Avanti delay repay system silently changed my ticket details

[allotments]

Just made a valid delay repay claim for journey Llandudno Junction - Euston using split tickets.

Ticket 1 paper for journey leg LLJ-CRE
Ticket 2 e-ticket for CRE-EUS

Anticipating trouble，I kept a screenshot of all details I supplied, to refer to later.

Response ”we are unable to continue processing your claim“... "some of the required information is missing from your application".

Referring to my saved screenshot I confirmed that nothing was missing, stepped out of the failed unfit for purpose delay repay system and complained to customer services:

"Please stop messing me around every time I claim delay repay. I expect you to pay promptly without sending me around in circles asking for the same information again. Consider this message a complaint and process my claim forthwith."

Response: "you will need to appeal your existing claim" on the delay repay portal.

I checked claim details online.

Ticket 1 had been replaced by e-ticket MKC-EUS (wrong journey, wrong price, neither uploaded by, purchased by, nor used by me).

Screenshot of the spurious e-ticket attached.

This isn't the first time I've seen Avanti change my actual ticket details to a nonsense "nearest match" after I'd submitted, and without informing me.

I contacted Avanti customer support to complain again. This time Avanti created a new delay repay claim which is currently pending but still displaying data that I didn't submit.

I'm now perusing the Consumer Rights Act 2015 - Service to be performed with reasonable care and skill - section 55

"If the service does not conform to the contract, the consumer’s rights... are
(a)the right to require repeat performance
(b)the right to a price reduction"

My requested repeat performance of the service (because delay repay claim was not processed with reasonable care and skill) was initially denied. On asking again a repeat performance has been initiated.

It's quite disturbing to see that customer submitted data is effectively being modified by the software and then the modified version used to process the claim.

This could lead to numerous errors including rejected valid claims and even potential fraud accusations simply because of a software fault.

And this can't be an isolated incident... I recall a ticket of mine being altered silently by the Avanti system about a year ago. How many claims have been affected? What a mess!

 

[Adam Williams]

I've had this happen with other TOC's delay repay systems before, where you are asked for one set of information and then immediately or very shortly afterwards receive an email after submission claiming that you missed providing important information and that therefore your claim has been put on hold and you need to take action for the TOC to actually consider. When you click the link in the email, there are new fields to fill in which 100% weren't there in the first place (and broadly are asking you to regurgitate information that you already provided when you uploaded your ticket).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've had this happen with other TOC's delay repay systems before, where you are asked for one set of information and then immediately or very shortly afterwards receive an email after submission claiming that you missed providing important information and that therefore your claim has been put on hold and you need to take action for the TOC to actually consider. When you click the link in the email, there are new fields to fill in which 100% weren't there in the first place (and broadly are asking you to regurgitate information that you already provided when you uploaded your ticket).

I think this is because they attempt to extract the details (e.g. by optical character recognition (OCR) ) from an uploaded ticket photo/PDF but then fail to do so, so they then ask you to add them. It is a bit annoying.

 

[allotments]

I've had this happen with other TOC's delay repay systems before, where you are asked for one set of information and then immediately or very shortly afterwards receive an email after submission claiming that you missed providing important information and that therefore your claim has been put on hold and you need to take action for the TOC to actually consider. When you click the link in the email, there are new fields to fill in which 100% weren't there in the first place (and broadly are asking you to regurgitate information that you already provided when you uploaded your ticket).

Yes I've had that several times too, but what's worse in the case described in my post is that spurious data has been added and acted upon.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes I've had that several times too, but what's worse in the case described in my post is that spurious data has been added and acted upon.

Is the reference number for the "spurious" ticket similar to your real one, thus suggesting an OCR failure?

 

[Adam Williams]

I think this is because they attempt to extract the details (e.g. by optical character recognition (OCR) ) from an uploaded ticket photo/PDF but then fail to do so, so they then ask you to add them. It is a bit annoying.

If only there was something you could more reliably read in an electronic ticket PDF/screenshot eh

 

[156421]

If only there was something you could more reliably read in an electronic ticket PDF/screenshot eh

Or just ask for manual data input on the original webform

 

[allotments]

Is the reference number for the "spurious" ticket similar to your real one, thus suggesting an OCR failure?

Completely different! The original was a 5 digit paper ticket for the journey LLJ-CRE that's been replaced by an alphanumeric e-ticket number for MKC-EUS.

 

[sot]

Not exactly this but I find that GTR delay repay setups tend to mess up the stations if you have legs of the journey that don't meet in the middle, e.g. OSIs or TFL transfers

 

[Adam Williams]

Just made a valid delay repay claim for journey Llandudno Junction - Euston using split tickets.

Ticket 1 paper for journey leg LLJ-CRE
Ticket 2 e-ticket for CRE-EUS

Out of curiosity more than anything, which retailer did you buy the E-Ticket from?

 

[allotments]

Out of curiosity more than anything, which retailer did you buy the E-Ticket from?

London Northwestern

 

[redreni]

A couple of years ago I had to claim delay repay from Avanti and couldn't find any way of doing it other than using their webform. I found that if you rejected all except necessary cookies, the webform would let you enter all your details and then, when you clicked the button to submit the claim, it would clear the form without submitting and throw an error message. I went through that process two or three times before concluding it wasn't going to work.

When I complained about it they accepted my delay repay claim via email and referred my complaint about the website to their privacy team, which eventually responded to say:

"The cookie on our website that is required to be accepted in order to submit web forms had been miscategorised as a functional cookie as opposed to a required cookie. Google Captcha is a required cookie in terms of enabling the core functionality of the site (to ensure an actual person is submitting a webform).

You should now be able to reject all functional and advertising cookies but still retain the ability to submit webforms. We appreciate you raising this complaint as it was an issue unknown to the Privacy team at the time and it has allowed us to take necessary action to rectify this compliance issue."

