• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Northern: DO NOT TRAVEL 24th & 31st December

Status
Not open for further replies.

Kite159

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
19,325
Location
West of Andover
Another own goal for the rail industry, pushing potential passengers towards the motor industry or buses.

I don't blame the staff, why volunteer to work a day when your December pay-packet will be bigger due to the back-pay and it gives a chance for another day at home, maybe celebrating on the Saturday night.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

scrapy

Established Member
Joined
15 Dec 2008
Messages
2,095
Funnily enough management were told weeks ago that this would happen and they would need to offer a credible booking on incentive which was laughed at. It was only when they realised that about 95% of the service was uncovered that they offered a paltry £100. Too little too late and here we are.
Yes it was pointed out by the RMT at least 3 weeks ago. A booking on enhancement was asked for. Senior management said there would be enough local management cover so wouldn't be offering any enhancement. (Presumably those managers would be getting enhanced rates though).

They've then realised this week that those managers didn't want to work/they were bluffing and didn't have enough managers so this Wednesday offered £100. Had such an offer been made a few weeks ago they may have got volunteers but I'm sure people have now made plans and there is no goodwill towards management.
 
Last edited:

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,824
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
When the railway was nationalised under BR Sunday was worked as o/t.

So nothings changed. Because DFT and Tory government don't want it to change.

Chickens come home to roost.

And a £100 booked on fee for Xmas Eve. No thanks !!!!!!!

It's a whiskey for me(at home with the family)

Cheers all and a Merry Christmas to all.

One thing has changed, which is that there seems to be a general expectation of more services on Sundays compared to times past. Gone are the days when a skeleton service, generally of longer trains, was seen to suffice.

Are people prepared to pay a premium to travel by rail on Sunday? No one ever seems to want to answer that question.

This doesn’t excuse the evident lack of planning by Northern, of course.
 
Last edited:

Topological

Member
Joined
20 Feb 2023
Messages
805
Location
Swansea
The obvious question is whether other operators are going to see similar cancellation levels.

It could be a case of Northern doing the decent thing by issuing the statement at a time when people could still choose to travel tomorrow.
 

Moonshot

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2013
Messages
3,660
So the advice is do not attempt to travel using Northern Trains on xmas eve.....as it is very likely that there will not be a train to get you to your destination. This will also apply on new years eve.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
13,314
Location
Isle of Man
It’s been like this for donkey’s years in the north west. They don’t have to work Sundays and so, in Christmas week, they don’t. This even predates Northern- it was even a thing back in FNW days.

The solution is to bring Sundays within the working week and increase headcount accordingly. But that costs money, so you can guess what DfT’s answer to that is. Especially when there are potholes in London to fill.

They should have applied it to work in these circumstances. Even RMT strike days still have a skeleton service!
The government’s idiotic minimum service requirement doesn’t apply where the problem isn’t strike action.

And the big consequence of the idiotic minimum service requirement is that there will be more working to rule. Sundays not inside the working week? That’s an employer problem not an employee problem.
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,693
Location
Northwich
Are people prepared to pay a premium to travel by rail on Sunday? No one ever seems to want to answer that question.

That's not how rail fares are structured. Based on the weekday peak/off peak system and availability of Advance fares, rail companies should be offering cheaper fares on Sundays to help combat the overcrowding problems on Saturday trains.

If you want passengers to pay a premium for using services where drivers and guards are working less sociable hours then you also need to allow for late afternoon weekday trains having the cheapest fares. Obviously that idea is unworkable in some big cities!

So the advice is do not attempt to travel using Northern Trains on xmas eve.....as it is very likely that there will not be a train to get you to your destination. This will also apply on new years eve.

Northern's role isn't just to get passengers to their destination. It's also to provide connecting services to regional and long distance services. If the likes of XC, Avanti and TfW Rail are providing services then many passengers could get to their destination - if only they could get to their nearest interchange station!

