Do you think that the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic?

[Bletchleyite]

Well maybe you should cast your mind back less than 48 hours to your post in this very thread, #2793, in which you said: "They are a VERY bad idea because they imply entitlement to on street parking outside one's home."
This statement is even more surprising, considering that I concurred with your view in this thread's very next post, #2794.

The issue isn't parking there at all, the issue is that it implies a greater permission to park directly outside one's own home rather than e.g. elsewhere on the street.

 

[The Ham]

Maybe some EV owners will join me once they are paying per mile to drive in London?

Pay per mile (or something to replicate it, for example urban zone charging) is likely to happen across the country in time.

If for no other reason than there's going to be a target large hole in tax receipts from the loss of fuel duty.

 

[bspahh]

Don't the fumes and particulates it's spewing out count for anything? How using something that pumps filth into the atmosphere every second it's switched on can be better for the environment than an EV is beyond me.

Most of the filth that it pumps into the atmosphere is in the fens and on A-roads. Building new cars also creates pollution.

Depending upon the mileage you do, and what you replace it with, you might find you save money by getting rid of it and buying an EV. My Tesla (so relatively expensive) nearly covers it's monthly financing costs as I spend about £45 a month on electricity instead of circa £400 on petrol and about £40 on engine oil for the knackered old 208 it replaced. No servicing required other than tyres and brakes as necessary and replace the cabin air filter every couple of years (about £20 for parts and Tesla have a video showing you how to DIY).

In the last 6 months, I have spent £1220 on diesel to drive 7575 miles (16p/mile). I have paid around about nothing for depreciation (its a Mondeo that I bought for £8500 9 years ago). It has done 211k miles and uses oil when its serviced. It doesn't lay down a James Bond smoke screen when I accelerate. Servicing is a couple of hundred quid a year. Repairs are ~ £500 a year. That works out at about £250 a month.

For a 4 year lease for 15k miles a year in a Tesla 3
https://www.selectcarleasing.co.uk/...-auto?mileage=15000&term=48&initial_payment=1
quotes £626 a month with 1 month up front. A Kia Niro EV is £473 a month for the base model.

 

[trebor79]

For a 4 year lease for 15k miles a year in a Tesla 3
https://www.selectcarleasing.co.uk/...-auto?mileage=15000&term=48&initial_payment=1
quotes £626 a month with 1 month up front. A Kia Niro EV is £473 a month for the base model.

Leasing is a waste of money, you're just paying depreciation + profit on someone else's asset.
I got a cheap bank loan and bought outright.

There are loads of nearly new and in some cases brand new EV's with 250+ mile ranges which are much cheaper than a Tesla.

 

[bspahh]

Leasing is a waste of money, you're just paying depreciation + profit on someone else's asset.
I got a cheap bank loan and bought outright.

There are loads of nearly new and in some cases brand new EV's with 250+ mile ranges which are much cheaper than a Tesla.

£33k gets a year old KIA Niro EV. Borrowing £33k for 7 years at Tescobank.com costs £508.24 a month. That is still double what I'm paying.

I've got a car which does what I need. If I needed to drive in a low emissions zone, then an electric car might be cheaper. I don't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

£33k gets a year old KIA Niro EV. Borrowing £33k for 7 years at Tescobank.com costs £508.24 a month. That is still double what I'm paying.

All cars are expensive at the moment. But one year old is still quite expensive, a classic tipping point is about 3 years old due to the market being flooded with ex-lease cars, which has started to include good value EVs.

Cazoo (known for being rather expensive!) has a good selection of Niro EVs for far less than that aged between 2 and 3 years. Cheapest is £20K with 40K miles on the clock. I'd buy that if it wasn't for the fact that I don't fit a Niro comfortably, sadly, I do like them!

 

[trebor79]

Most of the filth that it pumps into the atmosphere is in the fens and on A-roads.

Well, that's alright then.

£33k gets a year old KIA Niro EV. Borrowing £33k for 7 years at Tescobank.com costs £508.24 a month. That is still double what I'm paying.

I've got a car which does what I need. If I needed to drive in a low emissions zone, then an electric car might be cheaper. I don't.

What about a 1 year old MG4 for £21k, or Hyundai Kona £19k.There's a private seller with a 22 plate Niro for £15k on autotrader too.

 

[bspahh]

Well, that's alright then.

