SWR Class 458 to be retained

[DelW]

Off peak, there were 4 fast trains per hour to Guildford before COVID. 2 fast and 1 slow to Portsmouth, and 1 Haslemere stopper. Now we have 1 fast and 1 slow Portsmouth, and the Haslemere stopper.

Yes, I was referring to trains going through to Portsmouth. SWR originally promised to increase those to four per hour but never delivered, and now won't happen for the foreseeable future. One would hope that a return to two semifast Pompey, one slow Pompey and one Haslemere will happen at *some* point in the future, but who knows.

It's equally disappointing that the 458/4s won't (apparently) be replacing the 450s on Portsmouth services, which was the whole point of expensively refitting them. Continuing to rebuild them, only to store them and then scrap them, is just a ridiculous waste of resources. Whatever the contracts say, that should be re-negotiable.

 

[pompeyfan]

12 car testing has been occurring overnight on the Southampton - Havant route calling all stations, no idea on unit numbers though I’m afraid.

 

[swr444]

I see the sheppies are predominantly 455s today, my duty was meant to be 458s but I’ve got 455s instead…

 

[Towers]

I see the sheppies are predominantly 455s today, my duty was meant to be 458s but I’ve got 455s instead…

‘Safety wee’ before you set sail, then!

 

[WarrenTManager]

534 and 535 together today, 531 with 536. Just 532 that has to mix with a non ex-460.

8533 is currently having all the outstanding campaigns and mods and bits refitted that were borrowed as they arrive.

 

[swr444]

534 and 535 together today, 531 with 536. Just 532 that has to mix with a non ex-460.

8533 is currently having all the outstanding campaigns and mods and bits refitted that were borrowed as they arrive.

fingers crossed it can get back out soon, we need it!

 

[WarrenTManager]

12 car testing has been occurring overnight on the Southampton - Havant route calling all stations, no idea on unit numbers though I’m afraid.

Nights of 8th>9th and 9th>10th were 8423/8425/8428

 

[Invincible]

Last year the local Alton website had a story about overcrowding on the Alton line (probably especially at Woking and Surbiton?)

Hope that new trains will improve Alton to London Waterloo service

Campaigners for better rail services are expecting improvements on the Alton to London Waterloo line following South Western Railway’s announcement that new trains are on the way.

www.altonherald.com

“Railfuture Wessex branch members have noticed some Class 450 trains in the Wessex branch area are getting overcrowded as they are running with fewer carriages, presumably because some of the carriages are diverted to South Western Railway metro services which were supposed to be operated by now with the new Arterios.
“South Western Railway have said they plan to start bringing in the new trains but they acknowledge they will have to run some short-formed trains until the Arterios come into service later this year.
Click to expand...

So SWR are now considering using the refurbished 458s (12 car?) on the Alton and Basingstoke lines as a stopgap (rather than the PDL) until more Arterios rollout for the more inner London routes and more 450s can be released?
Also SWR have to lease the 458s till 2027.

 

[D7666]

Also SWR have to lease the 458s till 2027.

Does not mean (i) contract can't be cancelled or (ii) they can't be sub leased to another TOC.

442s were cancelled - everyone went on and on about how this that and all the other was signed and contracted for refurbishment retraction and operation therefore SWR must keep and operate them - but look what happened. Contracts can always be renegotiated, and SWR have proved it.

As far as sub-lease goes ............... think outside the box.

 

[Fincra5]

The o

Does not mean (i) contract can't be cancelled or (ii) they can't be sub leased to another TOC.

442s were cancelled - everyone went on and on about how this that and all the other was signed and contracted for refurbishment retraction and operation therefore SWR must keep and operate them - but look what happened. Contracts can always be renegotiated, and SWR have proved it.

As far as sub-lease goes ............... think outside the box.

The only sublease that could be realistic is Southeastern, for services operated by a guard.

Don't know if the 458s could be compatible with the current DOO equipment.