Given Network Rail scheduled engineering works months in advance and some people have already planned journeys around that, short notice cancellations are ruling out plan B for some people.

Also tickets for New Year's Eve events aren't purchased days or weeks in advance, many sold out in November. You could also buy train and coach tickets for New Year's Eve in November. So it's a bit late for operators to consider withdrawing services on any lines.
 
Last edited:

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,412
Location
Bolton
One thing has changed, which is that there seems to be a general expectation of more services on Sundays compared to times past. Gone are the days when a skeleton service, generally of longer trains, was seen to suffice.

Are people prepared to pay a premium to travel by rail on Sunday? No one ever seems to want to answer that question.

This doesn’t excuse the evident lack of planning by Northern, of course.
Plenty of operators of local trains want people to travel on Sundays instead of Saturdays because there's completely inadequate capacity on Saturdays, and nowhere else for the demand to go. This is often done through Advance tickets, but SWR deliberately make it cheaper to travel on Sunday than Saturday with the Sunday Return being valid by any train.
 

Moonshot

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2013
Messages
3,660
That's not how rail fares are structured. Based on the weekday peak/off peak system and availability of Advance fares, rail companies should be offering cheaper fares on Sundays to help combat the overcrowding problems on Saturday trains.

If you want passengers to using services where drivers and guards are working less sociable hours then you need to allow for late afternoon weekday trains having the cheapest fares. Obviously that idea is unworkable in some big cities!



Northern's role isn't just to get passengers to their destination. It's also to provide connecting services to regional and long distance services. If the likes of XC, Avanti and TfW Rail are providing services then many passengers could get to their destination - if only they could get to their nearest interchange station!

Given Network Rail scheduled engineering works months in advance and some people have already planned journeys around that, short notice cancellations are ruling out plan B for some people.

Also tickets for New Year's Eve events aren't purchased days or weeks in advance, many sold out in November. You could also buy train and coach tickets for New Year's Eve in November. So it's a bit late for operators to consider withdrawing services on any lines.
Irrelevant. Northern have announced a very much reduced service on xmas eve due to guards not wanting the overtime. Its that simple.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,412
Location
Bolton
From what I've been told, between 4 North West depots (Vic, Picc, Blackburn and I think Wigan) there are only 8 conductors who have volunteered to sign on for duty on Xmas eve.
Part of this is of course that some conductors are fit for duty for Sundays but not down as available, and then take work closer to the time if their mood is inclined to do so based on energy and other plans, and of course what work is on offer. So the availability may be a bit more than 8 - albeit not by much.

Another own goal for the rail industry, pushing potential passengers towards the motor industry or buses.

I don't blame the staff, why volunteer to work a day when your December pay-packet will be bigger due to the back-pay and it gives a chance for another day at home, maybe celebrating on the Saturday night.
Indeed. Office staff wouldn't be working on Sunday unless for something genuinely exceptional and urgent.
 

The Puddock

Member
Joined
10 Jan 2023
Messages
408
Location
Frog
One thing I've noticed in my little corner of the railway, as someone who has to arrange cover for sickness out-of-hours as an on call manager, is that staff are generally a lot more reluctant to do overtime shifts than they used to be twenty years ago. Willingness to work overtime was gradually reducing over the last ten years but has plummeted off a cliff since Covid. In 2003 you would always find someone to cover a shift at short notice but these days it's usually touch and go, as person after person either doesn't answer their phone or turns it down flat. There are still a few greedy grabbers who would cheerfully sell their own grandparents for a 12 hour Sunday but for the most part a lot of staff aren't really bothered for overtime and would rather just have their days off instead.

Years ago railwaymen in the wages grades needed to work a few rest days or Sundays to bulk up their payslip at the end of the month but as railway industry wages have increased the relative value of overtime has decreased - quite simply a lot of staff don't see the point when most of their overtime money goes to the tax man. I think that Covid made people realise that there's more to life than working. In particular, quality time with the family around christmas has a value greater than money.