I avoid travelling with Avanti whenever I can and managed to avoid them for two years after that. When I did finally travel with them again last month I was, of course, delayed and had to claim delay repay. I was pleased to note, this time, that a PDF claim form can be downloaded from their website, printed, filled in by hand and sent to them by Freepost. This, of course, puts the burden of dealing with their dysfunctional systems onto their staff rather than me, so that's what I did. I have kept copies of everything I sent to them, of course. I've yet to hear back.

 

[Fenchurch SP]

A couple of years ago I was delayed on an early Sunday morning Merstham to Southampton journey with changes at Brighton and Havant. After entering the correct itinerary and submitting the delay repay application something in their system changed the planned itinerary to one using a later direct Brighton to Southampton train, which meant no delay repay.
After a couple more attempts with the same results I complained and was eventually paid the correct amount.

 

[MrJeeves]

A couple of years ago I was delayed on an early Sunday morning Merstham to Southampton journey with changes at Brighton and Havant. After entering the correct itinerary and submitting the delay repay application something in their system changed the planned itinerary to one using a later direct Brighton to Southampton train, which meant no delay repay.
After a couple more attempts with the same results I complained and was eventually paid the correct amount.

Same happened for me recently where GTR decided to ignore my itinerary and put me on a service that would have made me 2 mins late instead of 25.

One appeal (resubmission) fixed that, though.

 

[redreni]

Same happened for me recently where GTR decided to ignore my itinerary and put me on a service that would have made me 2 mins late instead of 25.

One appeal (resubmission) fixed that, though.

It is an inherently difficult and bureaucratic system to administer, to be fair.

Presumably those who do so are expected to guard against paying out compensation to people who were delayed above the threshold because they got on the wrong train, rather than because of disruption. The problem being that the TOC staff, or the AI or whoever or whatever is assessing the claims, presumably doesn't know what information was available to the passenger.

For example, earlier this year I had a booked itinerary starting at Slade Green, but when I got there the line was closed and the ticket office clerk advised me to take a bus to Barnehurst (ticket acceptance was in place) and travel from there. As it happens the data shows the line reopened shortly after that and my booked train was the first train to run over the line after the closure, reaching my first interchange point at London Bridge bang on time. I was already on the bus well on the way to Barnehurst before this was announced, though, and so I had a perfectly valid delay repay claim for the diverted and delayed journey via Barnehurst. I even included a fairly full explanation on the delay repay form but still had my claim rejected and needed to complain to get my rebate.

The situation where an on-time or near on-time arrival would have been possible if the passenger had a crystal ball but the delay occurred despite the passenger acting reasonably based on the information they had at the time is, I think, quite common.

 

[MrJeeves]

The problem being that the TOC staff, or the AI or whoever or whatever is assessing the claims, presumably doesn't know what information was available to the passenger.

My case wasn't particularly clear from my post, really.

I provided it my itinerary which was going to arrive at, let's say 2100. GTR ignored it and assumed I used an itinerary for a journey that would arrive at 2123, which arrived 2L and said I wasn't due compensation.

It wasn't as if I missed a change which could have made up for the delay, or anything similar. In fact I ended up on that service that was going to arrive at 2125, because I took initiative to leave my late running train at Barnham as it had no driver, and board that train (Portsmouth service) instead as it called at Barnham.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Dec 2023 ==

The situation where an on-time or near on-time arrival would have been possible if the passenger had a crystal ball but the delay occurred despite the passenger acting reasonably based on the information they had at the time is, I think, quite common.

I still agree that this is most definitely an issue, and anyone who gets a claim denied because of it would be right to appeal and the state the mitigating circumstance.

 

[allotments]

It is an inherently difficult and bureaucratic system to administer

The level of difficulty administering my claim reported in this post would equate to the knowledge an ordinary passenger would be expected to have, navigating the railway.

On 3rd Nov my itinerary was very simple.

TfW 16:26 LLJ-CTR (on time)
Avanti 17:32 CTR-CRE (arrived 35 late at 18:27)
LNR 18:13 CRE-EUS (missed connection, due arrive EUS 20:24)

The ticket I submitted for 18:13 was an Advance valid on LNR only. The next fastest LNR itinerary 19:13 CRE-EUS was cancelled. 20:13 CRE-EUS arrived EUS after 22:26.

I claimed for > 2 hour delay.

I've now received an email "Decision: Approved
We have confirmed that the delay you experienced was 15 - 29 minutes".

Now drafting response to Avanti: "OK then... If I'm delayed by one of your trains, it's then OK to travel on any of your trains, with an operator specific ticket that's not valid on your trains, in order to minimise the delay. Is that right? Unless you can find another valid itinerary for me to arrive EUS between 20:39 and 20:53, departing Crewe no earlier than 18:37."

I previously missed my connection to 18:13 CRE-EUS due to late running Avanti 17:32 CTR-EUS. On that occasion I asked Crewe booking office to reroute me at earliest opportunity as expected delay >60 minutes (as per Passengers Rights and Obligations 2017 legislation) and was told “You'll have to buy a new ticket.” Avanti delayed me and then they wanted me to pay more to arrive on time. No way.

Please stop messing me around

In the approved email Avanti sent me is a link to a delay repay appeal claim page that doesn't allow any further edits or appeal.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Although you have mentioned that the next available LNR service arrived in London at 22.26, you haven't actually said that you travelled on it. What train did you travel on from Crewe to London?

 

[allotments]

Although you have mentioned that the next available LNR service arrived in London at 22.26, you haven't actually said that you travelled on it. What train did you travel on from Crewe to London?

20:13 CRE-EUS

Google Maps timeline attached