Refused Ticket Collection

[bideford1]

I had a bizarre experience at Liverpool Lime Street yesterday.

I attempted to collect some tickets from the ticket machine for travelling from Lime Street to Barnstaple and back. I had hoped to get a e-ticket, but when purchasing online the GWR app did not give me that option for some reason. I put my debit card in the ticket machine to verify it. Unfortunately, my bank (Chase UK) had technical problems that day, so the card couldn't be recognised by the ticket machine (at least I think that's the reason the ticket machine wouldn't recognise it). Therefore, the ticket machine could not give me my tickets.

I then went to the ticket office and asked to collect my tickets. I presented my Chase debit card, however I was told this cannot be accepted for ticket collection as Chase debit cards don't have the card number on the physical card.

I got my phone out and showed the card details in the Chase app to the person at the ticket office. However, they then told me that they have no way of verifying that what I show them on my phone is true. This is despite the fact that the card details I showed them were the same as the ones I purchased with and that I have to log in to the app using my fingerprint to get them. They also then told me that they do not accept Chase debit cards at all due to Chase debit cards not being 'real' debit cards due to the lack of a number on them. They also said that they can't accept cards from online only banks as they are not actual banks.

The staff at the ticket office told me that they could not deal with the issue at the ticket office. They then told me to phone the train operating company (GWR) who I had bought the tickets from. Thankfully GWR were very helpful, and they were rather perplexed about the situation too. I have two alternative cards, when I phoned GWR they changed my booking so that I could use any card to verify myself at the ticket machines. Around 45 minutes later I managed to get my tickets from the ticket machine.

This has concerned me and I have a few questions for those on here:

If I didn't have an alternative card, would I have been refused my tickets altogether and then refused a refund too as they would not be able to verify me?

Had I not had an alternative card, would I have been refused travel as I couldn't collect the tickets?

Is it correct that you now cannot use online-only banks such as Chase to collect tickets purchased online? It sounded like complete nonsense to me, but that seems to be policy at Lime Street.

There are more banks taking the numbers off of their cards, surely more people will end up encountering this issue?

 

[Haywain]

There are numerous threads about Chase cards and why they should not be used for ticket collection, something that even Chase advise not to do. This is because the card does not use the same card number as you use for online purchasing. Whilst the ticket office staff sound to have been more difficult than necessary, they do not see the card details of the card used to make the purchase so cannot confirm those details from what you showed them.

 

[mangyiscute]

I don't wanna say this for certain, but I'm pretty sure that if you use a website/app that does any card collection by default (which im pretty sure the forums website does) then you can pay and collect with a chase card and it will work fine - I have done it before

 

[jfollows]

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...card-but-is-correct-card.254903/#post-6419189 for an earlier discussion and link to Chase’s own advice not to use the card for this purpose.

 

[Haywain]

I don't wanna say this for certain, but I'm pretty sure that if you use a website/app that does any card collection by default (which im pretty sure the forums website does) then you can pay and collect with a chase card and it will work fine - I have done it before

That does remove the problem.

 

[Watershed]

There are several different parties at fault for this situation, to varying degrees.

I'd say Chase are probably the most 'at fault' party here. For reasons best known to themselves, they decided it'd be a good idea to issue a physical card without a card number printed on it - and whose actual card number differs from the details they give you in the app. The app doesn't even tell you that it's giving you (essentially) false details until you drill down into the 'small print'.

This causes no end of problems with people who have to pick up train tickets, and also people trying to get a refund for something they bought in person (as it's practically impossible for someone to check whether the card you're producing is the same one you originally used to pay).

GWR do carry some liability here as the retailer, since there is really no good reason for setting bookings to 'same card collection' nowadays, given the advent of two-step verification for card payments. If fraud is being committed, it can be caught well before a purchase goes through. If they're going to insist on that policy, they should be providing a prominent warning before you pay, that you must pick up your tickets using a physical card with the same number as the details you use online - and that this means virtual cards (such as Chase's nonsense, as well as Google/Apple/Samsung Pay) won't work.

The staff at Lime Street weren't exactly being as helpful as they could have been, either. Though the industry procedures do insist on the same card being produced, given the well-known problems with Chase cards I think showing the Chase app with the correct card details and a matching transaction, together the booking confirmation email, should have been accepted as sufficient evidence. The suggestion that they can't accept cards from online banks is utter nonsense; there are thousands of legitimate card issuers from all around the world, including credit card companies that don't have any sort of physical presence.

To a very small degree some may argue you bear some responsibility since Chase do advise not to use their card for purposes such as this. However, as a Chase customer myself I must say this warning is not exactly prominent and you may only find it in the app after you've discovered the problem. As mentioned above, they largely cause this problem through their illogical policies that run counter to how just about every other bank and financial institution does things. Given they're the odd one out, that very much suggests they're making things unnecessarily difficult.

For future reference I'd steer clear of both Chase (at least for transactions like these) as well as retailers such as GWR that still require 20th Century validation processes such as this. Unfortunately you don't have much in the way of choice as to your local station staff, and I daresay a Merseyrail managed station would likely have been even worse.