 

[43096]

Does not mean (i) contract can't be cancelled or (ii) they can't be sub leased to another TOC.

442s were cancelled - everyone went on and on about how this that and all the other was signed and contracted for refurbishment retraction and operation therefore SWR must keep and operate them - but look what happened. Contracts can always be renegotiated, and SWR have proved it.

As far as sub-lease goes ............... think outside the box.

They could also off-lease something else. The 444 and 450 fleet is protected by a Section 54 agreement to 23 April 2025, and SWR's current contract expires on 25 May 2025. The 458 lease runs until 21 August 2027. If you're wanting to trim the train fleet, then off-leasing some 450s at the end of the current contract is actually the easiest way of doing it - and may coincide nicely with the 701 roll-out releasing 450s off the Windsor lines.

 

[swr444]

They could also off-lease something else. The 444 and 450 fleet is protected by a Section 54 agreement to 23 April 2025, and SWR's current contract expires on 25 May 2025. The 458 lease runs until 21 August 2027. If you're wanting to trim the train fleet, then off-leasing some 450s at the end of the current contract is actually the easiest way of doing it - and may coincide nicely with the 701 roll-out releasing 450s off the Windsor lines.

Those 450s are needed to strengthen services back to 12 cars which are currently 4 or 8.

 

[43096]

Those 450s are needed to strengthen services back to 12 cars which are currently 4 or 8.

I think you have missed the point. The electric fleet as it will finally stand (all 701s in traffic, 444s, 450s, 458/4s) was sized for the higher number of services running (and planned) pre-pandemic. There is precious little sign of SWR even attempting to match current demand, let alone increasing capacity. There therefore must be a surplus in the fleet, which is why non-use of 458/4s is talked about. As a starting point, off-leasing 28 x 450 would deal with that over-capacity.

There would be two groups of surplus: Windsor lines units released by 701s and whatever is released if the 458/4s come into service. Both are not needed for capacity based on what SWR are currently running.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Those 450s are needed to strengthen services back to 12 cars which are currently 4 or 8.

Sure, but if the 458s do end up used then there will be very little use for 127 450s. Say they’re used on Alton and Basingstokes as suggested above, then you have the 450s for Portsmouth via Basingstoke and Guildford (and shared with 444s), and that’s all they’re needed for out of Waterloo. Then there’s the four car Winchester Bournemouth, Ascot Aldershot, Guildford Farnham and Lymington services. That’d then be it.

 

[swr444]

Sure, but if the 458s do end up used then there will be very little use for 127 450s. Say they’re used on Alton and Basingstokes as suggested above, then you have the 450s for Portsmouth via Basingstoke and Guildford (and shared with 444s), and that’s all they’re needed for out of Waterloo. Then there’s the four car Winchester Bournemouth, Ascot Aldershot, Guildford Farnham and Lymington services. That’d then be it.

You also have the soton stoppers during the peak, the 12 car peak time woking to waterloo services (unless these go to 701s). A lot of them need the proper refurb which was postponed, and they're being worked to the bone at the moment which is very clearly visible with lots of faults.

 

[pompeyfan]

Part of the supposed reason for not introducing the 458/4s is the crew cost to train up the depots. If you off lease a chunk of the 450 fleet you still incur the cost of training multiple depots in a relatively small fleet. I understand that the 458s will still see regular mainline use as ECS moves even after the introduction project, just to keep the wheels turning.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Part of the supposed reason for not introducing the 458/4s is the crew cost to train up the depots. If you off lease a chunk of the 450 fleet you still incur the cost of training multiple depots in a relatively small fleet. I understand that the 458s will still see regular mainline use as ECS moves even after the introduction project, just to keep the wheels turning.

The industry desperately needs a national rolling stock strategy to deal with this nonsense let alone all the other classes that are afflicted.

 

[RealTrains07]

The industry desperately needs a national rolling stock strategy to deal with this nonsense let alone all the other classes that are afflicted.

