TFW Liverpool-Cardiff

[Krokodil]

Is it worse in the summer? I was always led to believe it was holidaymakers who were both unused to railway crossings & more relaxed as on holiday aling with excited children.

It's certainly worse in the summer (sheer numbers being a factor too). Suicides however tend to be people who live locally and can occur at any time of the year. There are some locals who brazenly ignore the lights too.

 

[Deafdoggie]

It's certainly worse in the summer (sheer numbers being a factor too). Suicides however tend to be people who live locally and can occur at any time of the year. There are some locals who brazenly ignore the lights too.

I suppose familiarity is also a factor. It's a difficult one, too long with the lights saying don't cross and people will risk it. Too short and people can't make it safely across.

 

[Caaardiff]

In theory the Liverpool Cardiff services should fit in the currently unused path in the hours the Holyhead - Cardiff doesn't run.

How will that fit in at the Shrewsbury - Chester section? Currently the 2 hourly Cardiff - Holyhead works opposite to the 2 hourly Birmingham - Holyhead from Shrewsbury. The Cardiff - Liverpool would therefore clash with the Birmingham Holyhead.

 

[dk1]

What I don't understand is why Network Rail are refusing to let TfW reinstate the pre-pandemic half-hourly frequency between Llandudno Junction and Llandudno on the basis of crossing risk at Deganwy. Surely Grandfather Rights can extend as far as 2019. It's a half-hourly frequency on weekends.

You would think so. How odd.

 

[craigybagel]

How will that fit in at the Shrewsbury - Chester section? Currently the 2 hourly Cardiff - Holyhead works opposite to the 2 hourly Birmingham - Holyhead from Shrewsbury. The Cardiff - Liverpool would therefore clash with the Birmingham Holyhead.

That is a very good question that as far as I know has never been properly answered. I did mean more that there's space for 2tph between Shrewsbury and Cardiff, but how they fit north of Shrewsbury without a recast on the Marches (which is itself complicated by the need to fit Manchester services over the flat crossing of the WCML at Crewe) has never been explained since the winning bid was revealed.

 

[Krokodil]

That is a very good question that as far as I know has never been properly answered. I did mean more that there's space for 2tph between Shrewsbury and Cardiff, but how they fit north of Shrewsbury without a recast on the Marches (which is itself complicated by the need to fit Manchester services over the flat crossing of the WCML at Crewe) has never been explained since the winning bid was revealed.

The southbound Birmingham trains do run about ten minutes behind the Cardiffs (and at least one of them does currently do so in the same hour) so it should be possible to run a Liverpool to Cardiff ahead of the Birmingham between Chester and Shrewsbury. I'm sure that a plan can be worked out for the northbound services. Seems silly to have trains follow so closely though rather than providing the half-hourly service that it really needs. Unavoidable with the intended services unfortunately.

 

[craigybagel]

The southbound Birmingham trains do run about ten minutes behind the Cardiffs (and at least one of them does currently do so in the same hour) so it should be possible to run a Liverpool to Cardiff ahead of the Birmingham between Chester and Shrewsbury. I'm sure that a plan can be worked out for the northbound services. Seems silly to have trains follow so closely though rather than providing the half-hourly service that it really needs. Unavoidable with the intended services unfortunately.

I don't think a 10 minute headway would work though - not without adding an IB between Croes Newydd and Gobowen North. I suspect you'd run into issues on the single track north of Rossett as well.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

You would think so. How odd.

There isn't any crossing between Llandudno and the Junction that aren't fully barriered and CCTV monitored or below the signal box so there isn't any risk as far as I can see??

 

[frodshamfella]

You can say what you like when bidding for a franchise "we will run a train every 30 seconds on the Heart of Wales Line" then win the bid & quietly drop it as Network Rail said no.
Obviously I'm using exaggerated examples, but you get the idea.

I've contacted the LCR mayor about it, as I believe the funding for the Halton curve project was if not wholly, the greater proportion was funded by the city region. It can't be right that the then awarded franchise, just doesn't do what was projected.

 

[Krokodil]

There isn't any crossing between Llandudno and the Junction that aren't fully barriered and CCTV monitored or below the signal box so there isn't any risk as far as I can see??

Well quite. Controlled crossings are surely the safest sort. It's not like a half-hourly service (the extra trains using exactly the same unit so evenly spaced) is going to keep the barriers down for long periods of time. That said there is a footpath crossing between Deganwy and Junction that Network Rail closed some years back on safety grounds (the local MP has been campaigning against the decision). Maybe that's the reason. Odd to make it based on a locked crossing though.

