GWR 'Project Churchward'

[CarrotPie]

Replacing the 387s now appears to be part of the plan too.

What's your source for that? Replacing 6-year-old 387s seems a bit premature...

 

[irish_rail]

What's your source for that? Replacing 6-year-old 387s seems a bit premature...

It would seem a shame, for my mind they are GWRs best stock (internally) based on my admittedly limited passenger experience. Nice trains that seem to go well.

 

[Benjwri]

What's your source for that? Replacing 6-year-old 387s seems a bit premature...

The DfT list of pipeline tenders listed them as being potentially replaced by churchward, but undecided.

I don’t think there’s a point in replacing them with a purely AC train, but if the replacement was a Bi-Mode it would increase resilience to failures, as there is a larger fleet, make more of a common fleet for training and also most importantly allow through running in places like Bedwyn and Oxford where there are currently shuttles, and perhaps allow for IETs to be leveraged off routes such as London-Oxford fasts, and London to Bristol, obvious where appropriate for capacity.

 

[InTheEastMids]

The DfT list of pipeline tenders listed them as being potentially replaced by churchward, but undecided.

I don’t think there’s a point in replacing them with a purely AC train, but if the replacement was a Bi-Mode it would increase resilience to failures, as there is a larger fleet, make more of a common fleet for training and also most importantly allow through running in places like Bedwyn and Oxford where there are currently shuttles, and perhaps allow for IETs to be leveraged off routes such as London-Oxford fasts, and London to Bristol, obvious where appropriate for capacity.

For others who haven't seen this, the DfT lists future procurements (of all sorts) here:

Future commercial contracts for DfT and partners

Listing of upcoming Department for Transport (DfT) and associated bodies commercial contracts – known as the commercial pipeline – for which bidders may apply.

www.gov.uk

The very bottom row on the spreadsheet linked from that page appears to be this procurement, and is described:
"Replacement of all existing DMUs (and possibly EMUs) with 24m vehicles (currently 20m length). Fleet size TBC but current estimates are for 480 vehicles (mixture of DC BEMU, AC BEMU, AC EMU and bi-modes) to be delivered between 2029 and 2031"

 

[Trainbike46]

For others who haven't seen this, the DfT lists future procurements (of all sorts) here:

Future commercial contracts for DfT and partners

Listing of upcoming Department for Transport (DfT) and associated bodies commercial contracts – known as the commercial pipeline – for which bidders may apply.

www.gov.uk

The very bottom row on the spreadsheet linked from that page appears to be this procurement, and is described:
"Replacement of all existing DMUs (and possibly EMUs) with 24m vehicles (currently 20m length). Fleet size TBC but current estimates are for 480 vehicles (mixture of DC BEMU, AC BEMU, AC EMU and bi-modes) to be delivered between 2029 and 2031"

DC BEMU seems an odd one to list - wouldn't you want any DC-compatible vehicle to be dual voltage AC and DC?

 

[Benjwri]

DC BEMU seems an odd one to list - wouldn't you want any DC-compatible vehicle to be dual voltage AC and DC?

I assume it’s just for Gatwick services, with battery being enough to make it to the depot, but I doubt the plan is set yet.

If anything you would want diesel rather than AC, any DC train is very limited where it can go on the GWML anyways without its shoes being taken off, as the ballast had been known to take them off for GWR when they accidentally drove them past Maidenhead once.

 

[RobShipway]

DC BEMU seems an odd one to list - wouldn't you want any DC-compatible vehicle to be dual voltage AC and DC?

That does seem odd, unless you are having a dedicated fleet for Reading - Redhill/Gatwick and Portsmouth - Cardiff services?

 

[Benjwri]

Portsmouth - Cardiff services

That’s far too far for a BEMU anyways, you’d need diesel to make it, and there is more OHLE than 3rd rail iirc

 

[Trainbike46]

That’s far too far for a BEMU anyways, you’d need diesel to make it, and there is more OHLE than 3rd rail iirc

Would it be too far if it could charge at both ends using both the OHLE and 3rd rail?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2024 ==

I assume it’s just for Gatwick services, with battery being enough to make it to the depot, but I doubt the plan is set yet.

If anything you would want diesel rather than AC, any DC train is very limited where it can go on the GWML anyways without its shoes being taken off, as the ballast had been known to take them off for GWR when they accidentally drove them past Maidenhead once.

Having a subfleet for one service would seem less than ideal, or is that just me?

presumably any units using diesel would be under the bimode heading

 

[CarrotPie]

If anything you would want diesel rather than AC, any DC train is very limited where it can go on the GWML anyways without its shoes being taken off, as the ballast had been known to take them off for GWR when they accidentally drove them past Maidenhead once.

Just raise them?

