South Wales 'Metro' updates

[anthony263]

My point was more that the poulation of the upper Rhymney valley is comparatively small and that 4tph might be seen as excessive - particularly on valley lines that aren't getting that frequency and where 756s could run ie Ebbw Vale, Maesteg and the VOG .

I know that the plan is for 756s to be stabled at Rhymney so there are some operational reasons for keeping to the high frequency but if passenger numbers north of Bargoed prove to be low there could be a rethink.

Rhymney could end up attracting new customers with the increase in frequency plus people from say merthyr who don't want to use the class 398s

 

[positron]

Yeah also the Tredegar valley population must surely be interested if a proper bus connection is provided.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Rhymney could end up attracting new customers with the increase in frequency plus people from say merthyr who don't want to use the class 398s

I find this a lot on this forum or Facebook groups, but outside of us lot who like trains enough to come here and talk about them, generally speaking the general population don’t care too much.
Examples being, the public generally say the 197’s and 230’s are nice as they’re new and clean. They don’t get bogged down into any details such as number of toilets, what seat type is fitted or the overall window alignment in the coaches.

So I would doubt there would be many (but possibly a few) from merythr bothering to go across to rhymney just to avoid the 398s.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I find this a lot on this forum or Facebook groups, but outside of us lot who like trains enough to come here and talk about them, generally speaking the general population don’t care too much.
Examples being, the public generally say the 197’s and 230’s are nice as they’re new and clean. They don’t get bogged down into any details such as number of toilets, what seat type is fitted or the overall window alignment in the coaches.

So I would doubt there would be many (but possibly a few) from merythr bothering to go across to rhymney just to avoid the 398s.

Yes, other than a few perhaps noticing Rhymney trains have toilets, I highly doubt most locals will notice the difference between any of the new types to be honest.

 

[positron]

Tbf the one thing I will push back on is I think lots of "normies" do notice and are frustrated by seat window alignment on longer distance journeys.

But yeah I think the idea they'll go a valley over for a different train type pretty laughable.

 

[Krokodil]

Examples being, the public generally say the 197’s and 230’s are nice as they’re new and clean. They don’t get bogged down into any details such as number of toilets, what seat type is fitted or the overall window alignment in the coaches.

No, but they certainly notice the number of toilets when they're looking for a working one, and they'd be complaining about the seats if they were of the same spec as the DfT 800s. The average passenger won't have the first clue about the type of steel used for the wheels but they'll certainly have noticed the rolling stock shortage that has resulted.

 

[Smwrff]

This forum is new to me - but I wish I had found it earlier. I am particularly interested in the various Metro and Rail developments around Cardiff and I have spent the last few days trawling through 184 pages of comments - some interesting and well-informed - others not so much......

I have seen a few posts regarding the Cardiff Central to Cardiff Bay Tram line with people questioning the need, route and elevation of the proposed line.

The first point is why do we need the line when there is a perfectly good bus connection - This is because this is not a stand alone line but constitutes the central connection (Phase 1) of the Cardiff Cross Rail scheme which will eventually link North-West Cardiff (Creigiau) to East Cardiff (Newport Road/Rover Way and possibly onwards to Cardiff Parkway).

The line will initially start at a new platform built immediately to the south of the existing Cardiff Central station at street level. The location is clearly shown in the planning documents submitted for the Central Quay development - in the area currently occupied by the surface car park, but this area is being cleared for development just as soon as the new Multi-Storey Car Park comes into operation. The location enables future connections to St Mary Street and towards Penarth Road, although neither is being currently considered. However the line is clearly intended to be extended west along the Riverside alignment rising gently to join the main line route across the River Taff. This route should be finalised (and protected) in the South Central Masterplan currently being developed by Network Rail.

