GWR 'Project Churchward'

[Benjwri]

BEMUs or Battery Electric Multiple Units use batteries, not diesel, when there aren't wires (or another power source). Maybe you confused them with Bimodes, which is what most 80x are

Ahhh fair enough yes, confused the two

 

[cslusarc]

Personally, I think BEMUs for GWR are a post-2035 solution only if electrification of the Western region restarts. If there is no firm commitment to restart electrification by 2025 with a commitment to fully electrifying the Great Western Main Line, then GWR will need DMUs to replace its Sprinters & possibly D-E bimodes to replace the Turbos.

 

[RobShipway]

Personally, I think BEMUs for GWR are a post-2035 solution only if electrification of the Western region restarts. If there is no firm commitment to restart electrification by 2025 with a commitment to fully electrifying the Great Western Main Line, then GWR will need DMUs to replace its Sprinters & possibly D-E bimodes to replace the Turbos.

I think that GWR only option personally within the next 15 years is to be replacing any trains with bi-modes, that can be transferred into BEMU units if needed within the next 20 years. The closest to that as I see it, is the Class 755/756 units. Unless Hitachi can make a convertible version of their AT200 class 385 trains and Alstom do a version of Aventra that can be converted in the same manner. Otherwise, we are looking at trains that would need time to be developed. But within the next few years you will need something to replace the class 150 units, then the class 158/165/166 units.

 

[Class 317]

I think that GWR only option personally within the next 15 years is to be replacing any trains with bi-modes, that can be transferred into BEMU units if needed within the next 20 years. The closest to that as I see it, is the Class 755/756 units. Unless Hitachi can make a convertible version of their AT200 class 385 trains and Alstom do a version of Aventra that can be converted in the same manner. Otherwise, we are looking at trains that would need time to be developed. But within the next few years you will need something to replace the class 150 units, then the class 158/165/166 units.

I think the sensible strategy would be be BEMU'S for anything based around Bristol and the Thames Valleys.

Limited electrification would be part of the Thames Valley package for example the branch platforms at Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough and Basingstoke. I'd imagine the cost to be very low for the small extensions.

The Bristol area package would include wider electrification maybe from Bristol Parkway to Temple Meads with possible OHLE islands at some or all of Westbury, Salisbury, Gloucester, Weston Super Mare or Taunton. I'd have to carry out detailed modelling for exact locations. This package would see most local greater Bristol services move to electric operation.

 

[Snow1964]

I think the sensible strategy would be be BEMU'S for anything based around Bristol and the Thames Valleys.

Limited electrification would be part of the Thames Valley package for example the branch platforms at Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough and Basingstoke. I'd imagine the cost to be very low for the small extensions.

Totally agree with this, I think have to accept that over next 10-15 years a common solution with BEMUs for Devon and Cornwall (where there is no electrification) is not workable.

Of course there are number of newer diesel trains that are 15-20 years old, which might get displaced elsewhere which could move to Devon-Cornwall on a interim basis to get them through to nearer 2040.

Of course there have been many lines that are effectively wired as a long siding (eg Marks Tey, Romford-Barking). That is just basic wire, just wired as a spur from what is already there. More than adequate for a 4-8car EMU at modest speed. Obviously cannot take that approach on the Mendip branches if likely to have 4+ Mw electric loco hauled stone trains.

The Bristol area package would include wider electrification maybe from Bristol Parkway to Temple Meads with possible OHLE islands at some or all of Westbury, Salisbury, Gloucester, Weston Super Mare or Taunton. I'd have to carry out detailed modelling for exact locations. This package would see most local greater Bristol services move to electric operation.

Interestingly when start looking at detail, find some add one could be relatively cheap, as example if you add start of Westbury line from Bathampton, there is no structure for about 2 miles until get to Dundas aqueduct. Do this and easily got range for BEMU to reach Frome and Warminster. Probably could get a dual voltage BEMU to comfortably reach Redbridge too, so converting Portsmouth-Cardiff becomes possible.

There are going to be problems, Weymouth, Worcester etc is beyond a Bristol based BEMU (and if third rail could be extended couple of hundred metres to Dorchester West is for another thread), certainly don't want to be using batteries for big hill up from Weymouth.

The way I see it is strong case to finish the Chippenham-Bristol and Parkway-Bristol TM electrification. I would also think 170m platforms to allow existing EMUs (in pairs at peak times) to operate would be sensible. With so many surplus EMUs stored (379, some 720s etc) I would strongly advocate adding Bathampton-Westbury-Frome/Warminster to electrification plans. I would also add Henbury-Weston super Mare.

Not sure if main line electrification should end at Weston s Mare, or if it should go bit further south to near Bridgewater, more specifically the former Royal Ordnance Factory 37, now called Gravity, especially if going to make lots of heavy electric car batteries there. Wouldn't go any further south towards Taunton though until at least late 2030s. Battery EMUs can cover this section for time being.