 

[RobShipway]

That’s far too far for a BEMU anyways, you’d need diesel to make it, and there is more OHLE than 3rd rail iirc

There is a fair bit of the journey from Portsmouth Harbour to Millbrook where the train comes off the South Western mainline which is 3rd rail DC, hence the DC BEMU units, I would think?

 

[JonathanH]

What's your source for that? Replacing 6-year-old 387s seems a bit premature...

That depends whether there is somewhere else they could be operated.

 

[CarrotPie]

There is a fair bit of the journey from Portsmouth Harbour to Millbrook where the train comes off the South Western mainline which is 3rd rail DC, hence the DC BEMU units, I would think?

What? Portsmouth-Millbrook is entirely third rail, but Millbrook-Cardiff is too far to do on batteries. How do DC BEMUs help here?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2024 ==

That depends whether there is somewhere else they could be operated.

If there was, surely the 379s would be there already?

 

[REVUpminster]

What makes you think it has never been used…

I've never seen a report of it being used or the bogie storage area. I would be pleased to be corrected.

 

[RobShipway]

What? Portsmouth-Millbrook is entirely third rail, but Millbrook-Cardiff is too far to do on batteries. How do DC BEMUs help here?

Yes, that was my point in a reply to @Benjwri that Portsmouth Harbour to Millbrook is third rail. From Millbrook onwards, it would have to be using Diesel power/Battery power unless the route from Millbrook has been electrified in some form.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It would seem a shame, for my mind they are GWRs best stock (internally) based on my admittedly limited passenger experience. Nice trains that seem to go well.

Travelling from Cardiff to London on them is not fun.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2024 ==

If there was, surely the 379s would be there already?

Perhaps the DfT/GWR don't want to justify Akiem's allegedly scandalous prices.

 

[Meerkat]

DC BEMU seems an odd one to list - wouldn't you want any DC-compatible vehicle to be dual voltage AC and DC?

Doesn’t AC need a big heavy transformer that DC doesn’t, using space that could be used for more batteries?
Presumably a Churchward DC BEMU would be front runner for Southern and SWR to use too, and would be pretty safe with the chance of DC extensions being somewhat restricted.

 

[Snow1964]

What? Portsmouth-Millbrook is entirely third rail, but Millbrook-Cardiff is too far to do on batteries. How do DC BEMUs help here?

In Southampton area, junction is just west of Redbridge, not Millbrook.

A dual voltage BEMU could run on ac from Patchway-Cardiff, and there is still talk of finishing the Chippenham-Bath-Bristol, and Bristol to Bristol Parkway electrification. There have also been plans (unfunded) to add Bath (Bathampton)-Trowbridge and Warminster/Frome sections

A lot will depend on if local service uses EMUs or needs BEMUs

 

[Energy]

Perhaps the DfT/GWR don't want to justify Akiem's allegedly scandalous prices.

The 379s are on retainer for GTR so no one else can have them. I'd expect some movement soon.

Source:

No they, they’ll replace 387s to Southern. They are on retainer at GTR, not available to anyone else, just waiting for them to bring them in rather than store them.

Doesn’t AC need a big heavy transformer that DC doesn’t, using space that could be used for more batteries?

TLDR you can lose the main transformer but it really depends on the trains electrical supply, the rest is a load of electrical information that somebody out there might find interesting.

Generally, you have a transformer for the pantograph which has one winding for the auxiliary bus and a winding for each traction pack. On a small, simple train like the class 350, the pantograph and transformer are on the same vehicle. On longer trains like the class 390, there are 2 transformers with a 25kv cable running in between to connect them. There are 2 pantographs but only 1 is raised at one time*.

The class 800 and 801 also has 2 pantographs with a 25kv bus running between them. From what I can tell each motor vehicle has its own supply converter which can draw of this bus (at a lower voltage) or of the vehicles generator unit. Each supply converter can produce its own auxilliary power but they run in parralel between vehicles for redundancy and to supply non motor vehicles.



I haven't found any electrical details about the FLIRT but it does have 2 pantographs and a bus connecting them with the traction motors under the non-jacobs bogeys

*The class 700 is unique in that it has multiple transformers due to its length but it has multiple pantographs raised rather than a 25kv bus.

 

[anthony263]

There is a fair bit of the journey from Portsmouth Harbour to Millbrook where the train comes off the South Western mainline which is 3rd rail DC, hence the DC BEMU units, I would think?

I believe GWR have stated if the wires reached Bristol TM from Chippenham and Filton a battery fitted emu could have the range to bridge the gap from Bathampton to just outside Southampton. In theory if there's none electrification id extend the wires to Westbury to be on the safe side plus Westbury to Newbury could allow some freight to use electric locos

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2024 ==

In Southampton area, junction is just west of Redbridge, not Millbrook.

