Why does West Coast Main Line only keep its minor stations among intercity lines from London?

[Rescars]

Goes back a lot further. These lines were after all designed principally as long-distance arteries (mostly for freight) so local traffic was a minir consideration. If you look at a map of the GWML west of Didcot you’ll notice that it passes east- west through an area where most of the bigger roads are running north south, and ignores the local centres of Abingdon, Wantage, Marlborough and Calne completely. There would have been few established local flows along the line of route to tap into and (other than Swindon) little reason for any to become established until you reach the Chippenham - Bath - Bristol section. The ECML similarly avoided traditional centres like Stamford and the line of the A1, whereas the wcml and the A5 (with its established traffic flows) keep pretty close company. It’s probably only since about the 1960s and the rise of Motirways and (ironically) InterCity rail that those centuries old traffic flows have list their significance.

The actual routes taken by the early trunk lines were dictated in some considerable degree by topography. It was more important to minimise gradients than access significant local centres along the route. Swindon is railway creation - originally the convenient point to change engines from Gooch's single wheelers running at high speed over Brunel's billiard table, to something with coupled wheels better equipped to cope with the gradients further west. IIRC the reason the WCML bypasses Northampton is that the early engineers considered it a place which was easy to get into, but almost impossible to get out. Even so, to keep the gradients workable the main line goes through Kilsby tunnel, which was a massive undertaking when the London and Birmingham was constructed.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

...Among these lines, only West Coast Main Line retains the minor stations that it remains possible to travel along the line for the length using only regional trains...

In the context of this thread, can you give some examples of what you consider to be "minor" stations along the WCML?

Would @miklcct be so kind as to clarify / respond to the query point raised upthread in post #2? Many thanks!

 

[miklcct]

Would @miklcct be so kind as to clarify / respond to the query point raised upthread in post #2? Many thanks!

Stations on the main line where only regional trains call, such as Atherstone and Rugeley Trent Valley

 

[miklcct]

I don't believe it is possible to travel by 'regional' train from Crewe to Warrington, and for quite some years it was not possible to travel by regional train from Rugby to Nuneaton, and only rarely from Nuneaton to Stafford. The current regional service along the Trent Valley line is a relatively recent phenomenon, taking advantage of infrastructure that only survived by accident (or restored/built in an upgrading programme)

It seems that Crewe - Warrington is on intercity trains only, but a Euston to at least Oxenholme journey on regional trains remains possible by making a diversion via Manchester, by LNR to Crewe, than Northern / Transport for Wales to Manchester, then Northern to Oxenholme. In contrast, on the East Coast, it is a longer diversion for an EMR Regional train after Grantham (to transfer to the regional train network in East Midlands), and it is simply impossible to go anywhere further then Corby or Didcot if starting on Midland Main Line, and the only way to access the country starting from Great Western Main Line without using intercity trains is via Banbury or Basingstoke. (it is still possible to access East Mainland on regional trains only by transferring at Peterborough; South West England or South Wales by South Western Railway transferring at Southampton).

Also, some stations on the edge of the regional network on the main lines are poorly served, such as Bedwin going west, or Drem going east, making journeys from there basically impossible.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If you were travelling between Warrington and Crewe you'd just use Avanti West Coast because the fare isn't even set by them and isn't so expensive as it could be. If you were going further north and wanted a choice of cheap Advance tickets this would be feasible is what I was saying.

So Avanti doesn't set the fares on the two sections of the WCML where it is the sole operator? That's Warrington-Crewe and Warrington-Wigan.
It's the same on Crewe-Wigan, except Avanti does set the Standard Premium fare; there are also alternative routes via Liverpool or Manchester for that journey.
Avanti does set the fares for Crewe-Preston.

 

[Starmill]

So Avanti doesn't set the fares on the two sections of the WCML where it is the sole operator? That's Warrington-Crewe and Warrington-Wigan.
It's the same on Crewe-Wigan, except Avanti does set the Standard Premium fare; there are also alternative routes via Liverpool or Manchester for that journey.
Avanti does set the fares for Crewe-Preston.

Yes that's a common case. For example Penrith to Carlisle was recently transferred from CrossCountry, correcting an error which I think slipped through in 2008!

 

[leytongabriel]

What about the Reading - Taunton line? Commuter services to Newbury and Bedwyn but still a number of stations serving small towns and villages such as Castle Cary going westwards.

 

[Starmill]

What about the Reading - Taunton line? Commuter services to Newbury and Bedwyn but still a number of stations serving small towns and villages such as Castle Cary going westwards.