There is a tram corridor already identified in the planning documents for Callaghan Square, where it runs parallel to (but not on) the existing road layout to the south of the square. The route to connect east to Central Station is not defined, but is fairly obvious, and which will require some traffic management measures as it crosses Penarth Road. The route to connect east to the Cardiff Bay line is not so obvious - one option is to cross Bute Street at street level turning south to then climb parallel to join the Bay Line. But Cardiff Council plans for a Circle Line also indicate a connection north towards Queen Street (with a possible stop at Herbert Street). It is difficult to make this work at street level, so another option could be to elevate the route out of Callaghan Square with a triangular junction built over Bute Street. This would imply forward thinking and future-proofing so maybe unlikely.

This first phase should be achievable within 5 years.

My understanding is that the next phase will be to extend the Crossrail services eastwards from Cardiff Bay to e new station at Pierhead Street - but with the TAM lines continuing to terminate at Cardiff Bay to avoid any traffic interference to upset the tightly scheduled CVL lines). Meanwhile the line would extend westwards through Cardiff West junction (once its capacity limitations are resolved) and will initially continue to Radyr on the City Line. This could be 5-10 years away.

The final phase would be the completion of the line westwards to Creigiau and eastwards to Cardiff East with the Radyr to Callaghan Square service being replaced by the proposed Circle Line. This is probably at least 10 years away

 

[Peter Sarf]

This forum is new to me - but I wish I had found it earlier. I am particularly interested in the various Metro and Rail developments around Cardiff and I have spent the last few days trawling through 184 pages of comments - some interesting and well-informed - others not so much......

I have seen a few posts regarding the Cardiff Central to Cardiff Bay Tram line with people questioning the need, route and elevation of the proposed line.

The first point is why do we need the line when there is a perfectly good bus connection - This is because this is not a stand alone line but constitutes the central connection (Phase 1) of the Cardiff Cross Rail scheme which will eventually link North-West Cardiff (Creigiau) to East Cardiff (Newport Road/Rover Way and possibly onwards to Cardiff Parkway).

The line will initially start at a new platform built immediately to the south of the existing station at street level. The location is clearly shown in the planning documents submitted for the Central Quay development - in the area currently occupied by the surface car park, but this area is being cleared for development just as soon as the new Multi-Storey Car Park comes into operation. The location enables future connections to St Mary Street and towards Penarth Road, although neither is being currently considered. However the line is clearly intended to be extended west along the Riverside alignment rising gently to join the main line route across the River Taff. This route should be finalised (and protected) in the South Central Masterplan currently being developed by Network Rail.

There is a tram corridor already identified in the planning documents for Callaghan Square, where it runs parallel to (but not on) the existing road layout to the south of the square. The route to connect east to Central Station is not defined, but is fairly obvious, and which will require some traffic management measures as it crosses Penarth Road. The route to connect east to the Cardiff Bay line is not so obvious - one option is to cross Bute Street at street level turning south to then climb parallel to join the Bay Line. But Cardiff Council plans for a Circle Line also indicate a connection north towards Queen Street (with a possible stop at Herbert Street). It is difficult to make this work at street level, so another option could be to elevate the route out of Callaghan Square with a triangular junction built over Bute Street. This would imply forward thinking and future-proofing so maybe unlikely.

This first phase should be achievable within 5 years.

My understanding is that the next phase will be to extend the Crossrail services eastwards from Cardiff Bay to e new station at Pierhead Street - but with the TAM lines continuing to terminate at Cardiff Bay to avoid any traffic interference to upset the tightly scheduled CVL lines). Meanwhile the line would extend westwards through Cardiff West junction (once its capacity limitations are resolved) and will initially continue to Radyr on the City Line. This could be 5-10 years away.

The final phase would be the completion of the line westwards to Creigiau and eastwards to Cardiff East with the Radyr to Callaghan Square service being replaced by the proposed Circle Line. This is probably at least 10 years away

My bold. Which station is this ?.

And welcome to the forums.

 

[Brissle Girl]

It’s at Cardiff Central.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It’s at Cardiff Central.

Ah, thanks. Seems obvious now you mention it , I was rummaging in my mind up a line towards the valleys.

