Tyne & Wear Metro Fleet Replacement: Awarded to Stadler

[DanNCL]

Two 555s are currently stabled at St Margrethen station, reported as 555001 and 555002. If so then my mention of Velim yesterday wasn’t well timed as it would appear that the 555s have left Velim and returned to Switzerland.

If the testing at Velim is now complete that’s a very good sign that progress is being made.

Do we know why they may be trying to minimise daytime testing before the units enter passenger service? Sounds quite bizarre.

At a guess probably to reduce the likelihood of passengers noticing the new trains out and complaining they’re not in service. Just my thoughts though, I don’t know if this is actually what they are doing or not.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Do we know why they may be trying to minimise daytime testing before the units enter passenger service? Sounds quite bizarre

If one of the on-test units has a problem in the daytime it’ll cause absolute mayhem. I don’t believe a 555 can be rescued by a Metrocar, or vice versa.

 

[The Laziest]

At a guess probably to reduce the likelihood of passengers noticing the new trains out and complaining they’re not in service. Just my thoughts though, I don’t know if this is actually what they are doing or not.

That is a good point actually, and it is not hard to imagine the public complaining.

If one of the on-test units has a problem in the daytime it’ll cause absolute mayhem. I don’t believe a 555 can be rescued by a Metrocar, or vice versa.

How would this be any different from when the first unit enters service (in case of breakdown I mean)? This is a genuine question.

 

[DanNCL]

If one of the on-test units has a problem in the daytime it’ll cause absolute mayhem. I don’t believe a 555 can be rescued by a Metrocar, or vice versa.

Metrocars and 555s can rescue each other but a coupler adapter is required so it takes longer to do than a rescue by a classmate would. The adapter is the same one used for the initial deliveries from Pelaw and is portable, believe it can be moved in a transit van if required.
If absolutely needed adapters also exist to allow mainline stock to rescue Metro stock but as far as I know it's never needed to be used in the 21 years of shared operation on the Sunderland line.

 

[Tetchytyke]

How would this be any different from when the first unit enters service (in case of breakdown I mean)? This is a genuine question.

It’s a very good question. On Merseyrail they restricted the new trains to the largely self-contained Kirkby line until they had a certain level of confidence. Even on Merseyrail it’s not been pain free.

Metrocars and 555s can rescue each other but a coupler adapter is required so it takes longer to do than a rescue by a classmate would.

Thanks, that makes sense. Not something to do lightly until there’s a certain base level of confidence in the new units.

 

[ModernRailways]

If one of the on-test units has a problem in the daytime it’ll cause absolute mayhem.

One of the recent tests carried out was the current fleet rescuing the new fleet, and I believe it was also tested the other way round too. As @DanNCL says, an adapter is needed but most of the network is reachable within at most 1 hour in a van. If they think it's going to be needed it may even be worth the new fleet carrying an adapter for the first while, they'll likely be riding round with an engineer on board anyway. I imagine the bigger issue is the current fleet failing and needing rescued and this is only going to become more likely, at which point the old fleet could then do with an emergency coupler being carried in a B end cab.

Do we know why they may be trying to minimise daytime testing before the units enter passenger service? Sounds quite bizarre.

It's significantly better to do simulated testing at night with no passengers around. Doors can be released, the gap fillers can be checked for level etc. If this was done during the day passengers may attempt to board. Daylight testing will however be necessary, along with simulated testing during the day, doors would not be released, but train would stop and dwell and then depart as a normal service train would.

having the three already here enter passenger service would be a great starting point. The service has really got worse since February.

I do understand that the testing is still ongoing, but how could Nexus have planned their entry into service so poorly? The trains were originally due to enter passenger service in Summer 2023, but this has already been postponed multiple times and the new deadline is now May/June 2024. Do they not know how long testing for a new unit takes?

I believe 003 is the unit being used for the full suite of testing that will be needed for ORR approval with 004 and 005 undertaking testing alongside.
The service is only going to get worse so I'd not expect any improvements soon. Once the new fleet does start revenue earning service they will likely be kept to short diagrams, though I can see them partly covering a full diagram until a new set can be shunted out should a failure occur.
Any timescale Nexus gives out you should always add either months or years too, not sure they've ever delivered a project on time, let alone a train service

Part of me is wondering whether the testing is really going as well as advertised, because it certainly looks like they are trying not to have the Class 555 enter passenger service at all.

From what I know from old colleagues, the testing is going fairly well for a brand new train but there are numerous niggles. Trust me when I say they will be doing their darndest to get them into service as quickly, and safely, as possible.