No rail services for Somerton or Langport of course, and very few services for Pewsey.

 

[randyrippley]

What about the Reading - Taunton line? Commuter services to Newbury and Bedwyn but still a number of stations serving small towns and villages such as Castle Cary going westwards.

But Somerton, Langport and others long gone

 

[30907]

What about the Reading - Taunton line? Commuter services to Newbury and Bedwyn but still a number of stations serving small towns and villages such as Castle Cary going westwards.

Westbury-Castle Cary is and always was served by the Weymouth line.

 

[D1537]

Look at population.

Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth and Stafford are all significantly bigger than Grantham, the biggest place on the ECML between Peterborough and Doncaster.

The WCML simply has far more large towns and cities than the ECML. For example, whilst Rugby was historically an important stop because of its multiple junctions, these days the district is bigger in population than that of every LNER English destination apart from Peterborough, Doncaster, York and Newcastle (it's about the same as Darlington), and the continued expansion of the logistics parks such as DIRFT and Magna Park means it is still expanding quickly; the new suburb of Houlton will have over 6,000 houses when complete. Stafford is even larger, and Nuneaton not much smaller. If you want to go further north, Wigan, WArrington, Preston and Lancaster are all even bigger.

 

[Mountain Man]

It's not possible directly no, although the service to Wigan and Preston via Liverpool is quite adequate.

No it isn't. That would more than treble the journey time

 

[Bletchleyite]

No it isn't. That would more than treble the journey time

It doesn't overly matter that Avanti operates the "Lancashire Ruhrgebiet" local service (suspect nobody has called it that before, but it's sort of comparable, as is the West Midlands), as you always tend to have spare capacity between Crewe and Preston.

 

[Starmill]

No it isn't. That would more than treble the journey time

Perfectly normal if you just want the cheapest option for it to take more than twice as long. Flixbus Manchester to London sometimes takes roughly three times as long as Avanti West Coast, but if it costs £7 one way, as frequently it does, that may very well be worthwhile.

 

[Ken H]

I think you are being a little harsh. It is a perfectly legitimate question (even though some have taken it to be vaguely accusatorial), and there have been various reasonable answers to account for the differences.

It must be remembered that on the WCML proper (i.e. not the Birmingham 'branch'), the 'regional' train service between London and Crewe is only a recent innovation, really only enabled by the accident of history that various local stations survived (Atherstone, Tamworth LL, Lichfield TV, Rugeley TV) with sparse services in the 1965-2005 era. If they hadn't, I think it unlikely to have happened. As it was, during this era, the number of regional trains north of Rugby was very sparse indeed. North of Crewe, there were very few local stations retained and where they are, they are not served by specific main WCML regional services as such.

Aside from the Southern Region lines, all of the other main lines out of London suffered similar closures outside of the London commuter area in one way or another, there being a blurr sometimes as to what is a regional train or not.

Oh happy days bouncing on a Cl 304 from Atherstone to Manchester once a week for work. There was an early through Rugby - Man Picc thenn then, about 1988. Stopped everywhere to Stockport via Stafford & Stoke then non stop to Piccadilly.
Even stopped Norton Bridge, Burlaston and Wedgewood.
The Rugby - Stafford stoppers must have been running at electrification - maybe before.

 

[RT4038]

The Rugby - Stafford stoppers must have been running at electrification - maybe before.

Since the line opened I expect. The question that has not been fully explained (possibly there is no official explanation?), is why this sparse service was not up for withdrawal in the Beeching Report or subsequently, as similar services were on the other main lines out of London?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Since the line opened I expect. The question that has not been fully explained (possibly there is no official explanation?), is why this sparse service was not up for withdrawal in the Beeching Report or subsequently, as similar services were on the other main lines out of London?

Bearing in mind that commissioning of electrification came after the Re-shaping Report I suspect that there was a ‘give it a chance’ view. I can’t speak for subsequent times.

 

[BeijingDave]

If you were travelling between Warrington and Crewe you'd just use Avanti West Coast because the fare isn't even set by them and isn't so expensive as it could be. If you were going further north and wanted a choice of cheap Advance tickets this would be feasible is what I was saying.

As a Warringtonian, if the route between Warrington and Crewe was severed and I could use only 'local' services (non Intercity), I would be much more likely to travel via Chester.

 

[RT4038]

Bearing in mind that commissioning of electrification came after the Re-shaping Report I suspect that there was a ‘give it a chance’ view. I can’t speak for subsequent times.