 

[Smwrff]

Cardiff Central. I have edited the original post for clarity.

I see that the mods occasionally get a bit excercised about discussions going off topic - and seeing this is already a large thread can I suggest splitting into a number of seperate threads:
1. South Wales Metro - Core Valley Lines
- this is the bulk of this thread and includes upgrades to the Treherbert, Aberdare & Merthyr (TAM) lines; Rhymney Valley lines; Cardiff Bay, Coryton & City Lines; Barry & Penarth Lines.
2. South Wales Metro - SWML Lines
- this includes Maesteg line; Ebbw Vale Line; SE Wales new stations/services (Burns Report); Cardiff Parkway
3. Cardiff Crossrail & Circle Lines
- including the Cardiff Central to Cardiff Bay line mentioned earlier
4. Cardiff Central Station
- this will see major developments starting this year with a Masterplan published and final design option announced
.
???

 

[Envoy]

Hi all,

I am the one who started this thread with the intention that it would cover all aspects of the SE Wales Metro project. When attempts have been made before to split the thread into bits, it has led to confusion and overlaps. The thread as it is, has proved incredibly popular and no doubt everybody concerned about the Metro is aware of it. (More popularity = more eyes on the forum - which is good for advertisers & hence site revenue).

The moderators appear to want this thread in the Infrastructure & Stations section to just give updates on the progress made thus far such as “wires now completed to Merthyr & live”. When people mention, for example the link between Cardiff Bay station & the lines in Splott, they have called it a ‘Speculative Idea’ and moved it to that section where it has quickly died a death. (The link through the Bay is not speculative but all part of the long term Metro plan as is the westward to extension to Cregiau).

Welcome Smwrff to the forum and I am pleased you found us. I hope that you will give the Planning application number for the area south of the Central station as that makes it easier to find on the Cardiff Council Planning portal. Taking your points above, if this is split into separate threads, I think we will have confusion. For example, Cardiff Crossrail (W to E), Cardiff Central, the Metro part of the main lines plus the valleys all interlink at some point or other. If for example, the transfer of passengers at Central between the core valleys (via Radyr) and lines going to the coast (Penarth, Barry, Rhoose, etc) proves to be a disaster, people might wonder which sub thread to put comments it into?

 

[PaulHarding150]

I vote to keep this thread as it is.

 

[Western 52]

I vote to keep this thread as it is.

Me too. Useful to have it all in one place.

 

[positron]

A separate future thread was made for some of the more far off speculative ideas but no one's really used it so I vote we keep this as is and just accept it pushes the boundaries a bit.

 

[Smwrff]

Ok - I am happy to stick with the combined thread.

 

[positron]

Tfws Christmas engineering works listed works at queen street. Does anyone know if this was just renewals or if it included any of the metro changes?

 

[Smwrff]

The line of the 'LRT Corridor' is shown in the planning application for South Callaghan Square (ref 12/01380) - and can be seen on Page 12 of the Design & Access Statement. I have also seen it in shown in more detail elsewhere...but will need to some more digging to find it.

 

[Envoy]

The line of the 'LRT Corridor' is shown in the planning application for South Callaghan Square (ref 12/01380) - and can be seen on Page 12 of the Design & Access Statement. I have also seen it in shown in more detail elsewhere...but will need to some more digging to find it.

That Planning Application which you mention I think refers to work already done. The number 12 means it is from 2012.

 

[Smwrff]

Yes this is an application from 2012 but which was never built. The line of the LRT shown is not part of this application but taken from another document - presumably a Cardiff Council strategic document or masterplan.

I see that a few posters have identified the capacity constraints north of Queen Street station, and propose that the line needs to be 4 tracked north of the station to segregate the Rhymney line from the TAM line. But also identify that this is difficult due to allowing development too close to the existing lines north of the Newport Road bridge. In particular the car park to the west of the line and the university buildings to the east.

From a construction engineering perspective this presents some interesting challenges but these are not insurmountable:

I suggest that installing two new single track bridges either side of the existing bridge would be the optimal arrangement, with no need to remove existing bridge. The abuttments would need to be extended using micropiling but this should be possible without impacting rail services.