Infilling Westbury-Newbury and Trowbridge-Chippenham and extending to Whatley and Merehead quarries is not for this thread, as it is more a question of electrically hauled freight. But would also look at going north from Yate area towards Gloucester. You really want to get those trains to Worcester from Bristol with battery range (but I don't know how far is required, probably somewhere near Cam and Dursley).

Unless homes elsewhere can be found for 387s along with money for replacement by battery EMUs, it is why I would also add Swindon-Kemble electrification (and ideally reopen one of the branch platforms as reversing line). My reasoning is Swindon bad place to terminate EMUs (sort of done for operational convenience instead of Didcot) and there is huge housing developments 2300+ homes (called The Steadings) between Cirencester and Kemble, which actually has old Cirencester branch as part of its boundary. So Kemble/Cirencester area seems better place than Swindon to terminate EMUs.

 

[AndrewE]

I think the sensible strategy would be be BEMU'S for anything based around Bristol and the Thames Valleys.

Totally agree with this, I think have to accept that over next 10-15 years a common solution with BEMUs for Devon and Cornwall (where there is no electrification) is not workable.

All absolutely correct, but we know that a) the UK doesn't do transport planning any more, and b) that even blindingly obvious schemes which involve rail expenditure will be redesigned many times to reduce the price even if it means that the scheme can't deliver the desired or required benefits... Which still incurs lots of costs but for no significant gains.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

If you go for the 755s (or any other BEMU) then it's a clear choice for the government, diesel until you provide us the infrastructure for electric running. At the moment the government are grasping for a cheap option and there isn't one for public transport, they will soon realise that

 

[Class 317]

The Thames Valley reading based services would only really require a few hundred meters of extra overhead or 3rd rail to be installed at locations that already have these installed on other lines. I'd imagine around £10-15m would easily cover the required works.

Operational savings might come from use of BEMU'S to operate Reading to Bedwyn and Paddington to Oxford from reduced numbers of units required.

In terms of deciding the section to be electrified a hill like up to Dorchester or from Exeter st David's up to Exeter Central would be likely to be specified as they would extend battery range by removing the high energy use sections.

I personally think a cascade strategy covering large DMU users would see BEMU'S replace the oldest DMU's first via an area by area rolling out of BEMU'S in suitable service groups ideally on a least cost basis. Then as BEMU'S continue to get better work on the longer routes.

 

[anthony263]

I do wonder could you fit batteries to a class 387 ?

Just wondering because if great night the 379s could GWR get some extra class 387s and run sone fitted with batteries and 3rd rail shoes and used them say on the North downs line as well as extending the London to Newbury service to Bedwyn

 

[JonathanH]

Just wondering because if great night the 379s could GWR get some extra class 387s and run sone fitted with batteries and 3rd rail shoes and used them say on the North downs line as well as extending the London to Newbury service to Bedwyn

It would certainly be interesting if the 379s were used to displace other rolling stock to do things like this. No one has ever indicated what GTR actually needs 30 more units for. Displacement of stock to other routes makes some sense in that context.

 

[Energy]

I do wonder could you fit batteries to a class 387 ?

Just wondering because if great night the 379s could GWR get some extra class 387s and run sone fitted with batteries and 3rd rail shoes and used them say on the North downs line as well as extending the London to Newbury service to Bedwyn

They can but they lose one of their traction packs so can only do 100mph as opposed to 110mph. Otherwise, they'd have been considered for Bedwyn.

Not an issue for North Downs but they'd have to be kept as a separate sub fleet.

It would certainly be interesting if the 379s were used to displace other rolling stock to do things like this. No one has ever indicated what GTR actually needs 30 more units for. Displacement of stock to other routes makes some sense in that context.

It's reasonable to expect that the Great Northern additional units are for cascading the more flexible 387s elsewhere.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I do wonder could you fit batteries to a class 387 ?

Just wondering because if great night the 379s could GWR get some extra class 387s and run sone fitted with batteries and 3rd rail shoes and used them say on the North downs line as well as extending the London to Newbury service to Bedwyn

ROSCOs have made this quite clear in terms of 387s they aren’t interested in making a non standard version of the unit with batteries and 100mph when demand is there for the standard version.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Not sure who’s going to pay for all this fantasy rlectrication but I’d be astonished if you see wires at Bristol Temple Meads this side of 2040.

 

[CarrotPie]

No one has ever indicated what GTR actually needs 30 more units for. Displacement of stock to other routes makes some sense in that context.

It's reasonable to expect that the Great Northern additional units are for cascading the more flexible 387s elsewhere.

I believe GN would cascade the 387s over to Southern to increase capacity over there.

 

[anthony263]

Not sure who’s going to pay for all this fantasy rlectrication but I’d be astonished if you see wires at Bristol Temple Meads this side of 2040.

Think the Authorities in Bristol.were given money by the uk government from the cancellation of the Northern section of HS2. I they wanted Filton bank wired

 

[AndrewE]

Not sure who’s going to pay for all this fantasy rlectrication but I’d be astonished if you see wires at Bristol Temple Meads this side of 2040.

