, either.
 

jon0844

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The doors were already closed and orange BSL lights off, the driver was just waiting to apply power / start ATO. No attempt to reopen was made, either.
Fine, but the train can't move until everyone is clear. I'm surprised the driver didn't release the doors to avoid the chance of someone onboard using the alarm or egress, if it really was that long.
 

185

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Driver was absolutely right. After the Merseyrail manslaughter case - the train must wait.

If every PA, verbal request, train PA etc has not moved the passengers back - no sweat or stress - the train does not move.

The 15 minute delay might educate those passengers stood beyond the line, and those irate people stood behind them might err... assist them in moving back. Horizontally.
 

BJames

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Looks like it was this one - OP said 1700 approx but this is the closest to that time that sat in the platform for 10 minutes: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y54852/2023-11-16/detailed

Unfortunate about the backlog it caused - but as a member of the public I'd far rather the driver was happy it was safe to move off.

How was this resolved though? Did people move back enough? Did staff restrict access to the platforms in some way?
 

ComUtoR

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the driver was just waiting to apply power / start ATO.

Quick technical question (I don't sign ATO) Does the Driver have to press the ATO button and apply power (be in a power position; not just in off' or does the train pull away after interlock ?
 

ChristopherJ

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skyhigh

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If it's not safe, the train doesn't move. Simple as that.

Driver was fully in the right here.
 

Tomnick

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The driver was absolutely 100% correct.

If it had gone wrong, it'd have been the driver who'd be in the Dock. The company would wash their hands of it, as the driver hadn't followed company instructions.

The real failing here is reliance on DOO self-dispatch at such a busy station. How long have they got away with it because of drivers just hoping for the best?
 

michael74

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I (a guard) delayed a train (by many minutes) recently until I got a clear PTI put it into the Delay Reporting App , not a single word said and nor would I expect one. The Merseyrail James St incident is highlighted to us in training and we are reminded the guard went to jail.
 

43066

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Three Bridges ROC and GTR Control must have had a field day with that driver for shutting down the Thameslink Core for quarter of an hour in peak hour. I'd love to read his 'Please Explain' letter...

If the driver isn’t satisfied that it’s safe then the train doesn’t move, however long it takes. Therefore the driver did exactly the right thing in this instance, and there would be no come back whatsoever. I also echo the comments above, the platform staff would have been better off making announcements and resolving the problem, rather than arguing with the driver. Otherwise what is the point of them being there?!
 

skyhigh

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Three Bridges ROC and GTR Control must have had a field day with that driver for shutting down the Thameslink Core for quarter of an hour in peak hour. I'd love to read his 'Please Explain' letter...
For what it's worth the delay appears to have been attributed to it being unsafe to dispatch.

Not quite sure why you appear to have so much glee at the thought of the driver getting into trouble.

I'd just like to take a second opportunity to say Well Done to Farringdon platform staff.
Whereas based on what you've said the driver acted professionally and the platform staff were the ones causing the issue.
 

Lurcheroo

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If it's not safe, the train doesn't move. Simple as that.

Driver was fully in the right here.
Crazy that someone who clearly doesn’t work in a role that deals with PTI risks thinks they know what the right thing to do is.

I don’t do DOO but as a conductor there would be no way I was dispatching my train if people are stood too close. I’m not having any accident or incident on my conscience.

I'd love to read his 'Please Explain' letter...
Quite simple really, he will state that the platform was not safe for the train to depart so it did not.
The driver will not receive any hassle for this.
The TOC would absolutely not thank him for departing when unsafe and having an accident or incident.
 

skyhigh

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Quite simple really, he will state that the platform was not safe for the train to depart so it did not.
The driver will not receive any hassle for this.
The TOC would absolutely not thank him for departing when unsafe and having an accident or incident.
Absolutely this. If I were the driver and control or the signaller decided to try and hassle me over what I considered to be an unsafe situation (as the OP appears to hope) I'd be tempted to say I'm not fit to move the train any further.
 

dk1

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Absolutely this. If I were the driver and control or the signaller decided to try and hassle me over what I considered to be an unsafe situation (as the OP appears to hope) I'd be tempted to say I'm not fit to move the train any further.

Totally that. Observers seem to struggle to grasp reality for some reason.
 

dakta

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Not a railway worker but if the driver doesn't feel he can drive safely then that's going to be that.

As already stated I'd laugh at the thought of any comeback on a driver acting in the name of safety. Crap happens, at least someone responded with their head.

Roll the die the other way and someone got (even mildly) injured if the driver caved. That will be a bit more a bit of paperwork so yeah, 50 points to the driver for the right priorities and sticking to them.
 

brick60000

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The driver refused to move the train on the grounds that too many people are over the yellow line and it's unsafe to self dispatch, he wouldn't depart until after all passengers have moved back.
Quite right too.

I was so impressed by the logic and rationale of the platform staff
Their logic of it getting worse if the train doesn’t move isn’t wrong. But the inferred pressure to the driver to therefore ‘just go’ is.

I'd love to read his 'Please Explain' letter...
Something like: “Dear Manager. I didn’t fancy going to prison today.”

Driver was absolutely right. After the Merseyrail manslaughter case - the train must wait.
100% this.

I (a guard) delayed a train (by many minutes) recently until I got a clear PTI put it into the Delay Reporting App , not a single word said and nor would I expect one. The Merseyrail James St incident is highlighted to us in training and we are reminded the guard went to jail.
Exactly. Everyone on the railway is now more aware than ever that a positive decision of “oh well, it’ll be fine” that leads to injury or worse can very well lead to jail time. And I don’t blame any member of staff for exercising the rule book to the letter to ensure that everything and everyone is safe.
 

dan4291

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There needs to be some sort of education campaign about staying out of the dispatch corridor, i.e. the yellow line. Stand behind it unless getting on or off a train, simple. 100% with the driver in this instance. Can't believe the platform staff were arguing with the driver instead of doing their job and getting people back, doing PA announcements, etc. Ridiculous.
 
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