There is probably enough room to squeeze in one new track to the east of the existing line without demolishing any of the university building by constructing a relatively short length of retaining wall.

The car park is more problematical, but it is not neccesary to demolish the whole thing. A partial demolition/dismantling of the south east corner (with some remodelling of internal traffic route) should free up enough space for an extra track to the west.

Sooner or later TfW (or Cardiff Council as proponents of the Circle Line) are going to conclude that this bottleneck needs to be removed but it is quite feasible and should not have an excessive cost or disrupt services too much.

 

[positron]

Yes this is an application from 2012 but which was never built. The line of the LRT shown is not part of this application but taken from another document - presumably a Cardiff Council strategic document or masterplan.

I see that a few posters have identified the capacity constraints north of Queen Street station, and propose that the line needs to be 4 tracked north of the station to segregate the Rhymney line from the TAM line. But also identify that this is difficult due to allowing development too close to the existing lines north of the Newport Road bridge. In particular the car park to the west of the line and the university buildings to the east.

From a construction engineering perspective this presents some interesting challenges but these are not insurmountable:

I suggest that installing two new single track bridges either side of the existing bridge would be the optimal arrangement, with no need to remove existing bridge. The abuttments would need to be extended using micropiling but this should be possible without impacting rail services.

There is probably enough room to squeeze in one new track to the east of the existing line without demolishing any of the university building by constructing a relatively short length of retaining wall.

The car park is more problematical, but it is not neccesary to demolish the whole thing. A partial demolition/dismantling of the south east corner (with some remodelling of internal traffic route) should free up enough space for an extra track to the west.

Sooner or later TfW (or Cardiff Council as proponents of the Circle Line) are going to conclude that this bottleneck needs to be removed but it is quite feasible and should not have an excessive cost or disrupt services too much.

4 tracking doesn't actually solve the issues you still have an at grade crossing of services, and given the land availability I don't see how they'd manage to do a grade separation. if they could get even a third track in that could be useful for having more options for multiple trains on the junction at once.

 

[StKeverne1497]

But yeah I think the idea they'll go a valley over for a different train type pretty laughable.

I think it's likely that people from the eastern side of "Merthyr" - that is Dowlais Top and such - travelling to central Cardiff would rather travel from Rhymney station than from Merthyr simply due to ease of access (and 4tph instead of 2), particularly once the works on the Heads of the Valleys route are complete (actually, that section pretty much is). I don't know the bus routes, but it's ok by car, and isn't there a plan to extend the parking at Rhymney?

It's also entirely possible to see infill development along the HotV road bringing quite a lot of housing to the area in the coming years. It's a shame there's no longer a line to Tredegar; Blackwood and adjacent areas would certainly benefit.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I think it's likely that people from the eastern side of "Merthyr" - that is Dowlais Top and such - travelling to central Cardiff would rather travel from Rhymney station than from Merthyr simply due to ease of access (and 4tph instead of 2),

Both lines will have 4tph under the final service plan. Also, anyone travelling to Cathays or the Bay would find Merthyr more convenient.

 

[baz2277]

Can I ask please, as a relative amateur with limited knowledge....I visited parents at home in the Rhondda over Christmas and can see the new OLE in place - they look really close together compared to equipment used for example on the WCML which i'm used to seeing. Is there any reason why the posts should be so close together? Pity they weren't green to try and blend in with the surroundings!

When the service resumes in February, i'm guessing the 150's will be back at the same frequency as before until the trams arrive? And take the same amount of time to cover the distances?

Also I can't believe no-one has tried to resurrect the old X9 Rhondda-Cardiff bus service when the line was closed last year. The 122 takes the long and winding road to Cardiff! Surely one of the local operators could have made a killing? Would they be allowed to use coaches on the service, or are there new regs in place that the service would need to be low floor? I fondly remember the old National Welsh service down the bypass from Tonyrefail!

