Do you think that the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic?

[NoRoute]

I don’t entirely disagree and for the 40% of the population who don’t have access to home charging it is certainly an option as we go through this transition. However, as has been pointed out many times before that type of car is more expensive to develop for manufacturers (will be passed on to customers), more expensive to maintain as it involves servicing an ICE, and less efficient (80% of time in your case) as you are paying to haul around an ICE and exhaust system which isn’t doing anything. Are there any new cars left on the market that have range extender ICE generators?

The 'hauling around an ICE' argument against hybrids is counterbalanced by the alternative being a BEV with a considerably larger and heavier battery than it necessary for the average journey. The actual comparison is less clear cut:

PHEV: 15kWh battery + ICE vs. BEV: 60 to 80kWh battery.

The question is how does carrying around an ICE and its associated systems compare to carrying an extra 45+ kWh of battery.

Besides it's something of a distraction to the more important question of why people are now buying much bigger and heavier vehicles than they did in the past, arguably grossly over-sized for their actual purpose. Does someone really need a huge 2+ tonne 4x4 or SUV for driving down the dual-carriageway to the local shopping centre, of dropping the kids off at school?

 

[Noddy]

The 'hauling around an ICE' argument against hybrids is counterbalanced by the alternative being a BEV with a considerably larger and heavier battery than it necessary for the average journey. The actual comparison is less clear cut:

PHEV: 15kWh battery + ICE vs. BEV: 60 to 80kWh battery.

The question is how does carrying around an ICE and its associated systems compare to carrying an extra 45+ kWh of battery.

Besides it's something of a distraction to the more important question of why people are now buying much bigger and heavier vehicles than they did in the past, arguably grossly over-sized for their actual purpose. Does someone really need a huge 2+ tonne 4x4 or SUV for driving down the dual-carriageway to the local shopping centre, of dropping the kids off at school?

I’m not really talking about most plugin hybrids, which are directly powered by the ICE. With these types of PHEV the opposite is true-you’re hauling around a fairly heavy battery which most of the time isn’t doing anything more than a mild hybrid would do with a lot less weight. I was specifically talking about EVs with ICE range extenders such as some models of the i3.

@GLC would probably be able to confirm but I believe the range extender roughly doubles the range of the i3 from 80 to 150 miles. But interestingly when the battery capacity of the i3 was almost doubled from 22kWh to 42kWh in 2019 the weight of the vehicle only increased by 80kg. Obviously some of this will be due to technological advances in batteries between 2013-2019. But a lot will be to do with just removing everything to do with the ICE.

The latter situation I was commiserating a BMW iX driver, on Christmas Eve at 6pm at Tebay services last year. There are 6(+?) Tesla chargers, but only 2 non Tesla chargers, and each of those chargers can only charge one car at a time, despite having 2 CCS plugs each. After a few attempts at charging, whilst on the phone, I simply gave up, bought 8L of petrol and carried on. The iX driver was stuck there with his family on the car as they didn’t have the range to go much further.

More reliable chargers, more chargers, more chargers that can charge simultaneously, longer range BEVs, faster charging rates, all of these would solve/mitigate the above, but we don’t have enough of that today and I can personally attest to that.

The moral, unfortunately, of that story is don’t stop at Tebay when it’s busy. Same as Gloucester Services. I’m not really sure what’s going on the Westmorland Service Group stations-they seem very behind the times, which is odd as I expect there is a fairly strong correlation between EV drivers and their clientele!

 

[trebor79]

All this talk of the i3. It's a legacy vehicle no longer in production and largely irrelevant to the ongoing transition to EVs. In some ways it has shown what not to do.
Don't invest in expensive carbon fibre as actually the benefit of the weight saving is near zero (you get the kinetic energy back in regenerative braking).
Special skinny tyres help with range a little but cost a fortune and give terrible ride.
You might as well fit a bigger battery than a range extender ICE.

 

[jon0844]

Like many things, the car was flawed in many ways (although they are now second hand bargains and sell pretty quickly) but trying out things and seeing what works is vitally important - and it also helps when traditional car makers show their support for EVs, as it tells a lot of people (who might have seen things as Tesla vs the car world) that - hey - even a BMW customer can buy electric.