A dual voltage BEMU could run on ac from Patchway-Cardiff, and there is still talk of finishing the Chippenham-Bath-Bristol, and Bristol to Bristol Parkway electrification. There have also been plans (unfunded) to add Bath (Bathampton)-Trowbridge and Warminster/Frome sections

A lot will depend on if local service uses EMUs or needs BEMUs

Of that comes off if the wires reached castle cary perhaps a BEMU could run to Weymouth

 

[Class 317]

Any DC BEMU'S would almost certainly have AC capability as well. Given the range of routes BEMU'S could operate on which would include Cardiff to Portsmouth if electrified through Bath in the future.

I'd be surprised if they didn't order all the BEMU'S as DC and AC capable for fleet commonality. Would make so much sense from an operating point of view as both Bristol and Reading based units would be in a common pool with routes involving DC operations.

In Holstein in Germany they are diagraming 2 car Stapler Akku on 80 km runs off the wires taking a cautious start to BEMU operation. The range is actually around 150km depending on the route.

Interestingly, they are installing short OHLE extensions, wiring additional platforms and OHLE islands at terminating stations allowing a greatly increased operating area they can cover for a very low capital cost. A network not dissimilar to the one around Bristol is being electrified via a combination these methods to allow 30 Stradler Flirt Akku to operate for a cost of 40m Euro.

 

[Energy]

Any DC BEMU'S would almost certainly have AC capability as well.

I'd be surprised if they didn't order all the BEMU'S as DC and AC capable for fleet commonality. Would make so much sense from an operating point of view as both Bristol and Reading based units would be in a common pool with routes involving DC operations.

I'd expect so as well.

I think people are forgetting this is one line in an Excel document listing what they expect, it isn't a finalised tender or order.

Given the range of routes BEMU'S could operate on which would include Cardiff to Portsmouth if electrified through Bath in the future.

Said by Mark Hopwood himself, he's big on getting Oxford and Bristol (both ways) electrified as well as partial electrification and batteries. I'd expect the battery option to be a big part of project churchward, it'll be interesting how much it overshadows diesel.

 

[REVUpminster]

I have flirted with a 231 and gone off it. Length 80m (seats 170).

150/2 80m (244/272).158 69m (198). 165 70m (259). 166 (244).

The seats come from GWR facilities guide.

A variant of the 4 car 197 94m with two trailers (approx 250/260) seems the only option or a mixture of 2 and 3 car to fit Exeter depot.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That’s far too far for a BEMU anyways, you’d need diesel to make it, and there is more OHLE than 3rd rail iirc

Cardiff Central to Patchway is 32 miles and Portsmouth Harbour to Redbridge is 28 miles, so while you're correct, there isn't a great deal in it. It's fairly evenly split. A good eighty miles of nothing in between of course

 

[Snow1964]

Only partly on topic, but relevant, is a Parliamentary committee 9th Jan who commented on GWR service and Ministers replies.
Whilst it was lot of general talk on problems, and possibly nothing will really get done, seems minister is meeting GWR stakeholders yesterday, as he said

. I am also meeting my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead and other members of the Great Western Railway stakeholder advisory board tomorrow.

Does seem they still appreciate leisure travel is now significant, which project Churchward routes generally are (as opposed to business travel to London)

Link to Hansard

Debate: Great Western Main Line - 9th Jan 2024

Tue 9th Jan 2024 - Commons - Great Western Main Line debate

www.parallelparliament.co.uk

 

[anthony263]

Looks like we could possibly see Filton bank electrified in the near future then

 

[Benjwri]

Looks like we could possibly see Filton bank electrified in the near future then

I think this was in reference to the money given to the West of England Combined Authority, who have not mentioned any plans for this money yet. I would be surprised if it was, given the very limited benefit of such a scheme.

 

[anthony263]

I think this was in reference to the money given to the West of England Combined Authority, who have not mentioned any plans for this money yet. I would be surprised if it was, given the very limited benefit of such a scheme.

Could allow EMUs Cardiff Central to Bristol TM, BEMUs could be used to say Severn beach etc

 

[Benjwri]

Could allow EMUs Cardiff Central to Bristol TM, BEMUs could be used to say Severn beach etc

Yes perhaps in future, although a BEMU to Severn Beach would still use Diesel for the majority of its service, and Cardiff to Bristol would require splitting of services and reversals. It's still a very small stretch that the majority of trains running through cannot use.

 

[Trainbike46]

Yes perhaps in future, although a BEMU to Severn Beach would still use Diesel for the majority of its service, and Cardiff to Bristol would require splitting of services and reversals. It's still a very small stretch that the majority of trains running through cannot use.

BEMUs or Battery Electric Multiple Units use batteries, not diesel, when there aren't wires (or another power source). Maybe you confused them with Bimodes, which is what most 80x are