 

[DanNCL]

One of the recent tests carried out was the current fleet rescuing the new fleet, and I believe it was also tested the other way round too. As @DanNCL says, an adapter is needed but most of the network is reachable within at most 1 hour in a van. If they think it's going to be needed it may even be worth the new fleet carrying an adapter for the first while, they'll likely be riding round with an engineer on board anyway. I imagine the bigger issue is the current fleet failing and needing rescued and this is only going to become more likely, at which point the old fleet could then do with an emergency coupler being carried in a B end cab.

The adapters are certainly a good investment and it wouldn't hurt to have several of them. Even once the Metrocars are all gone there'll still be a purpose for the adapters as the battery locos will still be around.

It's significantly better to do simulated testing at night with no passengers around. Doors can be released, the gap fillers can be checked for level etc. If this was done during the day passengers may attempt to board. Daylight testing will however be necessary, along with simulated testing during the day, doors would not be released, but train would stop and dwell and then depart as a normal service train would.

The train-platform interface testing has already been done, it was done on the initial route proving runs with 003. The simulated testing will likely be more focused on making sure that frequent open/close cycles of the doors and gap fillers are reliable and that the automated announcements work as intended.

I would hazard a guess that, as has long been the case with the current fleet when on test after overhaul, as much of the daytime testing as possible would be confined to the Airport branch so that if things did go wrong it wouldn't bring the entire network to a halt.

The other Stadler fleets in the UK have generally released the doors on daytime simulated testing, with a barrier not too dissimilar to the driver training barriers on the Metrocars being used to prevent passengers from boarding.

The service is only going to get worse so I'd not expect any improvements soon. Once the new fleet does start revenue earning service they will likely be kept to short diagrams, though I can see them partly covering a full diagram until a new set can be shunted out should a failure occur.

Keeping them to diagrams that don't require stabling at Howdon will probably also be a priority to start with. That instantly rules a lot of the diagrams out.

 

[ModernRailways]

The train-platform interface testing has already been done, it was done on the initial route proving runs with 003. The simulated testing will likely be more focused on making sure that frequent open/close cycles of the doors and gap fillers are reliable and that the automated announcements work as intended.

Gauge testing is what was done initially and is not what I was talking about. The gap fillers and doors will need tested multiple times to ensure they always behave correctly.

Keeping them to diagrams that don't require stabling at Howdon will probably also be a priority to start with. That instantly rules a lot of the diagrams out.

The new fleet can be stabled at Howdon but Gosforth is preferred. Diagrams will be changed, but as I say, at first it's likely they would only end up on a full diagram temporarily if needed to cover a unit failure (that can be moved) whilst another set is prepped and brought out.

 

[DanNCL]

Gauge testing is what was done initially and is not what I was talking about. The gap fillers and doors will need tested multiple times to ensure they always behave correctly.

In which case we’re referring to the same thing for the simulated tests, ensuring that the gap fillers are reliable.

The new fleet can be stabled at Howdon but Gosforth is preferred. Diagrams will be changed, but as I say, at first it's likely they would only end up on a full diagram temporarily if needed to cover a unit failure (that can be moved) whilst another set is prepped and brought out.

That's what I was getting at, keeping them at Gosforth each night would be a priority because it's a Stadler facility.

 

[Paul_10]

Am I missing something here, surely the daytime testing would also have to include driver training so they have to be tested on every part of the system and not just restricted to a small part of the system?

Either way unless we see constant daytime testing then we know the new fleet are not close to entering passenger service.

 

[The Laziest]

From what I know from old colleagues, the testing is going fairly well for a brand new train but there are numerous niggles. Trust me when I say they will be doing their darndest to get them into service as quickly, and safely, as possible.

Considering the current service is far from decent, I would not be surprised if more people started getting the bus instead as it gets worse.

I am certainly being over dramatic here, but Nexus will certainly want to be careful about the service they provide, because if numbers start to hit dangerously low levels, I can see the government making an argument that the service is no longer needed and it being shut down. I suppose Nexus’ argument could be the poor reliability of the fleet, but I do wonder if it would hold up.

 

[DanNCL]

Am I missing something here, surely the daytime testing would also have to include driver training so they have to be tested on every part of the system and not just restricted to a small part of the system?

They've already been tested on the whole network overnight. Unlike the old fleet a lot of the training for the new fleet can be done on a simulator. Obviously there'll need to be some daytime testing and driver training runs but it might not be as many as one may have expected previously.

Considering the current service is far from decent, I would not be surprised if more people started getting the bus instead as it gets worse.