 

[mangyiscute]

Yeah I just ensure that whenever I am getting tickets that must be collected I never use my chase card. Having said that, the couple times I've used it accidentally, the staff in the ticket office have printed out my tickets with no hassle

 

[CyrusWuff]

GWR do carry some liability here as the retailer, since there is really no good reason for setting bookings to 'same card collection' nowadays, given the advent of two-step verification for card payments. If fraud is being committed, it can be caught well before a purchase goes through. If they're going to insist on that policy, they should be providing a prominent warning before you pay, that you must pick up your tickets using a physical card with the same number as the details you use online - and that this means virtual cards (such as Chase's nonsense, as well as Google/Apple/Samsung Pay) won't work.

Worldline sites such as GWR's do say "Please do not pay for your tickets with an e-Card as these are not accepted by self service ticket machines" if you choose TOD, but it's hidden behind a "More info" link instead of prominently displayed during the purchase flow.

 

[156421]

I thought TVMs don't read the card they certainly used to be happy with any magnetic strip card even a Nectar card

 

[Watershed]

Worldline sites such as GWR's do say "Please do not pay for your tickets with an e-Card as these are not accepted by self service ticket machines" if you choose TOD, but it's hidden behind a "More info" link instead of prominently displayed during the purchase flow.

Indeed, which means it could be argued to be an unfair term in a consumer contract (since the penalty for non-compliance could mean forfeiting the value of your tickets, if they involve one or more Advances).

Moreover, why on earth do they use such jargon as 'e-Card'? That's not even an official term, they've just made it up and provided no explanation or example of what they mean by it. I don't think the average person with a Chase card would have any idea that they hold what GWR/Worldline consider an e-Card.

If they were really trying to help people avoid this pitfall, they'd make it so that if the IIN* matched a list of known problematic IINs (such as Chase), a big flashing message came up warning of the likely issues you'd encounter - or better still, it would just prevent you from going ahead with a ToD purchase at all.

They're effectively trying to make their doubts in their own fraud systems the customer's problem rather than improving them and enabling any card collection.

*Issuer Identification Number - the first 6 to 8 digits of the card, which indicate the financial institution that issued a card

 

[FuzzyDuck]

I used my Chase card on Friday to collect tickets without a problem, might avoid it in future however.

 

[Kilopylae]

I thought TVMs don't read the card they certainly used to be happy with any magnetic strip card even a Nectar card

This depends on the TVM manufacturer, so varies between stations.

 

[TUC]

What a surprise that it was staff in the Merseyside area who were unhelpful about a TVM issue...

 

[James H]

used my Chase card on Friday to collect tickets without a problem, might avoid it in future however.

Just make sure you either pay using Apple Pay or Google Pay - or use a retailer that defaults to ‘any card’ collection. That way you still get the Chase cashback.

 

[greyman42]

I then went to the ticket office and asked to collect my tickets. I presented my Chase debit card, however I was told this cannot be accepted for ticket collection as Chase debit cards don't have the card number on the physical card.

I don't believe Nat West do either.

 

[skyhigh]

I don't believe Nat West do either.

Mine does.

 

[greyman42]

Mine does.

I stand corrected. Is it the sort code and account number they don't have?

 

[skyhigh]

I stand corrected. Is it the sort code and account number they don't have?

Yes, no sort code or account number on the card.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Isn’t the problem with Chase that a different card number is used online ? Nothing to do with a number being displayed on the card

 

[mangyiscute]

Isn’t the problem with Chase that a different card number is used online ? Nothing to do with a number being displayed on the card

I think that's why it doesn't work for TOD collection from a ticket machine, but op was saying that the staff in the ticket office wouldn't issue the tickets since they couldn't verify that the card was correct since it doesn't have the number on it (and uses a virtual card number)
Honestly I just wish Chase had a way to turn off the virtual card number, I'd certainly do that if I could.

 

[Aaron1]

Once before when collecting TODs on my Chase card I had issues so I went into the ticket office who after a little bit of persuasion agreed to manually reprint it on the basis it was only a ticket worth £4.80, certainly made me very cautious when using Chase for collecting tickets which is a shame as I like many of their features such as roll ups, cashback and 0% on foreign transactions

 

[M28361M]

I think that's why it doesn't work for TOD collection from a ticket machine, but op was saying that the staff in the ticket office wouldn't issue the tickets since they couldn't verify that the card was correct since it doesn't have the number on it (and uses a virtual card number)

Are booking office staff able to override the card requirement or will the TIS still enforce it?

Interestingly Merseyrail say on their website that you can use any card when collecting from their ticket offices. Don’t know if that is true in practice, but if it is, the OP might have actually had better luck at Lime Street Low Level.

To collect your tickets at a staffed station you must provide your booking reference and a credit or debit card, this does not have to be the card that you purchased the ticket with originally. Both of these things are required for ticket office staff to be able to print off your tickets.

(my emphasis)

More generally, I wonder if there is a way for the online booking systems to detect an “e-card” and automatically set to any card collection. However, with the wider shift to e-tickets it probably isn’t worth investing in the change.

