SBB CFF FFS considering direct trains to London.

[YorkRailFan]

“Basel-London in around 5 hours”: SBB is considering a direct train to England​

No other city receives more flights from Zurich Airport than London. For example, 20 flights are planned today. Because the proportion of business travelers on the connection is high, demand is relatively evenly distributed throughout the year and willingness to pay is high. SBB now also wants to benefit from these ideal conditions for travel providers.

As the Travelnews portal reports, they are examining the introduction of a direct train from Switzerland to London as a long-term goal. This is what Philipp Mäder, head of international passenger transport at SBB, said last week at a specialist conference of the Swiss Travel Association in Parma. “Basel-London in around five hours, that’s possible,” he is quoted as saying. However, implementing the project is not that easy because the infrastructure on the route is expensive due, among other things, to the journey through the Eurotunnel. The Federal Council also welcomes a train connection to London, as it announced in May in response to a proposal from SP National Councilor Matthias Aebischer. (ehs/chm/rbu)

https://www.watson.ch/schweiz/grossbritannien/181462899-sbb-pruefen-direkten-zug-nach-london (Article translated into English using an automatic translator on the website, the article was originally in German)

This really seems like a huge hype with every operator piling onto this trend. I'm waiting for DB to announce plans again.

 

[duesselmartin]

Basel seems to be discussed at least once a year without anything concrete happening. There is a potential market but also significant costs and risks.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Basel seems to be discussed at least once a year without anything concrete happening. There is a potential market but also significant costs and risks.

Capacity at St Pancras is a major issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Capacity at St Pancras is a major issue

Only because Eurostar are hogging it. 4 platforms for 2tph is probably about the most generous provision on the network.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Only because Eurostar are hogging it. 4 platforms for 2tph is probably about the most generous provision on the network.

Where will they send the empty trains though? Surely sending them to Temple Mills and back will be too long a journey between trips

 

[YorkRailFan]

Only because Eurostar are hogging it. 4 platforms for 2tph is probably about the most generous provision on the network.

Isn't the international terminal overcrowded?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Only because Eurostar are hogging it. 4 platforms for 2tph is probably about the most generous provision on the network.

There are 5 international platforms. However as has been stated it is not the platform capacity that is the issue but the capacity of the terminal to process the passengers.

 

[nwales58]

To put this in context, this was a presentation at a Swiss travel trade conference about train vs plane. SBB evaluating London is an example at the end, not the main thrust by a long way.

From this report:

So war die SRV-Fachtagung in Parma | aboutTravel

abouttravel.ch

Crucial bits:

SBB currently offers more than 90 international rail connections daily ... Paris Milan Berlin Vienna

... rail could be competitive for longer destinations.

[night trains] He gave an overview of cooperation with ÖBB and future night trains operating in Switzerland from 2025.

Travellers should move from car and plane to rail. Therefore the core network must be developed, more destinations linked directly, connections improved ...

finishing with the exciting project of evaluating a direct link with London.

So SBB are looking at better rail links over longer distances. It could result in through trains, night trains or better connections in his view. That is honest and realistic, unlike Evolyn etc.

He is an economist rather than a marketing type. I interpret this as much about a gamut of through day/night trains and connections with, importantly, the travel trade support to make sure they can be marketed, sold and ticketed easily. The latter really is important to mass uptake of longer distance rail.

The 5h through train looks like journalist guesswork rather than what was actually presented.

 

[30907]

And the specific case of London appears to have been prompted by a request from a Swiss MP back in March (on a quick Google).

 

[nwales58]

And the specific case of London appears to have been prompted by a request from a Swiss MP back in March (on a quick Google).

BTDTGTTS
Unrealistic request that won't go away. Promise a study. Allocate 5K for some back of envelope work. Report explains what you tried to explain in person unsuccessfully. Delay a month or 3 to appear that you are taking it seriously. Publish the study with the elected member in a PR hype event then hope it dies. Politician gets the publicity he seeks. You go back to the serious work.

 

[Austriantrain]

Capacity at St Pancras is a major issue.

The most important issue is that you need UK border staff (very difficult and very expensive) and security (slightly easier) in Basel and probably Strasbourg (to make it wothwhile) too. Unless you do, it's a game of Lille shuffle and better connections there (especially from Switzerland, where people are very used to changing trains) for example by extending Lille - Strasbourg services to Basel would be the much better option.

St Pancras is solvable if there is a will. The rest will not be solvable, unless you find such a huge traffic generator (such as Amsterdam) that you can cover the costs. I doubt Basel would work, and very few destinations would (seasonal south of France would probably generate enough traffic, but spread out over several stations, and you would have to adapt *and* staff each of them, so it won't work either).

 

[dm1]

It would be possible currently, as Basel SBB station has a separate French section, that could be sealed off for border control purposes fairly easily. However plans have been published to remove that section completely as part of an upcoming capacity expansion scheme , which would make things much more complex.