The solution to this problem is to bring Sunday inside the working week. This, of course, would require increased staff numbers and a significant pay increase so it's very unlikely to happen under this government!
 

Ianigsy

Member
Joined
12 May 2015
Messages
1,119
Unsurprising but still disappointing- as somebody due to travel from Yorkshire to Merseyside tomorrow, I’m not looking forward to any knock-on effects as people shop or travel earlier.

The people most likely to be travelling on Christmas Eve will be those who don’t have the option of travelling earlier, due to work or other commitments.
 

thejuggler

Member
Joined
8 Jan 2016
Messages
1,186
One thing I've noticed in my little corner of the railway, as someone who has to arrange cover for sickness out-of-hours as an on call manager, is that staff are generally a lot more reluctant to do overtime shifts than they used to be twenty years ago. Willingness to work overtime was gradually reducing over the last ten years but has plummeted off a cliff since Covid. In 2003 you would always find someone to cover a shift at short notice but these days it's usually touch and go, as person after person either doesn't answer their phone or turns it down flat. There are still a few greedy grabbers who would cheerfully sell their own grandparents for a 12 hour Sunday but for the most part a lot of staff aren't really bothered for overtime and would rather just have their days off instead.

Years ago railwaymen in the wages grades needed to work a few rest days or Sundays to bulk up their payslip at the end of the month but as railway industry wages have increased the relative value of overtime has decreased - quite simply a lot of staff don't see the point when most of their overtime money goes to the tax man. I think that Covid made people realise that there's more to life than working. In particular, quality time with the family around christmas has a value greater than money.

The solution to this problem is to bring Sunday inside the working week. This, of course, would require increased staff numbers and a significant pay increase so it's very unlikely to happen under this government!
There is definately something in this. The income tax system is now so complicated you need to monitor earnings very carefully and ensure you don't earn over the different thresholds which can lead to eyewatering marginal tax rates. The worst spot is £50-60k when high income child benefit charge becomes payable. Add in fiscal drag and its a recipe for what we are seeing.

I remember 20-25 years ago when tax credits were introduced I was in Blackpool and there were hardly any trams. The reason was drivers realised that by doing more hours it affected their tax credits so they didn't bother turning out.
 

jayah

On Moderation
Joined
18 Apr 2011
Messages
1,893
Perhaps TOCs which have voluntary overtime on Sundays should stop running services on Sundays until and unless they are inside the working week? I think that's what I'd prefer.
I agree this would focus minds.

Given that is not a sustainable position, it underlines they just need to rewrite the contracts of employment so that a 7 day service is inside the working week and proper pensionable pay. Anyone who doesn't want to work for a 7 day a week passenger railway is welcome to seek alternative employment driving school buses instead.

It is a disgrace we have had to suffer 18 months of strike action over 'modernisation and reform' yet the government has failed to reform anything. High marginal rates of tax and significant pay rises since privatisation means a £100 gross 'signing on bonus' isn't going work either.

As per the TPE disupte zero goodwill / cooperation from employees should be the baseline assumption. Public sector staff, sheltered from the realities of the market, are free to cause as much havoc as they like and walk into their jobs the next working day, as if nothing had happened.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,255
Another own goal for the rail industry, pushing potential passengers towards the motor industry or buses.

I don't blame the staff, why volunteer to work a day when your December pay-packet will be bigger due to the back-pay and it gives a chance for another day at home, maybe celebrating on the Saturday night.

Genuine question - what would you have done in the same circumstances?

(@Kite159 - I’m not having a go, just seeing what answers there are from correspondents)
 

jayah

On Moderation
Joined
18 Apr 2011
Messages
1,893
Surely it’s time for Northern to be Nationalised…?

Oh wait!!
Completely the wrong approach - and now it shows. Either mandate the necessary hours in the contract, or force the TOC employees to put skin in the game.