What about a 1 year old MG4 for £21k, or Hyundai Kona £19k.There's a private seller with a 22 plate Niro for £15k on autotrader too.

It seems that the MG4 is a nice enough car, with a really poor touch screen. I'm not convinced that they will support it well for the long term.

The Kona and Niro have a reasonable range, but the first generation models only charge at 50kW. The current model Niro charges a little faster, and I would think about one if I had to change my car today. I don't, so I'm happy to wait.

 

[Eyersey468]

Leasing is a waste of money, you're just paying depreciation + profit on someone else's asset.
I got a cheap bank loan and bought outright.

There are loads of nearly new and in some cases brand new EV's with 250+ mile ranges which are much cheaper than a Tesla.

What about those that can't afford new or nearly new? When I bought my Focus diesel at 6 years old, the only EVs that were an equivalent price were 10+ year old Leafs, which struggle to do 100 miles to a charge. No thanks.

 

[trebor79]

What about those that can't afford new or nearly new? When I bought my Focus diesel at 6 years old, the only EVs that were an equivalent price were 10+ year old Leafs, which struggle to do 100 miles to a charge. No thanks.

As I said, you need to factor in the very significant fuel and maintenance savings.
Yes, sharp intake of breath when you see the price, but then basically divide your fuel bill by 10 and take out all the "routine servicing" costs.

 

[Bantamzen]

As I said, you need to factor in the very significant fuel and maintenance savings.
Yes, sharp intake of breath when you see the price, but then basically divide your fuel bill by 10 and take out all the "routine servicing" costs.

That doesn't help if you still can't afford the initial outlay or raise the credit. Eventually prices will come more into scope for people on lower incomes or worse credit ratings, although I suspect that battery prices will also have to follow downward price trends as I imagine that battery performance and degradation are going to be much of a deciding factor in the used EV market.

https://www.kerbocharge.com/ says that other people can use the charger. The owner of the house gets 4p/kWh (presumably on top of the price of the electricity).

This looks like an interesting possible solution for on-street charging, although as the discussion upthread shows it will not be without it's problems, especially if people are looking to profit from it. Plus who will be liable if the cables not fully pressed into the gully and someone trips over them, or if the lid becomes damaged (which they will), or even who would be responsible for their replacement following street works? What sounds like a decent enough idea on the surface, could quickly become a bit of a nightmare.

 

[trebor79]

That doesn't help if you still can't afford the initial outlay or raise the credit. Eventually prices will come more into scope for people on lower incomes or worse credit ratings, although I suspect that battery prices will also have to follow downward price trends as I imagine that battery performance and degradation are going to be much of a deciding factor in the used EV market.

There are a host of circa £20k 250 mile range cars coming to the market over the next 12 months. I suspect the used prices will continue on their march toward parity with ICE vehicles of similar age as the price of new vehicles reaches parity.
Battery prices have indeed fallen very significantly int eh past decade, and there are indication that the price will drop below $100/kWh next year or 2025. We're just seeing the start of a battery recycling industry too, which will help to reduce pressure on raw material prices (though as eve, the raw materials only account for a small portion of the cost).

 

[Bantamzen]

There are a host of circa £20k 250 mile range cars coming to the market over the next 12 months. I suspect the used prices will continue on their march toward parity with ICE vehicles of similar age as the price of new vehicles reaches parity.
Battery prices have indeed fallen very significantly int eh past decade, and there are indication that the price will drop below $100/kWh next year or 2025. We're just seeing the start of a battery recycling industry too, which will help to reduce pressure on raw material prices (though as eve, the raw materials only account for a small portion of the cost).
View attachment 148498

And I'm sure prices will fall further, although I do note that increase in 2022, market forces starting to come into play? However regardless of the falling cost, they will have to become cheap enough for the second hand market to stomach which may still take time.

 

[jon0844]

I was thinking the other day that many station car parks offer free EV charging, subject to paying to park, and if you were a commuter that was parking anyway it would make sense to charge there every day and potentially never need to pay to charge your car at all.

Get an annual season and you could charge even when you're not working (albeit I think only at around 7kWh so not practical for short visits - but ideal for someone parked up for 9 or 10 hours).

 

[jon0844]

While it has been kept low, it's still very high. Another reason a lot of people can save big with an EV if they can charge from home or use more affordable chargers. Fossil fuel isn't getting cheaper, even with the odd price cut here and there.