A more practical and quicker solution would be to provide better connections to Lille (e.g. with a Zürich - Brussels train that bypasses Paris) and through ticketing onto London trains with well-timed, same-station connections.

Currently the fastest route is via Paris using TGV Lyria, but that involves a station change in Paris (between Gare de Lyon and Gare du Nord) and the fares on the TGV lyria are extortionate, making a London round trip cost up to 5x more than flying, whole taking 4x as long.

 

[StephenHunter]

Basel was served by the Night Ferry for two winters in the late 1960s, BTW.

 

[YorkRailFan]

The most important issue is that you need UK border staff (very difficult and very expensive) and security (slightly easier) in Basel and probably Strasbourg (to make it wothwhile) too. Unless you do, it's a game of Lille shuffle and better connections there (especially from Switzerland, where people are very used to changing trains) for example by extending Lille - Strasbourg services to Basel would be the much better option.

St Pancras is solvable if there is a will. The rest will not be solvable, unless you find such a huge traffic generator (such as Amsterdam) that you can cover the costs. I doubt Basel would work, and very few destinations would.

All good points, every year we hear of this plan, and every year nothing happens.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Nov 2023 ==

It would be possible currently, as Basel SBB station has a separate French section, that could be sealed off for border control purposes fairly easily. However plans have been published to remove that section completely as part of an upcoming capacity expansion scheme , which would make things much more complex.

A more practical and quicker solution would be to provide better connections to Lille (e.g. with a Zürich - Brussels train that bypasses Paris) and through ticketing onto London trains with well-timed, same-station connections.

Currently the fastest route is via Paris using TGV Lyria, but that involves a station change in Paris (between Gare de Lyon and Gare du Nord) and the fares on the TGV lyria are extortionate, making a London round trip cost up to 5x more than flying, whole taking 4x as long.

I agree, I think that operators are now just trying to join into this trend. I wouldn't be surprised if any of these don't take off.

 

[nwales58]

Basel was served by the Night Ferry for two winters in the late 1960s, BTW.

Through from London. Also, in the mid 1970s I could check in a bike or suitcase at Victoria, change onto a couchette at Calais or Ostende, get off at one of dozens of stations through Europe in the morning, pick up the bike and ride away. All on one ticket bought from the travel centre at Birmingham, Bristol or wherever.

This announcement was about the swiss, who are rich relative to their neighbours and travel a lot, seeing an opportunity to get back to the kind of joined-up system we have lost and making it easily bookable through travel agents, physical or online.

 

[Austriantrain]

It would be possible currently, as Basel SBB station has a separate French section, that could be sealed off for border control purposes fairly easily.

The costs of adapting the stations are actually the lesser issue. Much more relevant is staffing them, especially with UK border staff, which would have to be outbased with all the costs associated with it (and there are not enough of them as it is).

 

[SocietyForFer]

Switzerland was one of the few countries in Mainland Europe who I felt could make the passport control work, because they have a customs control already within the stations for trains from France and Italy. Obviously it will be more fiddly but the flowsystem is already in place and passport checks are also already done on a sporadic basis.

 

[DanielB]

Switzerland was one of the few countries in Mainland Europe who I felt could make the passport control work, because they have a customs control already within the stations

The customs area is quite tiny however, so they'd need to fit some kind of extension to check an entire London bound train. Though of all possible stations Basel SBB is indeed one of the most practical stations to do such checks: running such a service through France makes sense and AFAIK its fairly easy to seal off one of the French platforms while a train to London is boarding.

 

[SocietyForFer]

The customs area is quite tiny however, so they'd need to fit some kind of extension to check an entire London bound train. Though of all possible stations Basel SBB is indeed one of the most practical stations to do such checks: running such a service through France makes sense and AFAIK its fairly easy to seal off one of the French platforms while a train to London is boarding.

A possibility might be to send a "half train" to from Basel where it joins with another train in France for the path through the Channel Tunnel.

You can even have a second half train for Schengen with the Basel train, attach it after Basel and detach it before Paris and attach another Eurostar at Lille.

 

[Austriantrain]

Switzerland was one of the few countries in Mainland Europe who I felt could make the passport control work, because they have a customs control already within the stations for trains from France and Italy. Obviously it will be more fiddly but the flowsystem is already in place and passport checks are also already done on a sporadic basis.

The problem is not the Swiss controls. Unless the system changes - and it won’t, not for a long time if ever - UK controls would need to take place before boarding in Basel. And that is an entirely different thing. The Swiss officials live in or next to Basel and just commute to the station like any other job. The UK ones would need to be outstationed there or rotate regularly - not easy and above all not cheap.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Will the quickest route be via Dijon and the Paris Interconnexion or via Strasbourg? I guess capacity on the LGV Sud Est is an issue, although not on the LGV Rhin-Rhône. As to London terminals, Ryanair gets away with calling Charleroi 'Brussels' (nearly 30 miles distant) so if the price is right Ebbsfleet can be 'London'.