Yes and something that would help with this issue for SWR? Actually making an effort to increase capacity and restore some of services lost during covid

A rolling stock strategy also needs to take into account if new trains are being ordered but the demands change so less trains are needed then orders and/or contracts should have had the chance to be adjusted.

Exactly the issue with the 458s and possibly the 701s. SWR should have assessed whether there is actual need for as many trains as they have asked to be built / retractioned and refurbished

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think you have missed the point. The electric fleet as it will finally stand (all 701s in traffic, 444s, 450s, 458/4s) was sized for the higher number of services running (and planned) pre-pandemic. There is precious little sign of SWR even attempting to match current demand, let alone increasing capacity. There therefore must be a surplus in the fleet, which is why non-use of 458/4s is talked about. As a starting point, off-leasing 28 x 450 would deal with that over-capacity.

There would be two groups of surplus: Windsor lines units released by 701s and whatever is released if the 458/4s come into service. Both are not needed for capacity based on what SWR are currently running.

Makes me think. With the Class 450 contract coming up for renewal before the class 458/4 contract finishes there is a possibility that this puts SWR in a good bargaining position. I seem to recall the lease of the 450s (and 444s ?) is quite expensive compared to other fleets of EMUs......

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Yes and something that would help with this issue for SWR? Actually making an effort to increase capacity and restore some of services lost during covid

A rolling stock strategy also needs to take into account if new trains are being ordered but the demands change so less trains are needed then orders and/or contracts should have had the chance to be adjusted.

Exactly the issue with the 458s and possibly the 701s. SWR should have assessed whether there is actual need for as many trains as they have asked to be built / retractioned and refurbished

And any strategy needs to take into account crew training. SWR has a lot of crew to train on 701s so they don’t want to be taking crew off working trains that are needed to provide that capacity you mention to learn 458s.

As for contracts that allow numbers of trains to be built/leased to be changed are possible but as this increases risk for the leasing company will come at higher price due to lack of certainty.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2024 ==

Makes me think. With the Class 450 contract coming up for renewal before the class 458/4 contract finishes there is a possibility that this puts SWR in a good bargaining position. I seem to recall the lease of the 450s (and 444s ?) is quite expensive compared to other fleets of EMUs......

Though any lease saving may well be outweighed by the training costs and changes to cabs required by ASLEF for them to enter traffic.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Though any lease saving may well be outweighed by the training costs and changes to cabs required by ASLEF for them to enter traffic.

Do we know for sure that deciding a cab isn’t swish enough is legally reasonable grounds for striking? Otherwise they can say they’ll be boycotting the 458/4s all they want, but if SWR book them and the answer is no, there won’t be anything they can do.

 

[Fincra5]

And any strategy needs to take into account crew training. SWR has a lot of crew to train on 701s so they don’t want to be taking crew off working trains that are needed to provide that capacity you mention to learn 458s.

As for contracts that allow numbers of trains to be built/leased to be changed are possible but as this increases risk for the leasing company will come at higher price due to lack of certainty.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2024 ==



Though any lease saving may well be outweighed by the training costs and changes to cabs required by ASLEF for them to enter traffic.

Unless the cab is drastically altered, a briefing should suffice for any cab alterations.

SWR could feasibly delay 458s to other routes and keep them on their current ground for now, as other than the fact 1 coach is missing and they've been regeared slightly, has anything changed? (Minus the Paint Job )

 

[Snow1964]

Do we know for sure that deciding a cab isn’t swish enough is legally reasonable grounds for striking? Otherwise they can say they’ll be boycotting the 458/4s all they want, but if SWR book them and the answer is no, there won’t be anything they can do.

Like all strikes, under current legislation, if it is raised, and the required majority in a ballot obtained for action then yes action as mandated can be taken.

If anyone would actually call a ballot over fading paint and worn upholstery, and get enough votes to actually meet taking action threshold is different question.