I suspect a little embarrassing to be shutting something just modernised also. ( An understandable thought) . So, just an accident of history.....

 

[jfollows]

Oh happy days bouncing on a Cl 304 from Atherstone to Manchester once a week for work. There was an early through Rugby - Man Picc thenn then, about 1988. Stopped everywhere to Stockport via Stafford & Stoke then non stop to Piccadilly.
Even stopped Norton Bridge, Burlaston and Wedgewood.
The Rugby - Stafford stoppers must have been running at electrification - maybe before.

2H17 06:15 Rugby-Piccadilly (06:35 from Atherstone) in the 1990-91 timetable (it wasn't in the 1988 timetable, plus I don't have every year) but with calls at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme as well, 08:56 into Piccadilly.

 

[Ken H]

2H17 06:15 Rugby-Piccadilly (06:35 from Atherstone) in the 1990-91 timetable (it wasn't in the 1988 timetable, plus I don't have every year) but with calls at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme as well, 08:56 into Piccadilly.

Thanks. The year I quoted was a bit of a guess, so could have been 1990-91.
As you can imagine, I took a flask of coffee!

As an aside, I travelled from London to Nuneaton in the same year. Quite late in the evening. the 304 was stabled in a north facing bay at Rogby.

 

[Starmill]

As a Warringtonian, if the route between Warrington and Crewe was severed and I could use only 'local' services (non Intercity), I would be much more likely to travel via Chester.

Yes but if you were making a journey like Crewe to Edinburgh that would be of no particular use to make the prices lower would it? The point was that if Avanti West Coast are full / not available at the cheapest tickets, West Midlands Trains, Northern and to a lesser extent TransPennine Express are more likely to offer them.

Transport for Wales don't sell Advance tickets for Crewe to Chester, even though they offer them for other short hops at fare lower Anytime fares, such as Stockport to Manchester, Wrexham General to Chester or Crewe to Nantwich. They also don't make them available on Chester - Liverpool Lime Street or Warrington Bank Quay, though you can get them on Northern for the latter.

 

[Taunton]

I suspect a little embarrassing to be shutting something just modernised also. ( An understandable thought) . So, just an accident of history.....

A lot of the stations were closed, places like Castlethorpe and Roade about the time that electrification went in. The outlier is just the Nuneaton to Stafford local service, which under initial electrification continued with a handful of daily services, but tied up two 304 emus on inefficient diagrams, passing en route. It wasn't even as if they were continuing the steam local service, as that had been much more frequent. They did however provide about the only main line service to Atherstone, Tamworth and Lichfield, significant towns in their own right, though I doubt a lot of use was made of them. Then again there was nothing local on the main line after Stafford. A few stations were physically there but only handled local traffic turning off before the next main line station, until (marginally) some services between Preston and Oxenholme. Then nothing local between the stations on the main line until ... Motherwell, I think.

I think it was all like this before electrification.

 

[Ken H]

A lot of the stations were closed, places like Castlethorpe and Roade about the time that electrification went in. The outlier is just the Nuneaton to Stafford local service, which under initial electrification continued with a handful of daily services, but tied up two 304 emus on inefficient diagrams, passing en route. It wasn't even as if they were continuing the steam local service, as that had been much more frequent. They did however provide about the only main line service to Atherstone, Tamworth and Lichfield, significant towns in their own right, though I doubt a lot of use was made of them. Then again there was nothing local on the main line after Stafford. A few stations were physically there but only handled local traffic turning off before the next main line station, until (marginally) some services between Preston and Oxenholme. Then nothing local between the stations on the main line until ... Motherwell, I think.

I think it was all like this before electrification.

What about Winsford, Hartford and Acton Bridge which I think are on the WCML
Also Leyland

 

[nw1]

Also Wantage/Grove, and arguably Swindon Eastern Parkway too (can’t remember what the original halt was called, but something near the A419/M4 would do massive numbers these days).

For a brief period in the late 90s there was that hourly Oxford-Bristol service. Such a service could presumably be an ideal one for serving any re-opened stations, as long as it was timed such that there was a large gap between it and the next intercity service behind it.