 

[E27007]

Wasn't there a big problem (almost a scam if you will) where a lot of taxi drivers were buying cheap Prius' with non-working/faulty batteries and using them on petrol exclusively? I can't quite remember the fuss at the time, but assume there was some financial benefit of using a hybrid even if you didn't actually use the battery.

A Prius will not operate on petrol without a traction battery connected and present in the car, the traction battery is an essential part of the three-way powertrain comprised of motor-generators , IC engine, traction battery. Prius traction batteries are very reliable and durable, the cells are of a design known as Prism cells

 

[Cowley]

I’ve moved some of the posts discussing ULEZ into this thread:

ULEZ - Plans (and would you have to pay?)

If you are unsure use the TfL checker: https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/check-your-vehicle/ As all ULEZ's use the same criteria

www.railforums.co.uk

Could we try and stick to the original subject matter in this one now where possible please everyone.
Thanks.

 

[matacaster]

Yes, I think there's a good case to change how parking works in such areas, with designated spaces being rented to specific households for a much higher fee than at present so they can charge their EV.



Have you never been to a terraced street? If not, I'd suggest going and playing with Google Streetview before revising that comment.

On a visit to Manchester suburbs cars were parked nose to rail on both sides of long, narrow residential roads, all partly on pavements. I had considerable difficulty weaving my way through, no chance of emergency vehicles getting through. There were no spaces at all to park and the idea that one could reasonably allocate parking spaces is a joke. Larger SUVs make matters worse.

 

[The Ham]

On a visit to Manchester suburbs cars were parked nose to rail on both sides of long, narrow residential roads, all partly on pavements. I had considerable difficulty weaving my way through, no chance of emergency vehicles getting through. There were no spaces at all to park and the idea that one could reasonably allocate parking spaces is a joke. Larger SUVs make matters worse.

And this is one of the many reasons we need fewer (note not none, just not as many as we're have) cars.

As I've said elsewhere:

Incase anyone isn't aware, my job; Highway Engineer. As such you may have thought that I'd want as many people to drive as possible. No my job is to make the roads I design safe for all users and ensure that we don't end up with significant traffic congestion. The best way to achieve both those goals - have as many people as possible walking, and if that's not viable, cycling and if that's not viable, using public transport and if that's not viable using shared vehicles (car clubs and taxis) and then and only then then considering using there own car.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On a visit to Manchester suburbs cars were parked nose to rail on both sides of long, narrow residential roads, all partly on pavements. I had considerable difficulty weaving my way through, no chance of emergency vehicles getting through.

Generally the gap is wide enough that you'd get a fire engine in (2.5m wide is the maximum width for a road vehicle not requiring an escort). However drivers of those vehicles are highly skilled at driving them with a few inches' gap at each side, I'm going to venture the opinion that you're not. (I'm not either to be fair!)

There were no spaces at all to park and the idea that one could reasonably allocate parking spaces is a joke. Larger SUVs make matters worse.

Most SUVs are shorter than estate cars. Modern car width is due primarily to side impact protection.

It isn't a joke at all. You would have to reduce the number of vehicles allowed and crank the price right up, and have either a lottery or first-come-first-served for one space only per household.

 

[trebor79]

So I stayed at a friends flat in Earlsfield earlier this week. Figured I'd need to visit a Supercharger on my way home the next day but was delighted to discover than there were several lampposts with EV charging sockets built into them.
Oh, yet another app to download I thought. Not so, scan a QR code, pay with Google wallet, charge started without any registration nonsense other than an email address for them to send the receipt to.
Only 4kW charge rate, but absolutely fine for charging overnight, the intended purpose. There were plenty of free sockets around too, allocated spaces not necessary.

 

[AM9]

And this is one of the many reasons we need fewer (note not none, just not as many as we're have) cars.

As I've said elsewhere:

There seems to be some sort of self entitlement to be able to park whenever and wherever. Whilst it is a right to own a private car, and with suitable licencing, drive it on the public highway, there is no absolute right to parking it anywhere on the public highway. A common problem is families living in a house with something less than 6m frontage width where both parents have cars, and the the late teenage/20 somethings make a car each part of their lifestyle choices. Even if EVs weren't going to be the norm in the future, this expectation of having personal road transport conveniently close to home where there clearly isn't the road space needs to be managed.

 

[bspahh]

Most SUVs are shorter than estate cars.