It's a shame BMW has now moved on to making big, oversized, SUV EVs but at least they tried - and with more cheap EVs coming (e-C3, Dolphin, possibly an MG3 EV one day etc) BMW may well decide to launch something new with the same look and feel of the original.

When the car first launched, I thought the range extender was quite a clever idea. Sure, it's using fossil fuel so the car is hardly zero emissions anymore - but even most EV owners aren't cutting ALL fossil fuel usage from their lives. It's laughable when the anti-EV brigade go on about EVs not being green because they may use fossil fuel power stations to charge the batteries, as if the solution is to use 100% fossil fuel in your car instead. Every little helps.

The real problem was the higher cost, extra maintenance and point of failure etc. For some people, especially those who leased or had the car only for a few years, that wasn't an issue at all.. even the high price isn't an issue for everyone.

 

[The Ham]

Like many things, the car was flawed in many ways (although they are now second hand bargains and sell pretty quickly) but trying out things and seeing what works is vitally important - and it also helps when traditional car makers show their support for EVs, as it tells a lot of people (who might have seen things as Tesla vs the car world) that - hey - even a BMW customer can buy electric.

It's a shame BMW has now moved on to making big, oversized, SUV EVs but at least they tried - and with more cheap EVs coming (e-C3, Dolphin, possibly an MG3 EV one day etc) BMW may well decide to launch something new with the same look and feel of the original.

When the car first launched, I thought the range extender was quite a clever idea. Sure, it's using fossil fuel so the car is hardly zero emissions anymore - but even most EV owners aren't cutting ALL fossil fuel usage from their lives. It's laughable when the anti-EV brigade go on about EVs not being green because they may use fossil fuel power stations to charge the batteries, as if the solution is to use 100% fossil fuel in your car instead. Every little helps.

The real problem was the higher cost, extra maintenance and point of failure etc. For some people, especially those who leased or had the car only for a few years, that wasn't an issue at all.. even the high price isn't an issue for everyone.

Probably the most useful aspect of doing it, was doing it so as to shut up anyone who would then suggest doing it because it hasn't been done.

For example those opposed to EV's (if it hasn't been done) would have been calling for cars which did it, as it has been done it's not an argument they can make as easily - in that they have to justify a new version but with important differences to the i3 to show why the car would work better.

 

[Bantamzen]

I don't see the point of everyone getting hybrids as an interim. Quicker, cheaper and better for the environment to roll out chargers and go full BEV.
Both of our cars are EVs and we've had no issues at all with charging.

Perhaps because EVs are still more expensive to buy, and with a lot fewer opportunities to charge them in their local area? Just because you have no issues doesn't make it so for the entire population.

 

[apk55]

One aspect that I have not seen mentioned here is the emergency services who will probably require at least a hybrid vehicle. This would also apply to people living in remoter parts of the country also some maintenance vehicles.
We can guarantee that there will be weather events that will disrupt the power grid by snow rain or wind and parts may lose power for days. In this case the emergency services will be working extra hard to get things going again in an area where there is no working charging ports.
Also for example police might suddenly be required to assist a neighboring force and suddenly face a long drive.
While for 99% of the time battery operation will be suitable it is those situations where having some self contained charging facility such as a range extender. Some might even be configured to have inverter powered by the battery and become a mobile power pack.

 

[NoRoute]

I’m not really talking about most plugin hybrids, which are directly powered by the ICE. With these types of PHEV the opposite is true-you’re hauling around a fairly heavy battery which most of the time isn’t doing anything more than a mild hybrid would do with a lot less weight. I was specifically talking about EVs with ICE range extenders such as some models of the i3.

Why do you think PHEVs don't use their batteries? Most PHEVs operate in EV mode by default, using the battery and then dropping into hybrid mode once the EV portion of the battery is empty. They're a combination of a short range BEV and a hybrid, their small capacity battery is used more intensively than an BEV because it is cycled more frequently.

 

[Noddy]

Why do you think PHEVs don't use their batteries? Most PHEVs operate in EV mode by default, using the battery and then dropping into hybrid mode once the EV portion of the battery is empty. They're a combination of a short range BEV and a hybrid, their small capacity battery is used more intensively than an BEV because it is cycled more frequently.