Privatise the TOCs properly with the government / LA as the contractor, with penalties for not delivering on the timetable or on quality. But unlike the last 20yrs, TOCs would be modelled more like FOCs and can actually fail. No government backing for pensions. If the TOC fails, then everybody loses their shirt and their pension above the minimum state guarantee. Just like what should have happened to NatWest in 2009.

A failed TOC can be replaced but only by a new / different business, with no continuity / guarantee of employment for those in the one that failed.
 

Kite159

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
19,325
Location
West of Andover
Genuine question - what would you have done in the same circumstances?

(@Kite159 - I’m not having a go, just seeing what answers there are from correspondents)

In an ideal world, the railway shouldn't be run using overtime, but too many issues preventing that from being in place.
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,568
Location
London
Genuine question - what would you have done in the same circumstances?

(@Kite159 - I’m not having a go, just seeing what answers there are from correspondents)

Plan in advance, and offer proper incentives (which might well need to be more than £100 - maybe treble or quadruple time). That way they’d likely have a much smaller shortfall. Better still bring Sundays into the working week to prevent future occurrences.

I realise that probably wouldn't be permitted by the DfT under the current arrangements, as we know they would rather make small savings now, even if it causes the railway to become unreliable and utterly useless to passengers.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,255
In an ideal world, the railway shouldn't be run using overtime, but too many issues preventing that from being in place.

But given that we are in a world where the railway runs on overtime (and very many colleagues are keen to do overtime), what would you do?

Better still bring Sundays into the working week to prevent future occurrences

Thats a good solution. Unfortunately that is termed ‘an attack on terms and conditions’ by some.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,412
Location
Bolton
Genuine question - what would you have done in the same circumstances?

(@Kite159 - I’m not having a go, just seeing what answers there are from correspondents)
What are you getting at here? There are plenty of practical suggestions in this thread already, including arranging replacement buses and ticket acceptance with Transport for Wales.
 

185

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
5,031
Is this not what they've done? They've confirmed what resource they have avaliable, have planned a timetable accordingly and given the instruction not to travel on the basis that timetable is severely limited?

If they'd published this a week ago or longer would they not then be getting crucified for "throwing the towel in"?

Feels like no matter what they do they're going to get criticised when fundamentally the staff don't have to work overtime and Northern have very limited options to induce them to do so.
No it is not - people have made their plans around the advertised timetable. We're 48 hours from this debacle - there's no defending this shocking mismanagement, whatsoever.

May anyone who thinks this acceptable have their Christmas dinner & presents P-Coded.
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,568
Location
London
Thats a good solution. Unfortunately that is termed ‘an attack on terms and conditions’ by some.

Both unions are in favour of Sundays within the working week (as I’m sure you well know ;)), so the reason the solution isn’t available is entirely down to the government not wanting to pay for it (the unions’ objection is to committed Sundays, which means they become enforced overtime, and the worst of all worlds for employees because they cannot be taken as annual leave, are not pensionable etc.)

Easy enough to achieve by offering existing staff the choice to bring Sundays inside (for a commensurate pensionable pay rise), with those who choose not to continuing as they are, but with all new joiners having them inside by default. That was the solution agreed and implemented by my TOC and it works well.
 
Last edited:

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,143
This is absolutely correct. At my depot just 3 conductors have agreed to work ...... leaving some 90% of jobs uncovered. It also appears no one is interested in the £100 incentive
From the business world, £100 is a puny incentive more applicable to the 1970s. especially when half of it then goes in tax.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,638
Part of this is of course that some conductors are fit for duty for Sundays but not down as available, and then take work closer to the time if their mood is inclined to do so based on energy and other plans, and of course what work is on offer. So the availability may be a bit more than 8 - albeit not by much.