SUVs are shorter, but have a bigger turning circle, which makes them feel like they are bigger than they really are, if you are waiting for someone in an SUV to park.

A Ford Kuga is based on the same floorpan of the Focus. The specifications at Carwow give the length of a Focus estate as 4693mm compared to 4629mm for the Kuga. However, the Focus has smaller wheels which means that the turning circle is 10.5m compared to 11.7m for the Kuga.

Ford Kuga | Specifications & Dimensions

A complete overview of the Ford Kuga specs and dimensions. Find out about its size, boot space, equipment, and more.

www.carwow.co.uk

Ford Focus Estate | Specifications & Dimensions

A complete overview of the Ford Focus Estate specs and dimensions. Find out about its size, boot space, equipment, and more.

www.carwow.co.uk

 

[MP33]

On another forum, there was an appeal for volunteers to help get a place ready for visitors in a few months time. There was a response from someone to say. I would wish to help but I live too far away for my EV and as it was confirmed due to expense no chargers are being installed and it is not my turn to use the one charger nearby. I must decline as I may get there, but would be unable to leave.

I quoted something I read about difficulties with modifications of a non metal car, such as a Lotus or Reliant. I repeated the advice that was given to buy a proper car.

My post was deleted. It may touched a nerve in some quarters.

 

[trebor79]

On another forum, there was an appeal for volunteers to help get a place ready for visitors in a few months time. There was a response from someone to say. I would wish to help but I live too far away for my EV and as it was confirmed due to expense no chargers are being installed and it is not my turn to use the one charger nearby. I must decline as I may get there, but would be unable to leave.

What on earth were they wibbling on about "not my turn to use the charger?".
Sounds like someone wanted an excuse not to help out.

 

[Energy]

What on earth were they wibbling on about "not my turn to use the charger?".
Sounds like someone wanted an excuse not to help out.

And what was the range to have only 1 charger within distance?

 

[jon0844]

My post was deleted. It may touched a nerve in some quarters.

I have no idea what forum you're talking about, but surely telling someone who is presumably into a certain type of car to 'buy a proper car' seems unnecessarily rude?

And what does this have to do with the discussion on whether switching to EVs is realistic?

Meanwhile, the Dacia Spring is now down to around €12500 in Germany, which I believe might actually make it one of the cheapest cars you can buy - and cheaper than a small petrol car.

It seems that the car industry is starting to get quite competitive and there's a race to release more EVs for under €20k.

This will of course hit second hand values now the pricing is shifting downwards, but that's all good news. A 2 or 3 year old Spring might then be nearer €7000-8000. If this happens, soon nobody will be able to say they can't afford one.

(the Spring comes with a warranty that means if the battery health falls to below 75% within 8 years they'll replace it or the whole car for free).

 

[Mawkie]

Meanwhile, the Dacia Spring is now down to around €12500 in Germany, which I believe might actually make it one of the cheapest cars you can buy

Of course, this being the UK, Dacia have confirmed...

The UK will launch an all-new version, enhanced by several significant improvements in design and equipment

Which sounds a bit like an "all new price" will accompany its arrival. I'm sure Dacia will maintain its reputation as a lower cost provider of vehicles; it will interesting to see what price they attach.

 

[Class 317]

Just thought I'd post an update on EV numbers from ZAP Map.

Straight BEV numbers are now over the 1 million mark with over 600k PHEV's now on the road. Bev's are now over 3% of cars on the road.

Sorry about lack of Quotes and link. I'm still struggling with broken fingers so unable to copy them across at moment .

 

[bspahh]

Just thought I'd post an update on EV numbers from ZAP Map.

Straight BEV numbers are now over the 1 million mark with over 600k PHEV's now on the road. Bev's are now over 3% of cars on the road.

Sorry about lack of Quotes and link. I'm still struggling with broken fingers so unable to copy them across at moment .

https://www.zap-map.com/ev-stats/ev-market says:

With increasing consumer demand and the greater availability of electric models, the number of electric cars in the UK is growing at a rapid rate. As of the end of February 2024, there are now over 1,000,000 fully electric cars on UK roads and a further 620,000 plug-in hybrids.

On this electric vehicle (EV) market stats page, Zapmap tracks the cumulative number of electric vehicles on UK roads, the growth in electric vehicle sales, and the proportion of new car sales that have a plug – either battery-electric vehicles or plug-in hybrids. The number of electric vans being sold each month are also tracked ...