I don’t doubt they use their batteries. But of the three people I know (all colleagues) who have PHEVs only one has ever charged it, (and that was from a three pin to see how it worked). In these cases they might as well just have a decent mild hybrid and save the weight of hauling around a fairly large battery. These colleagues may not be a fully representative sample but I would very surprised if the majority of private PHEVs (fleets may be slightly different if for example they have work charging) are regularly (ever?) plugged in.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don’t doubt they use their batteries. But of the three people I know (all colleagues) who have PHEVs only one has ever charged it, (and that was from a three pin to see how it worked). In these cases they might as well just have a decent mild hybrid and save the weight of hauling around a fairly large battery. These colleagues may not be a fully representative sample but I would very surprised if the majority of private PHEVs (fleets may be slightly different if for example they have work charging) are regularly (ever?) plugged in.

Every one I know with a PHEV plugs them in. One of them was very proud of the fact that he didn’t put petrol in it for a whole year! Covid helped there, somewhat. But he’s now gone full EV with an XC40, and getting 300 miles plus out of it.

 

[bspahh]

Every one I know with a PHEV plugs them in. One of them was very proud of the fact that he didn’t put petrol in it for a whole year! Covid helped there, somewhat. But he’s now gone full EV with an XC40, and getting 300 miles plus out of it.

If you give someone a hybrid so they can pay less tax, and a fuel card that will pay for all their fuel, they don't have a financial incentive to plug the car into a charger.

 

[Energy]

If you give someone a hybrid so they can pay less tax, and a fuel card that will pay for all their fuel, they don't have a financial incentive to plug the car into a charger.

I know someone down the road with a PHEV and they generally have it plugged in.

Its an issue over in Germany that the PHEV incentives are very good, which has led to a load of PHEVs lots of which aren't plugged in as the driver has a company fuel card.

 

[Roast Veg]

Its an issue over in Germany that the PHEV incentives are very good, which has led to a load of PHEVs lots of which aren't plugged in as the driver has a company fuel card.

A similar issue with low emission zones and taxis with broken batteries only running on petrol.

 

[The Ham]

One aspect that I have not seen mentioned here is the emergency services who will probably require at least a hybrid vehicle. This would also apply to people living in remoter parts of the country also some maintenance vehicles.

All the could be if concern, but probably not too the extent that many fear and in the case of rural, unless they are so rural that they don't have a grid supply arguably they'll be better off as they wouldn't have to drive (say) ten miles to the nearest petrol station to fill up.

We can guarantee that there will be weather events that will disrupt the power grid by snow rain or wind and parts may lose power for days.

Indeed, however for most areas this would be fairly short lived.

In this case the emergency services will be working extra hard to get things going again in an area where there is no working charging ports.

It's not uncommon for a local generator to be set up in an area of there's a significant issue, most areas can get one fairly quickly.

Also for example police might suddenly be required to assist a neighboring force and suddenly face a long drive.

Rarely would they need to travel more than 100 miles each way to do so, unless you need a specific unit chances are everyone gets stretched a bit further from their normal area. There's examples of riot police which buck this trend, however they are likely to be deployed over a long enough period which would allow their vehicles to charge (including potentially overnight if from far enough away).

While for 99% of the time battery operation will be suitable it is those situations where having some self contained charging facility such as a range extender. Some might even be configured to have inverter powered by the battery and become a mobile power pack.

Again we're into the examples, and even then the above shows that they probably wouldn't be as significant as the initial fears could intimate.

 

[NoRoute]

I don’t doubt they use their batteries. But of the three people I know (all colleagues) who have PHEVs only one has ever charged it, (and that was from a three pin to see how it worked). In these cases they might as well just have a decent mild hybrid and save the weight of hauling around a fairly large battery. These colleagues may not be a fully representative sample but I would very surprised if the majority of private PHEVs (fleets may be slightly different if for example they have work charging) are regularly (ever?) plugged in.

PHEVs cost more to purchase, new and used, so someone buying a PHEV privately is spending extra money to get that plug-in capability, why would they do this and then not use it? They may as well just buy a non-plug-in hybrid or a regular car.