 

[positron]

I think the track being curvier than the mainlines is why it requires more posts. But I'm no expert.

As for the service yes it's 150s initially and they hope to slowly introduce 756s in summer (not sure about Rhondda) and then 398s (trams) towards end of the year.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Can I ask please, as a relative amateur with limited knowledge....I visited parents at home in the Rhondda over Christmas and can see the new OLE in place - they look really close together compared to equipment used for example on the WCML which i'm used to seeing. Is there any reason why the posts should be so close together? Pity they weren't green to try and blend in with the surroundings!

When the service resumes in February, i'm guessing the 150's will be back at the same frequency as before until the trams arrive? And take the same amount of time to cover the distances?

Also I can't believe no-one has tried to resurrect the old X9 Rhondda-Cardiff bus service when the line was closed last year. The 122 takes the long and winding road to Cardiff! Surely one of the local operators could have made a killing? Would they be allowed to use coaches on the service, or are there new regs in place that the service would need to be low floor? I fondly remember the old National Welsh service down the bypass from Tonyrefail!

A fellow parent visitor here and I was very suprised at the progress made when I got down here the other day.

The plan is the 150s at 2 trains per hour initially, with 756s coming in over the summer for a period of time with the 398 tram trains coming in over time at the end of the 2024 / beginning of 2025. Not sure when the frequency and journey times improvements come in but I'd expect them to be when all the 398s are in.

In terms of the buses, I'd imagine the fact the line closure was always going to be temporary is one of the main reasons. Not sure a totally new bus route for less than a year is really worth it.

Also to note that now they've had months to get it right, the replacement bus operation is running really well and the combined train and replacement bus journey actually doesn't end up taking anywhere near as long as a regular bus route would take (journey times from Cardiff to where I am right now at my parents was about 55 minutes by train, is about 75 minutes by train and replacement bus currently and would be closer to 120 minutes by regular service bus).

 

[Smwrff]

4 tracking doesn't actually solve the issues you still have an at grade crossing of services, and given the land availability I don't see how they'd manage to do a grade separation. if they could get even a third track in that could be useful for having more options for multiple trains on the junction at once.

I see your point - separation of lines north of station just moves the problem south of the station. A flyover taking southbound TAM line over Rhymney lines is needed - and achievable with some effort ( Cardiff Uni would need to lose a building).

And another flyover taking northbound bay line over southbound lines....there is room for this....

 

[aleph_0]

Also I can't believe no-one has tried to resurrect the old X9 Rhondda-Cardiff bus service when the line was closed last year. The 122 takes the long and winding road to Cardiff! Surely one of the local operators could have made a killing? Would they be allowed to use coaches on the service, or are there new regs in place that the service would need to be low floor? I fondly remember the old National Welsh service down the bypass from Tonyrefail!

Stagecoach has added a few X132 services in for the Fach, running express from Pontypridd Caddy's to Cardiff. Expect they're unlikely to survive long term.

But, as others have said, the rail replacement service is as good as a RRS can be. Combine that with the Rhondda railcard, I can't see enough passengers looking to switch from rail to bus. There's definitely been some switching from rail to car - if you're going to be stuck in Porth-Ponty traffic anyway, if you own a car/have parking at destination, it makes sense. I expect similarly people will switch back when trains return.

Worth flagging the official pages:

Treherbert Line Transformation | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

Plan is for staff training in January, then the plan as WelshBluebird has outlined.

 

[yorkie]

Just a reminder that this is a thread for actual updates please.

Posts in the UK Railway category should avoid being speculative in nature; if anyone wishes to speculate, please create a new thread (if there isn't one already) in the appropriate forum section.

Many thanks

 

[Last Hurrah]

Are the City Line platform extensions at Waungron Park, Fairwater & Danescourt now completed ?

Ty Glas presumably will need to be extended - will it be lengthened for just 3 coach trains or will it cater for a 4 coach train ?

Will Coryton require any work for the new trains ?