GWR 'Project Churchward'

[Trainbike46]

Anything Churchward leads to will be DBEMU out of the box.

DBEMU? Diesel Battery EMU (ie a trimode)? or something else?

 

[REVUpminster]

FLIRT vehicles are short (16m if articulated at both ends so the same as a Pacer) so to be equivalent to a 4 car 150 you'd need 5 sections.

Does it include a toilet? Journey times from Barnstaple are over an hour and Paignton just under the hour to Exeter.

4 car and 2 car version of a 196 seem the only ones to get near the capacity of a 165, but is 4 cars to long for some "Devon Metro" stations or 2 cars on the Cornish branches which at a later stage might need longer trains if Newquay traffic grows?

 

[Anonymous10]

Does it include a toilet? Journey times from Barnstaple are over an hour and Paignton just under the hour to Exeter.

4 car and 2 car version of a 196 seem the only ones to get near the capacity of a 165, but is 4 cars to long for some "Devon Metro" stations or 2 cars on the Cornish branches which at a later stage might need longer trains if Newquay traffic grows?

Yes the flirts have toilets on board, believe its 1 on the class 231s

 

[REVUpminster]

Yes the flirts have toilets on board, believe its 1 on the class 231s

The 231 does have potential and I like the low door to platform. Still wonder about the capacity.

 

[Anonymous10]

The 231 does have potential and I like the low door to platform. Still wonder about the capacity.

They also have standing for over 100 people. Personally they could make a good fit.

 

[Trainbike46]

Does it include a toilet? Journey times from Barnstaple are over an hour and Paignton just under the hour to Exeter.

4 car and 2 car version of a 196 seem the only ones to get near the capacity of a 165, but is 4 cars to long for some "Devon Metro" stations or 2 cars on the Cornish branches which at a later stage might need longer trains if Newquay traffic grows?

Yes the flirts have toilets on board, believe its 1 on the class 231s

The 755s have two toilets on each unit. Toilet provision depends on the specific design, so could be made to suit what is needed at GWR easily.

The 19x family is a DMMU, so the design for churchward would have to be different to be a bimode or BEMU or trimode (and would likely be more similar to a 331 EMU with extra bits added).

The 231 does have potential and I like the low door to platform. Still wonder about the capacity.

Remember that all current UK flirts have 2+2 seating, a higher density layout is possible (though probably not desirable)

 

[Invincible]

Indeed, Northern's is specified with level boarding so I'd expect a similar requirement from GWR.

Guess there will be pressure to get some modified Alstom Aventras (with diesels and batteries added) ordered for Northern or GWR to keep Derby busy and not shutting?
The 345s on Elizabeth lines are level boarding and software problems (from outsourcing) seem to be much better now.

 

[JonathanH]

Guess there will be pressure to get some modified Alstom Aventras (with diesels and batteries added) ordered for Northern or GWR to keep Derby busy and not shutting?

Pressure from who exactly?

 

[CarrotPie]

Guess there will be pressure to get some modified Alstom Aventras (with diesels and batteries added) ordered for Northern or GWR to keep Derby busy and not shutting?

I highly doubt there will be any more straight AC Aventra orders (minus the extra 345s). GWR, I should think, will go for a FLIRT.

 

[JonathanH]

GWR, I should think, will go for a FLIRT.

...which does nothing for the UK train manufacturing crisis the previous poster was alluding to. Any choice of a Stadler product wouldn't necessitate the order being brought forward to alleviate that crisis.

 

[Class 317]

I was lucky enough to get an invite to the first Flirt Akku BEMU service in Holstein having worked as a consultant for the scheme modelling the energy consumption.

A BEMU order from Alstr based on thier Coradia platform would seem a quick win in both keeping work at Derby and allowing a reduction in Turbo use.

Suitable services would be all the Turbo services operated in the Thames valley and branches from Reading. Only limited bay platforms etc would need to be electrified which would be very low cost.

They could be rolled out to lines further west via a progressive programme of electrifying Caternary Islands for recharging.

Could be win win if additional class 345 were ordered to fill the gap whilst a UK loading guage variant was designed.

 

[REVUpminster]

Just thought about all the trains suggested; are any of them seaworthy??
Also Exeter Depot only has a three car lifting road and the potential to keep maintenance at Exeter could be lost, even though I don't think that lifting road or the bogie storage area has ever been used. Layover times in Devon and Cornwall are extremely short so not much time to recharge a battery.
Still cannot see anything with the capacity to beat a 3car 165 unless you can increase service levels which will require track and signalling upgrades.