For company car or salary sacrifice drivers the lower benefit in kind tax distorts things.

 

[DelW]

I don’t doubt they use their batteries. But of the three people I know (all colleagues) who have PHEVs only one has ever charged it, (and that was from a three pin to see how it worked). In these cases they might as well just have a decent mild hybrid and save the weight of hauling around a fairly large battery. These colleagues may not be a fully representative sample but I would very surprised if the majority of private PHEVs (fleets may be slightly different if for example they have work charging) are regularly (ever?) plugged in.

Obviously anecdotal, but mine is plugged in two or three times a week depending on my usage. It enables me completely to avoid cold-engine running on local trips, and if I'm not making any long-distance trips I can run purely on electricity for several weeks (typically a couple of hundred miles). The ICE engine is only used on long-distance trips, when it's running fully warmed-up and at its best efficiency.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Obviously anecdotal, but mine is plugged in two or three times a week depending on my usage. It enables me completely to avoid cold-engine running on local trips, and if I'm not making any long-distance trips I can run purely on electricity for several weeks (typically a couple of hundred miles). The ICE engine is only used on long-distance trips, when it's running fully warmed-up and at its best efficiency.

Are you able to let the engine idle in your car while you drive off the battery alone?

 

[DelW]

Are you able to let the engine idle in your car while you drive off the battery alone?

The petrol engine isn't running at all when driving on the battery. If I do a short journey (within the 30-ish mile maximum range) the petrol engine isn't started or used at any stage.

 

[gabrielhj07]

The petrol engine isn't running at all when driving on the battery. If I do a short journey (within the 30-ish mile maximum range) the petrol engine isn't started or used at any stage.

Ah right, I misunderstood you when you said you could avoid cold running.

 

[Noddy]

Every one I know with a PHEV plugs them in. One of them was very proud of the fact that he didn’t put petrol in it for a whole year! Covid helped there, somewhat. But he’s now gone full EV with an XC40, and getting 300 miles plus out of it.

PHEVs cost more to purchase, new and used, so someone buying a PHEV privately is spending extra money to get that plug-in capability, why would they do this and then not use it? They may as well just buy a non-plug-in hybrid or a regular car.

For company car or salary sacrifice drivers the lower benefit in kind tax distorts things.

My colleagues have them as company cars-fuel payments are all mileage based so in effect they are ‘private’ rather than ‘fleet’ cars in terms of use (no work charging/fuel card etc). As you say it’s to do with tax (not the environment) as to why they choose them (as I’m sure is true with most PHEVs).

 

[DelW]

My colleagues have them as company cars-fuel payments are all mileage based so in effect they are ‘private’ rather than ‘fleet’ cars in terms of use (no work charging/fuel card etc). As you say it’s to do with tax (not the environment) as to why they choose them (as I’m sure is true with most PHEVs).

There are no tax benefits for privately-bought PHEVs, so that (in bold) could only apply to company-supplied cars.

I've no idea what proportion of PHEVs are in each category though.

 

[Noddy]

There are no tax benefits for privately-bought PHEVs, so that (in bold) could only apply to company-supplied cars.

I've no idea what proportion of PHEVs are in each category though.

Yeah bit difficult to know but according to some data I’ve found in the financial year 2020/21 74 thousand PHEVs were registered as company cars. In the calendar year 2020 67 thousand PHEVs were registered on the road and in the calendar year 2021 it was 114 thousand. So I would suggest well over half and probably the vast majority of new PHEVs are company cars(?) And unfortunately I strongly suspect that like in my company the vast vast majority of these are never plugged in so spend at least the first 3 or 4 years of their lives hauling around a big battery for very little gain.

