After Koralmbahn opens, which trains will divert via this route

[Stephen Lee]

As shown in the poll.

 

[nwales58]

Will? There is a plan. @Austriantrain will know the details.

 

[Austriantrain]

Will? There is a plan. @Austriantrain will know the details.

Thank you.

The plans according to what is currently known:

- All Intercity-kind services (RJ etc) will run via the Koralm. That includes Graz - Salzburg - Germany services.
- Basically, from December 2025, what is planned is as follows:
- Hourly "slow" RJ line Wien - Graz - Klagenfurt - Villach, on to Salzburg every two hours and then to Germany; some extensions also to Lienz.
- Two-hourly "fast" RJX line Wien- Graz - Klagenfurt - Villach (stops only at Wien Meidling, Bruck/Mur, Graz, Klagenfurt) with extensions to Italy (currently planned: 3 Venezia, 1 Trieste; probably more when the Semmering
tunnel opens) and Slovenia.
- The RJX line will become hourly between Vienna and Graz once the Semmering tunnel opens. I suspect some intermediate-hour services might run before that, extending to Croatia. And I also suspect that before long, the RJX
line will be mostly hourly all the way to Villach.
- The Tauern line will get an hourly service, with every second hour (as mentioned) a train from Wien and towards Germany, the other one an Interregio.
- The Graz - Linz, Graz - Bischofshofen (-Wörgl) and Graz - Leoben - Klagenfurt line will be served by Interregio trains; two-hourly for the two former, hourly for the latter route.
- The only real exception to this "Koralmbahn-only" will be the Transalpin, which should continue on its current route through the Ennstal. Where the Nightjet will run, I do not know, but I suspect Koralm.
- There has been mentioning of Friday/Sunday Wien - Bruck/Mur - Leoben - Klagenfurt Intercity services, both to offer direct services for the many weekly travellers and to liberate capacity on Graz services. Seasonal services from Germany to Ennstal (Schladming etc) might also be possible for tourist traffic.

I don't expect too much third-party interest before the Semmering tunnel opens, but then it surely will happen and I would be very surprised if WESTbahn did not offer services.

 

[30907]

Thanks, much as expected.

I wonder if there would be a market for a daytime Zurich-Tauern-Klagenfurt-Graz which I suspect would need to be a RJ to go through the Koralm tunnel?
With my crayons out I would then divert Transalpin from Selzthal through the Gesäuse (gorge) to Amstetten and Vienna

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The current Vienna-Graz service mostly starts in Prague and the service is shared with ČD.
Will this service be extended via the Koralm line, or will it be cut back to Prague-Vienna?

 

[Austriantrain]

The current Vienna-Graz service mostly starts in Prague and the service is shared with ČD.
Will this service be extended via the Koralm line, or will it be cut back to Prague-Vienna?

The pre-published plan saw those trains as still running Praha - Graz, in the "fast" slot (in the interim hour, with only two-hourly RJX to Villach). I suspect these plans are still in flux, though, especially for the intervall between opening of the Koralm and the Semmering.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Thank you.

The plans according to what is currently known:

- All Intercity-kind services (RJ etc) will run via the Koralm. That includes Graz - Salzburg - Germany services.
- Basically, from December 2025, what is planned is as follows:
- Hourly "slow" RJ line Wien - Graz - Klagenfurt - Villach, on to Salzburg every two hours and then to Germany; some extensions also to Lienz.
- Two-hourly "fast" RJX line Wien- Graz - Klagenfurt - Villach (stops only at Wien Meidling, Bruck/Mur, Graz, Klagenfurt) with extensions to Italy (currently planned: 3 Venezia, 1 Trieste; probably more when the Semmering
tunnel opens) and Slovenia.
- The RJX line will become hourly between Vienna and Graz once the Semmering tunnel opens. I suspect some intermediate-hour services might run before that, extending to Croatia. And I also suspect that before long, the RJX
line will be mostly hourly all the way to Villach.
- The Tauern line will get an hourly service, with every second hour (as mentioned) a train from Wien and towards Germany, the other one an Interregio.
- The Graz - Linz, Graz - Bischofshofen (-Wörgl) and Graz - Leoben - Klagenfurt line will be served by Interregio trains; two-hourly for the two former, hourly for the latter route.
- The only real exception to this "Koralmbahn-only" will be the Transalpin, which should continue on its current route through the Ennstal. Where the Nightjet will run, I do not know, but I suspect Koralm.
- There has been mentioning of Friday/Sunday Wien - Bruck/Mur - Leoben - Klagenfurt Intercity services, both to offer direct services for the many weekly travellers and to liberate capacity on Graz services. Seasonal services from Germany to Ennstal (Schladming etc) might also be possible for tourist traffic.