 

[Deafdoggie]

However, with the wider shift to e-tickets it probably isn’t worth investing in the change.

There isn't a shift to e-tickets in Merseyside

 

[156421]

This depends on the TVM manufacturer, so varies between stations.

Just tried at BIF and the nectar card trick no longer works

 

[CyrusWuff]

Are booking office staff able to override the card requirement or will the TIS still enforce it?

It depends on how the TIS has been configured and the TOC's policy on such things.

 

[WelshBluebird]

So despite the blaming of Chase in this thread, it is worth adding some context that:

1. The way Chase deal with card numbers is essentially a security measure. By not having the card number on the card itself, and by using a virtual card number when used, it makes it much less likely for you to have your card details nicked. We should be encouraging heightened card security, not discouraging it.
2. More and more debit cards that act in non traditional way are being issued and used (not quite the same but I use a Curve card which acts as a virtual card to whichever actual card I choose it to use in the app - I think it uses the Curve card's number rather than the underlying cards number, so in theory would be fine, but is still a "non traditional" card), so in my mind the whole industry needs a bit of a wake up call and figure out a way to deal with this (I suspect instead the industry will just sit on its hands and wait as the percentage of bookings fulfilled by ToD drops so much the investment to changing anything isn't worth it).
3. There is no need for a retailer to set anything other than any card for ToD.

Worldline sites such as GWR's do say "Please do not pay for your tickets with an e-Card as these are not accepted by self service ticket machines" if you choose TOD, but it's hidden behind a "More info" link instead of prominently displayed during the purchase flow.

Except "e-card" is a meaningless term though so not sure that wording is at all useful (infact I'd read it to mean a virtual card that can only be used online rather than a card like Chase's debit card that lets you use it in person too - so not at all relevant here)

 

[Haywain]

Except "e-card" is a meaningless term though so not sure that wording is at all useful

I'm not sure that's the case, as completely non-physical cards have been around for a long time. Cards from the likes of Chase are newer and create a new and separate problem.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I'm not sure that's the case, as completely non-physical cards have been around for a long time. Cards from the likes of Chase are newer and create a new and separate problem.

It can be interpreted to mean something specific yes (I had edited my reply to say that I'm assuming they are talking about virtual cards that you can't use in person, only online), but it isn't an official term used by the card industry in the UK as far as I am aware so that meaning is very much up to interpretation rather than being a clear warning.

 

[Starmill]

I'd say Chase are probably the most 'at fault' party here. For reasons best known to themselves, they decided it'd be a good idea to issue a physical card without a card number printed on it - and whose actual card number differs from the details they give you in the app. The app doesn't even tell you that it's giving you (essentially) false details until you drill down into the 'small print'.

They think it's a "security feature", which they told me when I complained to them about it. I also had no idea this was the case with their product until I missed out on some cashback that would have tracked had the numbers been the same, but which I didn't get in the end because I fell into this 'trap'.

I think it's a load of nonsense.

To a very small degree some may argue you bear some responsibility since Chase do advise not to use their card for purposes such as this. However, as a Chase customer myself I must say this warning is not exactly prominent and you may only find it in the app after you've discovered the problem. As mentioned above, they largely cause this problem through their illogical policies that run counter to how just about every other bank and financial institution does things. Given they're the odd one out, that very much suggests they're making things unnecessarily difficult.

The way Chase communicate this may even fail under the FCA's rules. I'd be very interested to know what the Financial Ombudsman might say if a complaint against Chase were referred to them.

Of course, you and the OP and I are all now forewarned about this in future, so are unlikely to have standing. I agree with the recommendation never to use Chase cards for rail tickets unless you're certain the delivery method isn't ToD.

Isn’t the problem with Chase that a different card number is used online ? Nothing to do with a number being displayed on the card

Yes. The actual number used is available for you to view after you've made the transaction. However, that's of course not the number on the physical card.

Moreover, why on earth do they use such jargon as 'e-Card'? That's not even an official term, they've just made it up and provided no explanation or example of what they mean by it. I don't think the average person with a Chase card would have any idea that they hold what GWR/Worldline consider an e-Card.

That's a very strange term. Maybe they were thinking of the term virtual card, which is at least understandable and in more common usage. Of course it's still very u helpful here because Chase don't describe it as a virtual card, but a physical one.

 

[WelshBluebird]

They think it's a "security feature", which they told me when I complained to them about it. I also had no idea this was the case with their product until I missed out on some cashback that would have tracked had the numbers been the same, but which I didn't get in the end because I fell into this 'trap'.

I think it's a load of nonsense.

I'd agree they should be more upfront with what happens, but I disagree about it being nonsense.

The reasoning is that the main use case that people need their actual card number for is shopping online, and in that case having a card number that is different to your real card number for such purposes (often called a virtual card number) is a genuine security measure as it means if the card details get leaked / hacked then they don't get your real card number. I know Apple Pay / Google pay etc offer similar features too, and the Apple credit card (that is only available in the US) does this too. This isn't a Chase only thing by any means. I don't have a Chase account so not sure how in depth they go with it, but some other companies go further and create a different card number for each retailer or each time you want to use your card.