But since they took over in 2017, 6-7 years ago, SWR have made a complete mess of any rolling stock upgrade and replacement policy. About the only thing they have achieved is increase the average age of the fleet by about 6 years.

 

[Goldfish62]

Like all strikes, under current legislation, if it is raised, and the required majority in a ballot obtained for action then yes action as mandated can be taken.

If anyone would actually call a ballot over fading paint and worn upholstery, and get enough votes to actually meet taking action threshold is different question.

But since they took over in 2017, 6-7 years ago, SWR have made a complete mess of any rolling stock upgrade and replacement policy. About the only thing they have achieved is increase the average age of the fleet by about 6 years.

Although on the Class 701 thread it was claimed that Claire Mann stated last week that SWR will not be using the 458s so training and ASLEF views would appear to be irrelevant.

I didn't probe the claim further as was it was complete off-topic.

 

[WarrenTManager]

Overnight on the 10>11th 8425 made three Q trips on the Lymington branch.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Although on the Class 701 thread it was claimed that Claire Mann stated last week that SWR will not be using the 458s so training and ASLEF views would appear to be irrelevant.

I didn't probe the claim further as was it was complete off-topic.

Givem them to SE they've proven very adept at integrating the 707s without any fuss

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Deleted. Out of context.

 

[slicedbread]

it was claimed that Claire Mann stated last week that SWR will not be using the 458s so training and ASLEF views would appear to be irrelevant

Although if ASLEF have black balled the 458s in 4 carriage 100mph guise I guess that might be part of the reason not to use them.

It still seems an odd way to run a railway, to extentend the lease on your units on the proviso they are reconfigured, take delivery 2/3 years later and never use them. I guess I'd never make a railway manager as I can't get my head around it.

 

[Peter Sarf]

And any strategy needs to take into account crew training. SWR has a lot of crew to train on 701s so they don’t want to be taking crew off working trains that are needed to provide that capacity you mention to learn 458s.

As for contracts that allow numbers of trains to be built/leased to be changed are possible but as this increases risk for the leasing company will come at higher price due to lack of certainty.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2024 ==



Though any lease saving may well be outweighed by the training costs and changes to cabs required by ASLEF for them to enter traffic.

Training is probably the big issue. No desire to train staff on 458s when they are busy introducing 701s at last. If the 458/4s did go to the Portsmouth direct there would be training as I suppose the current drivers for the Portsmouth direct route have never needed to sign 458s ?.

Although if ASLEF have black balled the 458s in 4 carriage 100mph guise I guess that might be part of the reason not to use them.

It still seems an odd way to run a railway, to extentend the lease on your units on the proviso they are reconfigured, take delivery 2/3 years later and never use them. I guess I'd never make a railway manager as I can't get my head around it.

I imagine the SWR management might have expected the 458s in suburban 5car guise to be redundant by now due to the expected completion of the class 701 roll out. So the 458/4s would have then been ideal for the Portsmouth direct (no doubt temporarily covered by the 442s). Then along came er NO 701s. And Covid will have decimated the requirement for so many trains, particularly so on SWR it seems.

 

[Doomotron]

Givem them to SE they've proven very adept at integrating the 707s without any fuss

While I doubt they would go to SE (I personally believe it to be more likely that SWR will keep the 458s they re-leased including the minimum amount of refurbished units for use on existing 158 services), if they did move to Southeastern, SWR would effectively have become a middle man for SE to get new trains.

I believe this conversation may end up being better off as a thread of its own, but SE for the 458s only makes partial sense to me. There's the question of where to store and maintain them since the SE network is already low on space, how it fits into the overall fleet strategy and crucially what to do with them. The refurbished ones could theoretically be used on the longer-distance mainline services but would require the other units to be modified for that purpose and I don't know if Southeastern would be willing to do that. Alternatively they could be put on metro or inner-suburban services but then the refurbishment really would need to be undone, as the interiors and gearing would be inappropriate for those services. Then there's what to do with the cabs and the potential of the other seven 458s, but I'm not sure what to think about those.