The number of farm crossings on the Mid-Cheshire Line has been cited as the reason that a half-hourly service hasn't been implemented on that route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2023 ==

I don't think a 10 minute headway would work though - not without adding an IB between Croes Newydd and Gobowen North. I suspect you'd run into issues on the single track north of Rossett as well.

Yeah, I've just checked and 1V96/1I18 run slightly out of pattern to fit, 22m separation. That said, if one train skipped Ruabon/Chirk it would gain you a few minutes.

If the service only runs as a token one each way, there is a path from Chester at 14:30ish.

I'd still rather avoid tail-chasing so would personally scrap the Cardiff-Liverpools and provide an equally-spaced half-hourly service on each section.

To avoid cluttering this thread up further I put more detail on this one:

FANTASY: redesign your own TOC's timetable

This has perhaps come up before but some time ago. Anyway, the idea is to take your local TOC's timetable, or part of it, and completely redesign it. Rewinding the clock to previous eras is permitted, and exact times are not necessary (though you can include them if you wish). You are not bound...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[cle]

Could the Birmingham service be swapped or moved to another path out of Birmingham? What operates in the off hour when it doesn't - the Aber?

 

[craigybagel]

Could the Birmingham service be swapped or moved to another path out of Birmingham? What operates in the off hour when it doesn't - the Aber?

Correct, it alternates between Holyhead and Cambrian through the day. It would probably be very difficult to alter the paths through Birmingham as they're pretty much fixed by capacity constraints between Wolverhampton and Birmingham International, and the need to fit around the single track on the Cambrian line.

 

[Llandudno]

Well quite. Controlled crossings are surely the safest sort. It's not like a half-hourly service (the extra trains using exactly the same unit so evenly spaced) is going to keep the barriers down for long periods of time. That said there is a footpath crossing between Deganwy and Junction that Network Rail closed some years back on safety grounds (the local MP has been campaigning against the decision). Maybe that's the reason. Odd to make it based on a locked crossing though.

The number of farm crossings on the Mid-Cheshire Line has been cited as the reason that a half-hourly service hasn't been implemented on that route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2023 ==


Yeah, I've just checked and 1V96/1I18 run slightly out of pattern to fit, 22m separation. That said, if one train skipped Ruabon/Chirk it would gain you a few minutes.

If the service only runs as a token one each way, there is a path from Chester at 14:30ish.

I'd still rather avoid tail-chasing so would personally scrap the Cardiff-Liverpools and provide an equally-spaced half-hourly service on each section.

To avoid cluttering this thread up further I put more detail on this one:

FANTASY: redesign your own TOC's timetable

This has perhaps come up before but some time ago. Anyway, the idea is to take your local TOC's timetable, or part of it, and completely redesign it. Rewinding the clock to previous eras is permitted, and exact times are not necessary (though you can include them if you wish). You are not bound...

www.railforums.co.uk

Indeed the crossing opposite the chip shop between Deganwy and Llandudno Junction must have been closed about 10 years ago, seems little point in reopening it now.

There is no housing or businesses on the Conwy estuary side of the railway, so apart from some walkers wanting to access the coastal path a bit pointless. There are other access points to the coastal path 10 minutes walk away at most in each direction

 

[cle]

TfW rail service update

Transport for Wales will now increase train service frequency on its Liverpool - Chester route (via Liverpool Airport), and on the Ebbw Vale branch, in January 2024.

news.tfw.wales

Transport for Wales will now increase train service frequency on its Liverpool - Chester route (via Liverpool Airport), and on the Ebbw Vale branch, in January 2024.

This represents a slight delay on the original plan to make the changes from next week (10 December 2023).

A spokesperson for Transport for Wales said: “We have a comprehensive programme in place for repairing the damaged wheels on the trains affected, which will take most of December to complete. This will cause a few weeks of delay to delivering the frequency enhancements planned as part of the December 2023 new timetable.

Liverpool-Chester - is this just getting back to hourly?

 

[FrodshamJnct]

TfW rail service update

Transport for Wales will now increase train service frequency on its Liverpool - Chester route (via Liverpool Airport), and on the Ebbw Vale branch, in January 2024.

news.tfw.wales

Liverpool-Chester - is this just getting back to hourly?

Yes, was planned to be as of December timetable change but now pushed back to January, it’s not been hourly since pre-Covid.

 

[Llandudno]

Yes, was planned to be as of December timetable change but now pushed back to January, it’s not been hourly since pre-Covid.