 

[Class 317]

Charging times are shorter than most realise at around 15 mins for a full charge on overheads. Take say the Henley Branch.. It's a round trip of about 12 miles from memory which is probably about 10% of battery capacity at most. Recharge time would be measured in mins and likely to be about 3-4 mins with ramp up and down time.

 

[Invincible]

Part of the tender process, as well as jobs in UK, should be prototype trains running on various lines to ensure they are suitable and include good cabs, good software, seaworthyness on rough days at Dawlish, fast charging, ease of maintenance and other factors, not sorting problems out before service!. Will however be extra cost for those manufacturers not chosen?

 

[dgl]

One thing I would say is that whilst manufacturing in Britain is a good thing it should not be at the expense of a decent product, GWR will have these units for a long time and as such they don't want to be stuck with something that got ordered on it's assembly location not quality.

 

[Invincible]

One thing I would say is that whilst manufacturing in Britain is a good thing it should not be at the expense of a decent product, GWR will have these units for a long time and as such they don't want to be stuck with something that got ordered on it's assembly location not quality.

There is no reason why a product made in UK should not be of a good quality.
Most of Alstom's recent problems have been down to outsourced software which is now a lot better.

 

[Dan G]

I was lucky enough to get an invite to the first Flirt Akku BEMU service in Holstein having worked as a consultant for the scheme modelling the energy consumption.

A BEMU order from Alstr based on thier Coradia platform would seem a quick win in both keeping work at Derby and allowing a reduction in Turbo use.

Suitable services would be all the Turbo services operated in the Thames valley and branches from Reading. Only limited bay platforms etc would need to be electrified which would be very low cost.

They could be rolled out to lines further west via a progressive programme of electrifying Caternary Islands for recharging.

Could be win win if additional class 345 were ordered to fill the gap whilst a UK loading guage variant was designed.

What would be easier (or rather cheaper), refitting/retraining the Derby factory to build the modern Coradia, or adding generator units and batteries to the Aventra? I would think the latter but that's just a guess.

Or more likely Alstom really cuts back Derby, to the point it can do the HS2 work and then it's curtains, and Coradias continue being built where they are now.

 

[Meerkat]

Being a cynic….is there anything in the spec that might be considered to disfavour Stadler?
IF keeping UK factories in operation is a priority they will do that or deliberately go for a timetable that Stadler can’t do - how busy are their factories?

 

[CarrotPie]

IF keeping UK factories in operation is a priority they will do that or deliberately go for a timetable that Stadler can’t do - how busy are their factories?

I doubt the speccy people will anything in their power to help UK builders. In terms of factories, 14 of Stadler's 14 are in the EU, and they still seem to be mopping up orders like a sponge. My money would be on either Stadler (cos they're good) or CAF (because the UK like them, even though they're bad) winning the contract, possibly Alstom if they have something like a Coradia, but I don't really fancy their chances.

 

[Invincible]

Being a cynic….is there anything in the spec that might be considered to disfavour Stadler?
IF keeping UK factories in operation is a priority they will do that or deliberately go for a timetable that Stadler can’t do - how busy are their factories?

The PM is aware hundreds of jobs can be lost in a Conservative marginal seat in an election year.
But as we know from "Yes Minister" politics will never affect large order decisions!!???

I expect Coradia diesel battery technology can be used in an Aventra?

 

[Dan G]

Being a cynic….is there anything in the spec that might be considered to disfavour Stadler?
IF keeping UK factories in operation is a priority they will do that or deliberately go for a timetable that Stadler can’t do - how busy are their factories?

There isn't even a spec yet; people are getting a bit ahead of themselves!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The PM is aware hundreds of jobs can be lost in a Conservative marginal seat in an election year.
But as we know from "Yes Minister" politics will never affect large order decisions!!???

There isn't even a spec yet; people are getting a bit ahead of themselves!

Taking these together, and adding in that (a) the general election must be held by 28 January 2025 (source https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_United_Kingdom_general_election) and (b) the current incumbents are expected to lose, a suitably Yes Ministerish approach would be to allow the spec to be prepared on a totally open basis - so allowing the opposition (i.e. the current government) to complain that the new government have sold British industry out when the contract goes abroad.