I think a very recent 6 week all out bus strike has done a pretty good job of putting people off the bus...

I am certainly being over dramatic here, but Nexus will certainly want to be careful about the service they provide, because if numbers start to hit dangerously low levels, I can see the government making an argument that the service is no longer needed and it being shut down. I suppose Nexus’ argument could be the poor reliability of the fleet, but I do wonder if it would hold up.

Closing a railway is near impossible these days, there's too many regulatory hurdles. In any case the government aren't going to pull the plug on a network where they've just spent on over £300 million on new trains for that still has to be paid to Stadler whether the trains are used or not.

 

[trebor79]

Closing a railway is near impossible these days, there's too many regulatory hurdles. In any case the government aren't going to pull the plug on a network where they've just spent on over £300 million on new trains for that still has to be paid to Stadler whether the trains are used or not.

Hasn't stopped them scrapping/storing a load of TPE Mk5 carriages. And the previous Stansted Express fleet was barely 10 years old before it was laid up.

 

[DanNCL]

Hasn't stopped them scrapping/storing a load of TPE Mk5 carriages. And the previous Stansted Express fleet was barely 10 years old before it was laid up.

Neither are comparable as both were leases and in both cases something else is covering the work they used to do. Completely different from a fleet purchased outright, most of the money for it coming from the treasury, for work that can’t be done by anything else.

 

[ModernRailways]

In which case we’re referring to the same thing for the simulated tests, ensuring that the gap fillers are reliable.


That's what I was getting at, keeping them at Gosforth each night would be a priority because it's a Stadler facility.

It's almost as if you replied quoting exactly what I said but didn't bother reading what I had fully written out.

Am I missing something here, surely the daytime testing would also have to include driver training so they have to be tested on every part of the system and not just restricted to a small part of the system?

Unlike the old fleet a lot of the training for the new fleet can be done on a simulator. Obviously there'll need to be some daytime testing and driver training runs but it might not be as many as one may have expected previously.

Driver training will require drivers to run across the whole system for sure. Stopping positions are different, and the way the train interacts with the PTI is also different. Simulators will mainly help for drivers familiarising themselves with the controls of the unit, they still require a not insignificant number of real world hours before they can be signed off.

I am certainly being over dramatic here, but Nexus will certainly want to be careful about the service they provide, because if numbers start to hit dangerously low levels, I can see the government making an argument that the service is no longer needed and it being shut down. I suppose Nexus’ argument could be the poor reliability of the fleet, but I do wonder if it would hold up.

The service wouldn't be shut down, but it could be a case of a further reduction in services. It could be a case of off-peak trains are every 20 mins (10 through core), then during the peak that changes with a few additional services where the fleet availability allows but it would certainly require something considerably more catastrophic for the service to be shut down, though that isn't to say we won't see temporary system shut downs, but that would just purely be temporary and certainly nothing permanent.

 

[DanNCL]

I understand a 555 is expected to come through the channel tunnel tonight. I don’t have any further details than that at present.

The latest working timetable has a new train running board, TRB 200, which makes a number of empty trips between St James and Four Lane Ends throughout the course of the day, as well as a couple of trips into North Shields P3. I’m not certain but I believe it may be a daytime testing/training path for the 555s, to be used as required.

The service wouldn't be shut down, but it could be a case of a further reduction in services. It could be a case of off-peak trains are every 20 mins (10 through core), then during the peak that changes with a few additional services where the fleet availability allows but it would certainly require something considerably more catastrophic for the service to be shut down, though that isn't to say we won't see temporary system shut downs, but that would just purely be temporary and certainly nothing permanent.

Every 24 minutes would be my guess if it did have to go down to an emergency timetable.

 

[ModernRailways]

Every 24 minutes would be my guess if it did have to go down to an emergency timetable.

Nexus enjoy being able to say Xtph, every 24 minutes would be 2tph (4tph through core), that does not make for a good pr release. Every 15 minutes and they could advertise 4tph (8 through core), a reduction of 1tph, or they could go every 20 minutes 3tph (6 through core).
Every 24 minutes would not be suitable and would need supplemented.


A total aside, but the new Glasgow Subway trains finally entered service today, they are also made by Stadler and as with most Stadler stock in the UK they are receiving high praise. I criticise Nexus a lot, but I do think in picking Stadler they made a very good decision, especially in the long term. It's just the issue of the actual infrastructure that Nexus 'maintains'

 

[DanNCL]

Nexus enjoy being able to say Xtph, every 24 minutes would be 2tph (4tph through core), that does not make for a good pr release. Every 15 minutes and they could advertise 4tph (8 through core), a reduction of 1tph, or they could go every 20 minutes 3tph (6 through core).
Every 24 minutes would not be suitable and would need supplemented.