Indeed. Office staff wouldn't be working on Sunday unless for something genuinely exceptional and urgent.
I'd not be surprised if the availability was that low. I worked a fairly recent Sunday job to Liverpool where we use Northern's mess room. I was one of two guards there, the other was a Wigan guard covering a Liverpool job. A driver there mentioned that there was a grand total of 1 guard booking on at Lime St that day.
 

Caaardiff

Member
Joined
9 Jun 2019
Messages
874
What are you getting at here? There are plenty of practical suggestions in this thread already, including arranging replacement buses and ticket acceptance with Transport for Wales.
I wouldn't bank on TFW running a full service just yet.

From the business world, £100 is a puny incentive more applicable to the 1970s. especially when half of it then goes in tax.
Would be interesting to see how much revenue would be lost to refunds and bus replacements in comparison to at least doubling that offer.
The issue then arise than if the TOC does it once out of desperation, the union and train crew can use it as leverage for the future.
 

muz379

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2014
Messages
2,227
One thing I've noticed in my little corner of the railway, as someone who has to arrange cover for sickness out-of-hours as an on call manager, is that staff are generally a lot more reluctant to do overtime shifts than they used to be twenty years ago. Willingness to work overtime was gradually reducing over the last ten years but has plummeted off a cliff since Covid. In 2003 you would always find someone to cover a shift at short notice but these days it's usually touch and go, as person after person either doesn't answer their phone or turns it down flat. There are still a few greedy grabbers who would cheerfully sell their own grandparents for a 12 hour Sunday but for the most part a lot of staff aren't really bothered for overtime and would rather just have their days off instead.

Years ago railwaymen in the wages grades needed to work a few rest days or Sundays to bulk up their payslip at the end of the month but as railway industry wages have increased the relative value of overtime has decreased - quite simply a lot of staff don't see the point when most of their overtime money goes to the tax man. I think that Covid made people realise that there's more to life than working. In particular, quality time with the family around christmas has a value greater than money.

The solution to this problem is to bring Sunday inside the working week. This, of course, would require increased staff numbers and a significant pay increase so it's very unlikely to happen under this government!
I think covid was quite a reset for a lot of people as well , with it changing relationships with personal finances and peoples appreciation of their free time with friends and family .

And tbh even before covid , saturdays were always a struggle to get anyone to volunteer for overtime , especially in december with the sorts of behavoir you were expected to deal with from the inebriated once a year drinkers .
Given that is not a sustainable position, it underlines they just need to rewrite the contracts of employment so that a 7 day service is inside the working week and proper pensionable pay. Anyone who doesn't want to work for a 7 day a week passenger railway is welcome to seek alternative employment driving school buses instead.
If the TOC fails, then everybody loses their shirt and their pension above the minimum state guarantee
If only it were that easy to just "rewrite" contracts . In reality if you want to bring sundays inside the working week you need an uplift of staff numbers by about a third .

Your second proposal about making TOC employees susceptible to loss of livlihoods and pensions if a TOC fails would just make the industry terribly unattractive for people to work in meaning anybody with any experience and quality would just leave , there are already difficulties recruiting staff in some roles , including key ones to run an operation like planning and control .

Seems youve no idea about the actual realities of retaining quality staff in this industry .
From the business world, £100 is a puny incentive more applicable to the 1970s. especially when half of it then goes in tax.
Precisely , its almost insulting

I wonder how many managers and senior ones particularly would come in and work until 1am christmas morning for £100 extra .
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,568
Location
London
Your second proposal about making TOC employees susceptible to loss of livlihoods and pensions if a TOC fails would just make the industry terribly unattractive for people to work in meaning anybody with any experience and quality would just leave , there are already difficulties recruiting staff in some roles , including key ones to run an operation like planning and control .

And with traincrew roles, trained and competent crew don’t grow on trees, and take a very long time to train, so if one TOC goes bust the replacement will inevitably end up taking over the same staff simply because they’re the only ones who can operate the services! You’d still need an operator of last resort to keep the service running in the interim, so exactly the same as happens now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top