 

[REVUpminster]

What good would a Coradia be in Devon and Cornwall for local traffic? A 23m 3 car version of the Alstom Spacium would turn a few heads. and might have the capacity of a 165. 4 car 150 and 3 car 158s, and 166/5 replacements are needed down here.

There is not going to be one design that fits all; there must be at least two to replace regional and local services which would have to cater for local expansion around Exeter, Truro, and maybe Plymouth and be able to make use of Exeter depot that was built as the hub for rolling stock and crew.

 

[Lurcheroo]

A class 165 3 car has 259 seats and standing for 86. A four car 755 has 202 plus 27 tip up seats, standing I don't know. A flirt does not seem an improvement to capacity unless you run more of them. I can't see them going to Barnstaple unless every half hour.

A four car 150/2 has 244 seats, two toilets and wasted space with the middle cabs. What's to replace them?

Does it include a toilet? Journey times from Barnstaple are over an hour and Paignton just under the hour to Exeter.

4 car and 2 car version of a 196 seem the only ones to get near the capacity of a 165, but is 4 cars to long for some "Devon Metro" stations or 2 cars on the Cornish branches which at a later stage might need longer trains if Newquay traffic grows?

So a 4 car 196 (WMT) has 311 seats.
A 3 car 197 (TFW) has 188 seats.
A 2 car 197 (TFW) has 116 seats.
So assuming you just added another middle coach (MSL) which I estimate has (188-116) 72 seats in then I would estimate a 4 car 197 (TFW) would have (188+72) 260 seats.
So pretty bang on with the 3 car 165.
Obviously any issues with short platforms is easily handled by ASDO as it is now for TFW’s 197’s.

Something like a CAF 197 would make more sense on GWR as they are similar journeys to the Cardiff to Manchester TFw corridor. However , from a staff perspective I'd suggest doing away with the massive walk through gangway doors, as the cab and cab side window on 197s look miniscule (though happy to be corrected with anyone who actually works them???)

They are a bit more restrictive sighting side compared to the 158’s but you can see plenty, only if you’re on a tight right hand bend do you lose out. Not worth losing the gangways for in my opinion.
Another much longer standing and more experienced TFW driver says similar in post #5,501 on the TFW CAF Civity thread.

Assuming you mean the rather small windscreen (caused by having such a large gangway), it's honestly not as noticeable or as big of a problem as you'd expect. Other than at a handful of places where you're approaching a potentially red signal on a tight right hand curve, for normal operations it gives more than sufficient visibility. It's also nice to be able to see out the left hand side window to line up with platform stop boards, something you couldn't do with 175s.

I’ll also add that at a bare minimum, the seats TFW have in their 197’s should be used. The seats in the 196’s and 195’s just don’t seem suitable for longer distance. I can see why some say even the 197’s seats aren’t.

I’ve heard the seats Avanti are putting in the 805/807’s are much nicer So If they can get even nicer seats, that would be a real win.

 

[REVUpminster]

A four car 197 sounds alright until fitting it into Exeter depot which has a lifting road for 3 cars not that I think it has ever been used. The two other roads are for 5 car 800s or 3 and 2 car sets.

 

[Lurcheroo]

A four car 197 sounds alright until fitting it into Exeter depot which has a lifting road for 3 cars not that I think it has ever been used. The two other roads are for 5 car 800s or 3 and 2 car sets.View attachment 149595

Yes, depends on what they would need to have done a Exter TMD I suppose!
They could potentially go for TFW style and go for 2+2, 3+2, 3+3 and 2+2+2 if the depot was an issue. But you do lose a bit of seating to the unused cabs.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

A four car 197 sounds alright until fitting it into Exeter depot which has a lifting road for 3 cars not that I think it has ever been used. The two other roads are for 5 car 800s or 3 and 2 car sets.View attachment 149595

What makes you think it has never been used…

 

[Xavi]

I may be wrong, but sure I recall Mark Hopwood talked about 5-car units for Cardiff-Portsmouth/Penzance and 3-car elsewhere, and that one common interior could work. Replacing the 387s now appears to be part of the plan too.

 

[RobShipway]

Could you not have a joint Stadler-Alstom train which is built in Derby?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Could you not have a joint Stadler-Alstom train which is built in Derby?

That’s up to the manufacturer to decide to have a joint venture and tender accordingly.