I don’t disagree that every 24 minutes isn’t suitable. I was mainly going off Nexus’s track record of being incompetent!

A total aside, but the new Glasgow Subway trains finally entered service today, they are also made by Stadler and as with most Stadler stock in the UK they are receiving high praise. I criticise Nexus a lot, but I do think in picking Stadler they made a very good decision, especially in the long term. It's just the issue of the actual infrastructure that Nexus 'maintains'

Fully agreed. CRRC whilst it might have paid off would have been a huge gamble and could easily have backfired had they picked it, whilst Bombardier/Alstom, Hitachi and CAF have all had delays and quality issues with their latest UK products.
The only other manufacturer besides Stadler that could have delivered a similar quality product didn’t make the shortlist (Siemens).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2023 ==


555013 and 555015 came through the Channel Tunnel last night and are now at Dollands Moor.

 

[Killingworth]

Am I imagining it that when the Metro first opened my father proudly told how he could catch a service from Ilford Road to Haymarket every 3 or 4 minutes, go to Marks and Spencers for a quick shop and get home again in half an hour? He thought it was brilliant. Last time I was on Tyneside it was anything but brilliant so good times can't come soon enough!

 

[DanNCL]

Am I imagining it that when the Metro first opened my father proudly told how he could catch a service from Ilford Road to Haymarket every 3 or 4 minutes, go to Marks and Spencers for a quick shop and get home again in half an hour? He thought it was brilliant. Last time I was on Tyneside it was anything but brilliant so good times can't come soon enough!

For the first few years of Metro that did happen. Trains every 10 minutes for the Green line Bank Foot - South Shields and the Yellow line St James - Pelaw, with the Red line providing extra Benton - Pelaw trains. The Blue line also ran providing extra St James - North Shields trains using North Shields P3.

The Airport extension in the 90s put a bit of extra pressure on the fleet but the general frequency remained the same. It was the Sunderland extension in 2002 that led to it being cut down to what it is today.

 

[Wallsendmag]

For the first few years of Metro that did happen. Trains every 10 minutes for the Green line Bank Foot - South Shields and the Yellow line St James - Pelaw, with the Red line providing extra Benton - Pelaw trains. The Blue line also ran providing extra St James - North Shields trains using North Shields P3.

The Airport extension in the 90s put a bit of extra pressure on the fleet but the general frequency remained the same. It was the Sunderland extension in 2002 that led to it being cut down to what it is should be today.

Fixed that for you

 

[Killingworth]

For the first few years of Metro that did happen. Trains every 10 minutes for the Green line Bank Foot - South Shields and the Yellow line St James - Pelaw, with the Red line providing extra Benton - Pelaw trains. The Blue line also ran providing extra St James - North Shields trains using North Shields P3.

The Airport extension in the 90s put a bit of extra pressure on the fleet but the general frequency remained the same. It was the Sunderland extension in 2002 that led to it being cut down to what it is today.

So it was the Mackems at the bottom of this then

It's possibly more reliable to walk from Ilford Road to the Haymarket nowadays. I used to do that in about 35 minutes when younger.

 

[DanNCL]

Fixed that for you

thanks

So it was the Mackems at the bottom of this then

It's possibly more reliable to walk from Ilford Road to the Haymarket nowadays. I used to do that in about 35 minutes when younger.

Ultimately it was down to Nexus not purchasing any extra stock for the Sunderland extension. Although that would have caused additional complications, certainly any extra stock wouldn’t have been more Metrocars but rather another design, based off what was in production at the time likely either a T68A derivative (which would have been a disaster) or a B90 derivative (maybe more successful). That’d have then led to an issue now with only some of the fleet being life expired, giving an option of either keeping two separate vehicle types longer term or replacing vehicles at half life to get a uniform fleet. So maybe it was better not to acquire any extra stock for the Sunderland extension after all.

 

[mad_rich]

Weirdly, I haven't noticed any reduction in service at all over the last couple of years. I know it has reduced dramatically, because people tell me and so does the on-time performance, but I don't think I'd have noticed it. I'm more aware of having to guess whether Haymarket will be open or not!

Perhaps it's because I'm not commuting, and I'm mostly using the core, but I just turn up at South Gosforth and there's usually no appreciable wait. If I'm outside the core, I'll check the app for next train anyway.

Agree that new trains won't fix cable thefts, anti-social behaviour, vandalism, track/ power/ signalling defects etc.