 

[SocietyForFer]

The problem is not the Swiss controls. Unless the system changes - and it won’t, not for a long time if ever - UK controls would need to take place before boarding in Basel. And that is an entirely different thing. The Swiss officials live in or next to Basel and just commute to the station like any other job. The UK ones would need to be outstationed there or rotate regularly - not easy and above all not cheap.

I wonder if some form of automation could solve this? Once ETA and the EU equivalent come into play then automated e gates could handle everything, and one could argue that you need an European passport with valid ETA to travel on the Eurostar. If the system gives you a rejection then it's your fault (i.e. the risk of the service) but you can get a refund if you can prove that you had a European passport and valid ETA.

 

[nwales58]

Sorry to put a damper on this discussion of juxtaposed controls at Basel, but ...

Where is the hard evidence of SBB considering a Basel-London through train?

A newspaper article speculates about it, but what it refers to is a travel trade event where no through service was mentioned, let alone from where in Switzerland, the presentation sounds to have been in generalities. So I see journalist guesswork until someone finds better information.

 

[gordonthemoron]

When are OEBB putting their bid in?

 

[Austriantrain]

Sorry to put a damper on this discussion of juxtaposed controls at Basel, but ...

Where is the hard evidence of SBB considering a Basel-London through train?

A newspaper article speculates about it, but what it refers to is a travel trade event where no through service was mentioned, let alone from where in Switzerland, the presentation sounds to have been in generalities. So I see journalist guesswork until someone finds better information.

The newspaper article cites the SBB Head of international operations, saying that the possibility of running trains from Basel to London is considered as a possible long-term goal.

So it is official. It is also clear that there are no concrete plans, it’s just a very distant possibility.

 

[SocietyForFer]

When are OEBB putting their bid in?

A nightjet train from London to Vienna and beyond?

 

[RT4038]

I wonder if some form of automation could solve this? Once ETA and the EU equivalent come into play then automated e gates could handle everything, and one could argue that you need an European passport with valid ETA to travel on the Eurostar. If the system gives you a rejection then it's your fault (i.e. the risk of the service) but you can get a refund if you can prove that you had a European passport and valid ETA.

Who exactly is going to make sure that the e gates were operated correctly, bearing in mind there would be no further check on arrival in the UK? Random security guards supplied by the operator? Are HMG really likely to agree to having no Border Force present in such a circumstance? Err.... No.

 

[nwales58]

The newspaper article cites the SBB Head of international operations, saying that the possibility of running trains from Basel to London is considered as a possible long-term goal

OK, I was wrong. I have now read the travelnews.ch article with the precise quote. He also mentions expensive infrastructure costs.

I do see the distribution aspect as significant. He mentions more international journeys being purchasable through the SBB app in the next year or so. He goes on to have a dig at the Spanish restricting 3rd party access to their systems, which I think is with their competition authority at present.

 

[SocietyForFer]

Who exactly is going to make sure that the e gates were operated correctly, bearing in mind there would be no further check on arrival in the UK? Random security guards supplied by the operator? Are HMG really likely to agree to having no Border Force present in such a circumstance? Err.... No.

If you trust that the e gates are secure, then a single person can act as an observer if needed. I believe Ireland does something similar by sending police to ferry ports in France and Spain, and the UK already pays France to do border checks at ferry ports. A combination of the Eurostar check-in verification (airline style) and e gates should be able to work.

In terms of finding the space, you can have the e gates permanently installed but keep them open when other trains are departing internationally. Swiss custom guards can be paid to look after everything.

 

[Austriantrain]

If you trust that the e gates are secure, then a single person can act as an observer if needed. I believe Ireland does something similar by sending police to ferry ports in France and Spain, and the UK already pays France to do border checks at ferry ports. A combination of the Eurostar check-in verification (airline style) and e gates should be able to work.

In terms of finding the space, you can have the e gates permanently installed but keep them open when other trains are departing internationally. Swiss custom guards can be paid to look after everything.

Even a single agent outposted to a continental city means basing an entire crew there. The single agent will not work 12 hour shifts without breaks (you might argue that two departures a day could be organized so that they can be done within an 8-hour-Shift with breaks, but delays can and will happen), will have days off or go on sick-leave. You will likely need at least three or four people on a rota.

And even with e-Gates, a single agent will not suffice. Those gates malfunction, there will be issues to be clarified and misunderstandings to settle, you will have passengers that for various reasons will be unable to use the e-gates etc.

The UK, by excluding checks on arrival in the UK, have implicitly taken the decision that there will never be a network of direct passenger train services to London; it will always be extremely restricted to very few destinations.

It is what it is, but enough said.