I don't expect too much third-party interest before the Semmering tunnel opens, but then it surely will happen and I would be very surprised if WESTbahn did not offer services.

What about the Vienna - La Spezia NJ?

- Two-hourly "fast" RJX line Wien- Graz - Klagenfurt - Villach (stops only at Wien Meidling, Bruck/Mur, Graz, Klagenfurt) with extensions to Italy (currently planned: 3 Venezia, 1 Trieste; probably more when the Semmering
tunnel opens) and Slovenia.
- The RJX line will become hourly between Vienna and Graz once the Semmering tunnel opens. I suspect some intermediate-hour services might run before that, extending to Croatia. And I also suspect that before long, the RJX
line will be mostly hourly all the way to Villach.

Extend to Slovenia via Jesenice?
If the fast RJX is to extend to Italy and Slovenia, I think there is a need to order 1293 capable of 230km/h since the no of 1216 capable for Italy is too little.

 

[Austriantrain]

What about the Vienna - La Spezia NJ?

*Every* important train on the route will run via the Koralmbahn, for the simple fact that it then also directly serves Graz, Austria's second-largest city.

 

[ABB125]

If the fast RJX is to extend to Italy and Slovenia, I think there is a need to order 1293 capable of 230km/h since the no of 1216 capable for Italy is too little.

However, at the moment all ÖBB trains to Venice (I think it's all) are run top and tail, unless they're RailJets, with the second 1216 being added/removed at a suitable location near to Venice. With new RailJet stock, this will no longer be needed. Therefore, theoretically this should free up one (or two?) 1216s for use on strengthened services.
Related to this: are the 1216s which seem to live a life marooned in Italy (see also the one that does Villa Opicina to Trieste a few times a day) actually freight ones, which the passenger side of ÖBB "borrows" in times when they would otherwise be sat around doing nothing (waiting for the next freight service)? I don't know much about the operational arrangements of ÖBB, hence the question!
(This would of course have an impact on whether any 1216s would become free following the end of top and tail.)

 

[43096]

Thank you.

The plans according to what is currently known:

- All Intercity-kind services (RJ etc) will run via the Koralm. That includes Graz - Salzburg - Germany services.
- Basically, from December 2025, what is planned is as follows:
- Hourly "slow" RJ line Wien - Graz - Klagenfurt - Villach, on to Salzburg every two hours and then to Germany; some extensions also to Lienz.
- Two-hourly "fast" RJX line Wien- Graz - Klagenfurt - Villach (stops only at Wien Meidling, Bruck/Mur, Graz, Klagenfurt) with extensions to Italy (currently planned: 3 Venezia, 1 Trieste; probably more when the Semmering
tunnel opens) and Slovenia.
- The RJX line will become hourly between Vienna and Graz once the Semmering tunnel opens. I suspect some intermediate-hour services might run before that, extending to Croatia. And I also suspect that before long, the RJX
line will be mostly hourly all the way to Villach.
- The Tauern line will get an hourly service, with every second hour (as mentioned) a train from Wien and towards Germany, the other one an Interregio.
- The Graz - Linz, Graz - Bischofshofen (-Wörgl) and Graz - Leoben - Klagenfurt line will be served by Interregio trains; two-hourly for the two former, hourly for the latter route.
- The only real exception to this "Koralmbahn-only" will be the Transalpin, which should continue on its current route through the Ennstal. Where the Nightjet will run, I do not know, but I suspect Koralm.
- There has been mentioning of Friday/Sunday Wien - Bruck/Mur - Leoben - Klagenfurt Intercity services, both to offer direct services for the many weekly travellers and to liberate capacity on Graz services. Seasonal services from Germany to Ennstal (Schladming etc) might also be possible for tourist traffic.

I don't expect too much third-party interest before the Semmering tunnel opens, but then it surely will happen and I would be very surprised if WESTbahn did not offer services.

Thank you for that detailed response! Much better than guess work polls…

As someone who likes Austria and its railways, I’m looking forward to this opening.

 

[Austriantrain]

Thanks, much as expected.

I wonder if there would be a market for a daytime Zurich-Tauern-Klagenfurt-Graz which I suspect would need to be a RJ to go through the Koralm tunnel?

Might well work out. These trains in no small part serve Swiss holidaymakers - holidaying in Austria costs half of what it does in Switzerland, for very similar standards and lifestyle, so it's popular. As is train travel.

It wouldn't need a Railjet; other long-haul stock can and will run there. Needs to be ETCS-tractioned though.

With my crayons out I would then divert Transalpin from Selzthal through the Gesäuse (gorge) to Amstetten and Vienna

I would like that Thankfully there are now Intercity trains on that line again (if only on weekends).