 

[RT4038]

A lot of the stations were closed, places like Castlethorpe and Roade about the time that electrification went in. The outlier is just the Nuneaton to Stafford local service, which under initial electrification continued with a handful of daily services, but tied up two 304 emus on inefficient diagrams, passing en route. It wasn't even as if they were continuing the steam local service, as that had been much more frequent. They did however provide about the only main line service to Atherstone, Tamworth and Lichfield, significant towns in their own right, though I doubt a lot of use was made of them. Then again there was nothing local on the main line after Stafford. A few stations were physically there but only handled local traffic turning off before the next main line station, until (marginally) some services between Preston and Oxenholme. Then nothing local between the stations on the main line until ... Motherwell, I think.

I think it was all like this before electrification.

Not sure that is quite right - yes, Castlethorpe and Roade were shut at electrification, but I don't think there were any others on the WCML. The intermediate stations on the Roade-Rugby via Weedon section, and between Northampton, Rugby and Nuneaton, and Armitage and Colwich, all closed some time before that. The steam local service on the Stafford-Rugby section was not that much more frequent (7 in 1956 versus 6 in 1976)

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

Is nowhere near a megacity, but Lincoln comes in at around 130 miles on the ECML. Closest I can find is Bristol at about 118 miles but no main intermediate stops.

Britain has no megacities - this is reserved for a settlement with a population of 10 million or more

 

[Starmill]

Britain has no megacities - this is reserved for a settlement with a population of 10 million or more

London is just a shade short of it now, although it still doesn't really compare with the ones near the top of the list.

 

[Chrius56000]

The last W.C.M.L. "Beeching Era" local station closure was Beattock in the Scottish Region – this closed on March 1972 because B.R. couldn't make a case for the large investment needed to make it safe for the new W.C.M.L. electric "Inter–City" service!

Prior to that, Garstang & Catterall closed 3 March 1969 along with Hest Bank, Bolton–Le–Sands and Balshaw Lane & Euxton (Lancashire County Council reopened Balshaw Lane & Euxton as "Euxton Balshaw Lane" in 1988), now served by the Preston –Liverpool Lime Street EMU service.

The previous W.C.M.L. closures were Milnthorpe, Tebay and Shap on 1st July 1968 – these could be reopened as Milnthorpe can be served by Windermere services, and Tebay & Shap by T.P.E. Manchester–Glasgow semi–fast EMUs – as Shap now has no bus services whatsoever it wouldn't be a bad idea!

Carnforth's main line platforms were taken out of passenger use some date in 1970 but it has never been known for certain whether it was a deliberate closure, a blunder on the part of B.R. staff or an electrification bodge–up!

On the M.M.L. and E.C.M.L., most local stopping services were withdrawn in 1958/1959, however, Beal and Belford north of Chathill on the E.C.M.L. survived till March 1968, the previous E.M.C.L. closure prior to that was the last village station between York & Thirsk at Tollerton – this went west in March 1965, altho' it had been "ghostly" since the late 1950s!

The reopening of Reston & East Linton proves its not an impossibility to reinstate main–line local services in rural areas, and eventually much more will have to be done along these lines one day, the alternative being that unless all the inhabitants of rural communities can afford and drive electric cars, there will be a lot of these communities (like Shap) with no access whatsoever to public transport unless their local station can be reopened, because the private bus companies will have no interest whatsoever in serving them – the intermediate villages along the B5300 between Maryport and Silloth are now without any regular public transport whatsoever!

Chris Williams

 

[Springs Branch]

Prior to that, Garstang & Catterall closed 3 March 1969 along with Hest Bank, Bolton–Le–Sands and Balshaw Lane & Euxton (Lancashire County Council reopened Balshaw Lane & Euxton as "Euxton Balshaw Lane" in 1988), now served by the Preston –Liverpool Lime Street EMU service.

The previous W.C.M.L. closures were Milnthorpe, Tebay and Shap on 1st July 1968 – these could be reopened as Milnthorpe can be served by Windermere services, and Tebay & Shap by T.P.E. Manchester–Glasgow semi–fast EMUs – as Shap now has no bus services whatsoever it wouldn't be a bad idea!

Coppull was the other local station that closed at the same time as Balshaw Lane & Euxton (both on 6 October 1969, according to Butt).

From time to time there are calls to re-open Coppull station, since the area has seen a fair bit of residential development in recent decades.

While it might sound plausible for Coppull to be served by the same Northern trains as the current Euxton Balshaw Lane, the WCML has been reduced to double track through Coppull and there are now no slow lines to accommodate platforms for stopping services.

Presumably any business case for re-opening Coppull would never extend to relocating Balshaw Lane Junction southward towards the site of Standish Jn, where the four-track section used to begin prior to 1970s resignalling and electrification.