Doubt it will happen before June!

The incompetence continues….

 

[James90012]

The southbound Birmingham trains do run about ten minutes behind the Cardiffs (and at least one of them does currently do so in the same hour) so it should be possible to run a Liverpool to Cardiff ahead of the Birmingham between Chester and Shrewsbury. I'm sure that a plan can be worked out for the northbound services. Seems silly to have trains follow so closely though rather than providing the half-hourly service that it really needs. Unavoidable with the intended services unfortunately.

I thought it was part of a recast - to put calls in the Liverpool-Cardiffs and speed up the Manchester route - but agree I've not seen an actual timetable for it!

 

[markymark2000]

The incompetence continues….

It's not incompetence, it's just a new way of working, it's the TFW way of doing things.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It's not incompetence, it's just a new way of working, it's the TFW way of doing things.

And the TfW way of doing things is almost always incompetent…

 

[frodshamfella]

I thought it was part of a recast - to put calls in the Liverpool-Cardiffs and speed up the Manchester route - but agree I've not seen an actual timetable for it!

What about Liverpool- Llandudno ? Both Cardiff and Llandudno are mega slow in coming to realisation.

 

[Krokodil]

What about Liverpool- Llandudno ? Both Cardiff and Llandudno are mega slow in coming to realisation.

Network Rail blocked it citeing the foot crossings near Abergele.

 

[BrianW]

Network Rail blocked it citeing the foot crossings near Abergele.

Can you give a link to the citation? Thanks.

 

[frodshamfella]

Network Rail blocked it citeing the foot crossings near Abergele.

Thats so ridiculous.

 

[6Gman]

I'm just not agreeing, sorry... in times of disruption say, when all trains have been brought to a stop, and they finally get running again, to resume usual service, I'm sure many more than the usual may pass per hour in one direction trying to get service restored. Do they think of the level crossings then?

Also on the North Wales coast as we are speaking about, it is almost all long, straight, clear sighted for a good distance, an extra train an hour is not like crossing a road as pedestrian's often do with cars turning corners, driving at different speeds and often one car after another after another with minimal distance between and everyone manages. It just just doesn't add up. You can see and hear, on these long stretches, and extra train an hour really doesn't make any difference.

I believe the crossings involved have a long history of fatalities and injuries and that the caution is well justified.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I believe the crossings involved have a long history of fatalities and injuries and that the caution is well justified.

Suicide is difficult to prevent. They are not preventable accidents.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2023 ==

Network Rail blocked it citeing the foot crossings near Abergele.

I only know about bridges over Abergele and Towyn , Kinmel Bay etc, could you give locations to these crossings?

 

[Krokodil]

Suicide is difficult to prevent. They are not preventable accidents.

Some of the fatalities were accidents. I remember a messy one in 2019 that led to the installation of Miniature Warning Lights.

I only know about bridges over Abergele and Towyn , Kinmel Bay etc, could you give locations to these crossings?

There are two of them. One at Tŷ Gwyn (212m 44ch) and the other at Pen Uchaf (212m 59ch)

 

[BrianW]

Some of the fatalities were accidents. I remember a messy one in 2019 that led to the installation of Miniature Warning Lights.


There are two of them. One at Tŷ Gwyn (212m 44ch) and the other at Pen Uchaf (212m 59ch)

If they are dangerous- indeed 'killers'- they should be improved or closed. Are there reports that can be seen to justify either of those options or indeed the action of those using accidents as pretext for denying proposed and announced rail service improvements? The skeptic in me suggests convenient excuses and scapegoating rather than genuine safety concerns.

 

[Krokodil]

If they are dangerous- indeed 'killers'- they should be improved or closed. Are there reports that can be seen to justify either of those options or indeed the action of those using accidents as pretext for denying proposed and announced rail service improvements? The skeptic in me suggests convenient excuses and scapegoating rather than genuine safety concerns.

Well replacing them with bridges has apparently been shelved on cost grounds. There were rumours that an attendant may be provided.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Thats so ridiculous.

There is an argument that says with long gaps between trains, people think it's safe to cross. But with more frequent trains people are more cautious.
However, here the problem is holidaymakers unfamiliar with the area & in relaxed mode

 

[6Gman]

Suicide is difficult to prevent. They are not preventable accidents.

The incidents I am aware of were not suicides.

And often included youngsters.

Personally I would have fenced the whole length years ago and restricted crossing to the designated bridges.

Running a railway through holiday camps with foot crossings is never a good idea.