The pre-published plan saw those trains as still running Praha - Graz, in the "fast" slot (in the interim hour, with only two-hourly RJX to Villach). I suspect these plans are still in flux, though, especially for the intervall between opening of the Koralm and the Semmering.

A further point: South of the Semmering, witth the opening of the Koralmbahn, the definitive timetable will already be in place (albeit with less frequency on the RJX service, since Wien - Graz will still be too slow to really be competitive to the car). North of the Semmering, everything will be more or less half an hour "off" the final timetable.

 

[43096]

However, at the moment all ÖBB trains to Venice (I think it's all) are run top and tail, unless they're RailJets, with the second 1216 being added/removed at a suitable location near to Venice. With new RailJet stock, this will no longer be needed. Therefore, theoretically this should free up one (or two?) 1216s for use on strengthened services.
Related to this: are the 1216s which seem to live a life marooned in Italy (see also the one that does Villa Opicina to Trieste a few times a day) actually freight ones, which the passenger side of ÖBB "borrows" in times when they would otherwise be sat around doing nothing (waiting for the next freight service)? I don't know much about the operational arrangements of ÖBB, hence the question!
(This would of course have an impact on whether any 1216s would become free following the end of top and tail.)

As I understand it the Austrian fleet (including 1216s) is sectorised but this is largely an accounting thing as diagrams can be mixed passenger/freight (with the exception of specialised fleets like the 1116 RailJet locos). It is quoted common to see a Cargo loco on a passenger train and vice versa - the loco fleet itself is actually owned by ÖBB Produktion, rather than the sectors.

 

[30907]

Might well work out. These trains in no small part serve Swiss holidaymakers - holidaying in Austria costs half of what it does in Switzerland, for very similar standards and lifestyle, so it's popular. As is train travel.

It wouldn't need a Railjet; other long-haul stock can and will run there. Needs to be ETCS-tractioned though.

True - I was more thinking that the Panoramawagen might not be permitted through the tunnel, and they would be ideal for the route. Of course, they won't last for ever

I would like that Thankfully there are now Intercity trains on that line again (if only on weekends).

Yes, I was pleased to travel on one 18months ago.

 

[Stephen Lee]

*Every* important train on the route will run via the Koralmbahn, for the simple fact that it then also directly serves Graz, Austria's second-largest city.

Even the Zürich - Graz NJ?

However, at the moment all ÖBB trains to Venice (I think it's all) are run top and tail, unless they're RailJets, with the second 1216 being added/removed at a suitable location near to Venice. With new RailJet stock, this will no longer be needed. Therefore, theoretically this should free up one (or two?) 1216s for use on strengthened services.
Related to this: are the 1216s which seem to live a life marooned in Italy (see also the one that does Villa Opicina to Trieste a few times a day) actually freight ones, which the passenger side of ÖBB "borrows" in times when they would otherwise be sat around doing nothing (waiting for the next freight service)? I don't know much about the operational arrangements of ÖBB, hence the question!
(This would of course have an impact on whether any 1216s would become free following the end of top and tail.)

I think ÖBB will retire 1142/1144s in both passenger and freight division while sweep away 1016/1116/1216s from RCC and replace them with 1293s or ES64F4/X4E leased from BRCE or Vectron MS hired from ELL/Railpool/BRCE. For passenger traffic, ÖBB can still order 1293s capable of 230km/h for services to Italy.

 

[43096]

For passenger traffic, ÖBB can still order 1293s capable of 230km/h for services to Italy.

The obvious first option is to use 1216s released from freight traffic before even thinking about 230km/h Vectrons.

 

[DerekC]

This is an interesting subject, which obviously many members know a lot about already. Can I ask (positive suggestion, no criticism intended) that a thread of this sort should start with a link to a description of the project, for those who are new to it. Wikipedia has what looks like a good one, which admittedly took me all of 15s to find, but it would be good if we started by reading a source that the OP recommends.

 

[Stephen Lee]

The obvious first option is to use 1216s released from freight traffic before even thinking about 230km/h Vectrons.

But the number of 1216s Authorized for Italy is too little. Would it be possible if Trenitalia can deploy ETR610 or ETR400 for services to Vienna via Koralm or to München via Brennerbahn?

 

[43096]

But the number of 1216s Authorized for Italy is too little. Would it be possible if Trenitalia can deploy ETR610 or ETR400 for services to Vienna via Koralm or to München via Brennerbahn?

Is it? How many do you think are needed? Once the ČD 230km/h Vectrons are delivered presumably the hired 1216.2 locos can be returned to ÖBB. They could then be converted to 1216.0, which gives an additional 7 locos.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Is it? How many do you think are needed? Once the ČD 230km/h Vectrons are delivered presumably the hired 1216.2 locos can be returned to ÖBB. They could then be converted to 1216.0, which gives an additional 7 locos.