Sources:

HMRC data shows 1,300% increase in uptake of electric company cars

Figures also show proportion of petrol company cars has increased year-on-year.

www.fleetnews.co.uk

Covid stalls 2021 UK new car market but record EV sales show future direction

1.65m new cars registered in 2021 – up just 1.0% on pandemic-ravaged 2020 and -28.7% below pre-Covid levels as myriad challenges subdue market. Plug-in vehicles account for record more than one in six registrations, while battery electric cars alone rise to one-in-nine, with more registered than...

www.smmt.co.uk

 

[DelW]

Yeah bit difficult to know but according to some data I’ve found in the financial year 2020/21 74 thousand PHEVs were registered as company cars. In the calendar year 2020 67 thousand PHEVs were registered on the road and in the calendar year 2021 it was 114 thousand. So I would suggest well over half and probably the vast majority of new PHEVs are company cars(?) And unfortunately I strongly suspect that like in my company the vast vast majority of these are never plugged in so spend at least the first 3 or 4 years of their lives hauling around a big battery for very little gain.

It is indeed sad and wasteful if a large proportion of these cars are really being used just to cut the tax liability of drivers who simply use them as petrol cars.

Used appropriately, they can be a useful compromise. Mine gives me (effectively) a full electric vehicle for all my local use around home, while also providing a petrol car for my regular long distance trips to rural Wales. None of my regular destinations have any way of charging - not even a 13amp point other than by using using an impractically long extension lead. I *could* charge on the way there and back, but my preferred lunch stop doesn't have chargers and I really don't want to move from there to a McDonald's or similar on a soulless motorway service area.

I also find the electric drive much pleasanter to use in heavy traffic. It's silent when stopped, I'm not wasting fuel, and the pick-up is instantaneous and smooth. I really can't imagine why I would use the engine for that sort of driving - unlike for main road cruising, where it's fine.

 

[jon0844]

Wasn't there a big problem (almost a scam if you will) where a lot of taxi drivers were buying cheap Prius' with non-working/faulty batteries and using them on petrol exclusively? I can't quite remember the fuss at the time, but assume there was some financial benefit of using a hybrid even if you didn't actually use the battery.

 

[Bald Rick]

Wasn't there a big problem (almost a scam if you will) where a lot of taxi drivers were buying cheap Prius' with non-working/faulty batteries and using them on petrol exclusively? I can't quite remember the fuss at the time, but assume there was some financial benefit of using a hybrid even if you didn't actually use the battery.

Werent they excluded from the congestion charge in London?

 

[jon0844]

That might be it. There was definitely something.

 

[talldave]

‘Just the day I happened to revisit the thread’ - yeah right!

Your point appears to be to abandon the renewable targets (eg 50GW of off shore wind) and do nothing other than continue to burn gas? Or am I wrong? Because that doesn’t seem like any sort of plan or strategy at all, and looks like a typical example of burying your head in the sand. Not to mention more expensive for consumers-check the average balancing price of electricity for Monday when there was a moderate amount of renewables, compared to Saturday when there was very little…

My point has nothing to do with targets or the uselessness of wind on certain days. What irritates me is the ignorance of some EV owners who seem totally oblivious to the fact that they're still using any fossil fuels in addition to the environmental damage manufacturing the thing in the first place caused.

For sure if your car is clapped out, consider an EV because the differences between new ICE or new EV are small. But being forced to scrap my cars that do a couple of thousand miles a year and could have 10 years life in them is environmental madness.

 

[trebor79]

My point has nothing to do with targets or the uselessness of wind on certain days. What irritates me is the ignorance of some EV owners who seem totally oblivious to the fact that they're still using any fossil fuels in addition to the environmental damage manufacturing the thing in the first place caused.

Even if the grid was 100% fossil fuel, the EV does the equivalent of about 180mpg, so it still wipes the floor with ICE emissions.

 

[Bald Rick]

But being forced to scrap my cars that do a couple of thousand miles a year and could have 10 years life in them is environmental madness.

Who is forcing you to scrap them?

 

[Noddy]

My point has nothing to do with targets or the uselessness of wind on certain days. What irritates me is the ignorance of some EV owners who seem totally oblivious to the fact that they're still using any fossil fuels in addition to the environmental damage manufacturing the thing in the first place caused.

For sure if your car is clapped out, consider an EV because the differences between new ICE or new EV are small. But being forced to scrap my cars that do a couple of thousand miles a year and could have 10 years life in them is environmental madness.

For someone apparently so concerned with the environmental cost of cars it’s very odd that you stated this previously:

When I'm financially able, I'll be replacing my diesel with a petrol V8 for some fun whilst such things are ULEZ compliant.