Fantasy electrification? What an attitude!
I can't imagine any other country in the world which would electrify almost to the biggest city of the area, the regional centre, and then refuse to do the bit of railway in the middle of the city where trains stand idling and from where most acceleration happens.
England will be a laughing stock once the rest of the world realises how we fail to complete programmes, getting most of the pain (costs) but never anywhere near the full benefit.

 

[Dan G]

Any new train order for GWR won't be for delivery until 2030 or later. Any new train will be expected to last at least 30 years, well beyond the 2050 net zero date, and will be capable of conversion to zero emissions operation.

Anything that is ordered will feature modular power rafts that will enable diesel generators and fuel tanks to be replaced with batteries, as pioneered by the IETs. Alstom has to decide if it wants to compete; Stadler and CAF already have the product. Siemens and Alstom have battery train IP but not afaik in UK loading guage nor modular.

Civity trains with all types of traction can be equipped with batteries. These can be used to move the train without external power supply or to provide extra power to the train when there is a limitation in the catenary power. Batteries can also enable energy storage during braking reducing energy consumption.

CAF energy storage systems are modular and configurable, making them easily adaptable to requirements of each customer.

CAF has battery powered rolling stock in revenue service since 2010: Seville Tramway, Saragossa Tramway, Birmingham Tramway or Kaohsiung Tramway among others.

CAF-Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles, your railway solutions

CAF est un leader international en matière de conception, fabrication, maintenance et livraison d’équipements et de composants pour systèmes ferroviaires.

www.caf.net

 

[Pat31]

Not sure who’s going to pay for all this fantasy rlectrication but I’d be astonished if you see wires at Bristol Temple Meads this side of 2040.

Would hardly call this fantasy electrification. Filton Bank and Chippenham to TM are pretty much top of the list for electrification projects in the UK as all major civils have already been undertake, the plans are already there and spare capacity in the electric distribution grid for the network exists. Also 15 years is a long time for the state of a countries finances to change. I'd give it 10 years max to get those routes electrified.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Would hardly call this fantasy electrification. Filton Bank and Chippenham to TM are pretty much top of the list for electrification projects in the UK as all major civils have already been undertake, the plans are already there and spare capacity in the electric distribution grid for the network exists. Also 15 years is a long time for the state of a countries finances to change. I'd give it 10 years max to get those routes electrified.

Who’s going to pay for it?

 

[Class 317]

Who’s going to pay for it?

It would be paid for by operating savings from use of electric traction over a wide area which has much lower operating costs.

There is also likely to be savings in unit diagrams and staff particularly if the Thames valley services to Bedwyn and Oxford switched to electric traction.

This is how a lot of the schemes in the 80's established there business cases. Money saved outweighed the costs.

Also use of BEMU'S will substantially lower the cost of conversion of service groups to electric operation.

 

[Snow1964]

Who’s going to pay for it?

Seems Government included the Bristol area in the list of HS2 reallocations about 3 months ago, immediately after the Sunak cancellation speech, the early versions even said Filton-Bristol rail electrification although within day or two became Metrowest (the Bristol area combined Authority) projects instead.

Nothing recent has been heard, most recent think I can find published is this article about 14-16% growth in local Bristol trains in a year (but the busier trains and crowding is probably better in GWR turbos thread)

Following the introduction of 30-minute train services between Bristol and Gloucester - benefitting locals in Filton Abbey Wood, Bristol Parkway and Yate - Great Western Railway has confirmed a year-on-year increase in passengers in September of 15.6%

Plus, there’s been a 14.4% jump in passengers between Bristol and Westbury - benefitting those at Keynsham, Oldfield Park, Bath Spa and Freshford - following the introduction of half-hour services on that line.

It comes after a £7 million-plus investment from the Mayoral Combined Authority to introduce more frequent services for West of England passengers back in May 2023.

Dan Norris, West of England Mayor, said: “Growing passenger numbers is key to building a thriving, reliable local public transport network in the West of England.

“I’m pleased to see the uptake in these half-hourly services benefitting residents in Yate, Keynsham and other brilliant West of England communities. These are really very encouraging early signs.

“It’s all part of the Mayoral Combined Authority I lead’s multi-million-pound programme of rail improvements which is doing things like introducing more frequent journeys and building new stations.

“All this plus our recent victory in keeping all the West’s ticket booths open are key steps in getting more people out of their cars and onto trains - especially for those shorter everyday journeys - which in turn will help reduce congestion and emissions, and better connect our amazing region.”

The new and improved services have been delivered in partnership with GWR plus Network Rail.

Dan Okey, GWR Head of Regional Commercial Development, added: "We are really pleased to have been able to deliver these extra services, funded by West of England Combined Authority as part of the wider MetroWest scheme, and to see the positive impact that they have made.

“The continued growth in demand shows just how important good rail connections are for the community and the economies they serve, and we look forward to being able to deliver further improvements in the future.”

Latest News - West of England Combined Authority

West of England Combined Authority latest news

www.westofengland-ca.gov.uk

 

[Dan G]

Electrification hasn't stopped in England. But what will be next after the TRU and the MML electrification in CP7 is unknown.