 

[Tramfan]

Weirdly, I haven't noticed any reduction in service at all over the last couple of years. I know it has reduced dramatically, because people tell me and so does the on-time performance, but I don't think I'd have noticed it. I'm more aware of having to guess whether Haymarket will be open or not!

Perhaps it's because I'm not commuting, and I'm mostly using the core, but I just turn up at South Gosforth and there's usually no appreciable wait. If I'm outside the core, I'll check the app for next train anyway.

Agree that new trains won't fix cable thefts, anti-social behaviour, vandalism, track/ power/ signalling defects etc.

The timetable outside of the peak periods has remained at the same frequency for many years, the major change this year being the removal of the short workings to monkseaton and pelaw during the peaks.

 

[800001]

I don’t disagree that every 24 minutes isn’t suitable. I was mainly going off Nexus’s track record of being incompetent!


Fully agreed. CRRC whilst it might have paid off would have been a huge gamble and could easily have backfired had they picked it, whilst Bombardier/Alstom, Hitachi and CAF have all had delays and quality issues with their latest UK products.
The only other manufacturer besides Stadler that could have delivered a similar quality product didn’t make the shortlist (Siemens).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2023 ==


555013 and 555015 came through the Channel Tunnel last night and are now at Dollands Moor.

Path is in Real time trains (link attached below) for Thursday 14th December Wembley to York Holgate sidings.

Realtime Trains | 7Q55 0112 Wembley Receptions 1-7 to York Holgate Siding (Gbrf) | 14/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 7Q55 0112 departure from Wembley Receptions 1-7 to York Holgate Siding (Gbrf) on 14/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[DanNCL]

Path is in Real time trains (link attached below) for Thursday 14th December Wembley to York Holgate sidings.

Realtime Trains | 7Q55 0112 Wembley Receptions 1-7 to York Holgate Siding (Gbrf) | 14/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 7Q55 0112 departure from Wembley Receptions 1-7 to York Holgate Siding (Gbrf) on 14/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Paths also in for Wednesday 13th December Dollands Moor - Wembley and Thursday 14th December York Holgate - Pelaw.

Realtime Trains | 7Q42 1725 Dollands Moor Sdgs to Wembley Receptions 1-7 | 13/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 7Q42 1725 departure from Dollands Moor Sdgs to Wembley Receptions 1-7 on 13/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 7Q56 2148 York Holgate Siding (Gbrf) to Pelaw Goods Loops | 14/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 7Q56 2148 departure from York Holgate Siding (Gbrf) to Pelaw Goods Loops on 14/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Space at Gosforth has been created for them by temporarily outstabling four pairs of Metrocars in the city centre tunnels overnight - a pair in each of the overrun tunnels at St James and a pair in each platform at St James. Additional stabling space at Gosforth will be ready in the New Year.

 

[ExRes]

Paths also in for Wednesday 13th December Dollands Moor - Wembley and Thursday 14th December York Holgate - Pelaw.

Realtime Trains | 7Q42 1725 Dollands Moor Sdgs to Wembley Receptions 1-7 | 13/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 7Q42 1725 departure from Dollands Moor Sdgs to Wembley Receptions 1-7 on 13/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 7Q56 2148 York Holgate Siding (Gbrf) to Pelaw Goods Loops | 14/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 7Q56 2148 departure from York Holgate Siding (Gbrf) to Pelaw Goods Loops on 14/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Space at Gosforth has been created for them by temporarily outstabling four pairs of Metrocars in the city centre tunnels overnight - a pair in each of the overrun tunnels at St James and a pair in each platform at St James. Additional stabling space at Gosforth will be ready in the New Year.

7Q55 cancelled at Wembley due to a signal failure, no further schedule showing as yet

 

[dodecahedron67]

555013 and 015 in York Holgate Loop right now

 

[DanNCL]

New delivery path tonight to Pelaw

Realtime Trains | 7Q56 2137 York Holgate Siding (Gbrf) to Pelaw Goods Loops | 15/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 7Q56 2137 departure from York Holgate Siding (Gbrf) to Pelaw Goods Loops on 15/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Suspect tonight’s test run down to South Hylton may not run as a result.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Dec 2023 ==


Update 01:14, 16/12/2023:
555013 and 555015 have arrived at Pelaw. 555003 is taking them onwards to Gosforth. All remaining deliveries will be dragged by an already delivered 555, no more 4 unit Metrocar formations.
As 555003 is collecting the new deliveries, tonight’s simulated service test run to South Hylton has been cancelled.