Currently ÖBB has 25 1216.0s
1216.2s may be cascaded to other services, e.g. EN Chopin, although extension to Munich has extended its coverage but it still require change of loco in Breclav which makes the operational effectiveness questionable.

Is it? How many do you think are needed? Once the ČD 230km/h Vectrons are delivered presumably the hired 1216.2 locos can be returned to ÖBB. They could then be converted to 1216.0, which gives an additional 7 locos.

Why don’t convert the 183s cascaded from ALEX instead?

 

[43096]

Currently ÖBB has 25 1216.0s

I’m well aware how many they have.

1216.2s may be cascaded to other services, e.g. EN Chopin, although extension to Munich has extended its coverage but it still require change of loco in Breclav which makes the operational effectiveness questionable.

They would still have 10 1216.2s to cover three RailJets and whatever else is required.

Why don’t convert the 183s cascaded from ALEX instead?

Because they’re not available. Indications are that Widmer Rail Services have acquired them.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Even the Zürich - Graz NJ?


I think ÖBB will retire 1142/1144s in both passenger and freight division while sweep away 1016/1116/1216s from RCC and replace them with 1293s or ES64F4/X4E leased from BRCE or Vectron MS hired from ELL/Railpool/BRCE. For passenger traffic, ÖBB can still order 1293s capable of 230km/h for services to Italy.

Do many 1044/1144 remain?

 

[43096]

Do many 1044/1144 remain?

No 1044s left - they were all converted to 1144s. Plenty of 1144s still in traffic.

 

[nwales58]

... Wikipedia has what looks like a good one, which admittedly took me all of 15s to find, but it would be good if we started by reading a source that the OP recommends.

de.wikipedia has more detail than the english version (I can't be bothered to try to translate the german because in the past my wikipedia edits often got reverted), use an auto-translator if you don't read German. If you're interested in the tunnel, again the de.wiki page has more than the english.

The OeBB pages

Koralmbahn

Eine rasche und sichere Verbindung zwischen der Steiermark und Kärnten: Das schafft die Koralmbahn. Sie ist Teil der neuen Südstrecke in Österreich und eines der bedeutendsten Infrastrukturprojekte Europas.

infrastruktur.oebb.at

also have much more in the German version than in English.

In practice, the proposal that half the Graz-Wien service will be affected by the German network's random delay generator might affect what runs through west of Salzburg.

 

[Stephen Lee]

They would still have 10 1216.2s to cover three RailJets and whatever else is required.

15 1216.2s

Because they’re not available. Indications are that Widmer Rail Services have acquired them.

These locos should be converted to enable operation in Italy, Slovenia, Croatia or even to Czech Republic, Slovakia just like the ŠZ 541.1s which are capable for Germany, Austria, Italy, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia and Croatia. WRS can hire Vectrons from ELL/BRCE/Railpool instead.

 

[43096]

15 1216.2s

The current ÖBB 1216 fleet is:
1216 001-009/011-025/032 [25]
1216 141-148 [8]
1216 210/226-231/233-240/249/250 [17]

So if 7 come back from ČD and were converted to 1216.0s, that's the 10 1216.2s I stated

These locos should be converted to enable operation in Italy, Slovenia, Croatia or even to Czech Republic, Slovakia just like the ŠZ 541.1s which are capable for Germany, Austria, Italy, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia and Croatia. WRS can hire Vectrons from ELL/BRCE/Railpool instead.

In your world, maybe that's what "should" happen. But it ain't happening in the real world.

 

[Stephen Lee]

In your world, maybe that's what "should" happen. But it ain't happening in the real world.

Hahahahaha

No 1044s left - they were all converted to 1144s. Plenty of 1144s still in traffic.

Some 1144s were sold to Norway but to which operators?

 

[Jamesrob637]

No 1044s left - they were all converted to 1144s. Plenty of 1144s still in traffic.

Visually almost identical though I just call them the classic boxy 70s electrics. Will they be certified for this and future new railways, getting slightly back on topic?

 

[43096]

Visually almost identical though I just call them the classic boxy 70s electrics. Will they be certified for this and future new railways, getting slightly back on topic?

The modification from 1044 to 1144 was primarily about fitting WTB-ÖBB for multiple working (including with all Taurus variants and Vectrons) and push-pull. As this operates through the standard UIC-18 sockets there’s very little physical difference as a result.

 

[Austriantrain]

Visually almost identical though I just call them the classic boxy 70s electrics. Will they be certified for this and future new railways, getting slightly back on topic?

They won’t be fitted with ETCS and Koralm will be ETCS-only, so no.

 

[JonasB]

Some 1144s were sold to Norway but to which operators?

Grenland Rail AS has bought eight 1144s. They will be used for freight trains in Norway and Sweden.