Aslef announce strike dates

[HamworthyGoods]

Just the SWR mainline? does that mean suburban and Windsor will be operating normally?

Mainline drivers as opposed to depot drivers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jan 2024 ==

Nothing on regional routes.

This time could be different with Minimum Service Levels.

 

[class 9]

If your only aim is to disrupt people's journeys then yes, it worked well. It didn't work at all in helping achieve the aims of the dispute.

But yes, I take your about what else is ASLEF to do. While the weapon of industrial action is clearly completely ineffective at the moment it's their only weapon.

I only see one way of breaking the deadlock. The mantra from the government is constantly to put the rejected offer to the members. On that basis it's refusing to talk further. It undoubtedly knows what the outcome would be, but it's a convenient excuse not to engage further with ASLEF. ASLEF should swallow its pride and put the offer to the members. When it's rejected that calls the government's bluff and they will no longer be able to say that the ,members haven't had a say. That unlocks the possibility of reopening talks.

Some might say why should ASLEF do that? I would say if it has a chance of reopening talks then surely its worth it after all this time. It seems clear than strikes every couple of months aren't going to work.

Problem with this is that the ASLEF constitution would need to be rewritten, it says that only offers that are acceptable to EC can be put out to members and the last offer was appalling, hence the rejection.
Also if it was put to members, with the inevitable rejection would result in the government making a miniscule change and demanding that being put out to members and this would repeat again and again, thus putting the union under extreme financial pressure( ballots ain't cheap)

 

[dk1]

This time could be different with Minimum Service Levels.

Was wondering that. Should be interesting.

 

[bramling]

I'm sure government's client media are working on such headlines now.

Is anyone actually listening to this government now? It’s increasingly looking like a wipeout at the next election, and there are now starting to be questions asked as to whether Sunak will last that long unchallenged. For some bizarre reason Truss chose to refer to unions multiple times during her last PMQs, which kind of illustrates how the priorities of this government doesn’t seem to align with what voters expected.

 

[Ashfordian6]

If your only aim is to disrupt people's journeys then yes, it worked well. It didn't work at all in helping achieve the aims of the dispute.

But yes, I take your about what else is ASLEF to do. While the weapon of industrial action is clearly completely ineffective at the moment it's their only weapon.

I only see one way of breaking the deadlock. The mantra from the government is constantly to put the rejected offer to the members. On that basis it's refusing to talk further. It undoubtedly knows what the outcome would be, but it's a convenient excuse not to engage further with ASLEF. ASLEF should swallow its pride and put the offer to the members. When it's rejected that calls the government's bluff and they will no longer be able to say that the ,members haven't had a say. That unlocks the possibility of reopening talks.

Some might say why should ASLEF do that? I would say if it has a chance of reopening talks then surely its worth it after all this time. It seems clear than strikes every couple of months aren't going to work.

ASLEF have held two ballots since the last offer was made by the Government. Members had their say on the offer via the ballot, which from the numbers looks like it was comprehensively rejected twice.

ASLEF could definitely do better with the media presence and calling out this disinformation from the Government.

 

[brad465]

Given how close we are to the election, I expect there will either be a quick breakthrough in the next 2-3 months if the Government think there is merit in settling it before then, or more likely nothing will be settled until after the election, where no strikes take place during a campaign (assuming ASLEF and other sector unions realise they won't get anywhere during this time).

 

[Ashfordian6]

It is a really good way of just keeping the dispute alive, and gets a whole week of disruption while only losing each member one day's pay.

Yes, and keeps the dispute in the news for the whole period rather than just a single day, and further highlights to the electorate how incompetent this Government are

Even those previously in denial on how incompetent this Government are will now questioning if they is the root of the problems...

 

[whoosh]

Slightly selfishly, that doesn't appear to affect any of my upcoming Jan/Feb travel. Still annoying though, and Aslef should have gone the way of RMT ages ago.

Confused as to what you mean?

By agreeing the same deal that was put to RMT at the end of last year?

But which hasn't been put to ASLEF. So how do they agree to a deal which hasn't been put to them?

 

[MikeWM]

Nothing on regional routes.

I meant on overtime ban days. Obviously GA is badly affected on all-out strike days too.

 

[dk1]

I meant on overtime ban days. Obviously GA is badly affected on all-out strike days too.

Ahh yes fair enough. At GA our traincrew recruitment and training has been excellent even during the pandemic.

 

[Goldfish62]

ASLEF have held two ballots since the last offer was made by the Government. Members had their say on the offer via the ballot, which from the numbers looks like it was comprehensively rejected twice.

I had tried to be careful in explaining my rationale.

Whatever you, I or anyone else think the government is correct that the members have not been balloted on the specific offer. That was not the question on the ballot paper. That's a fact that no one can deny and is the government's mantra for refusing to talk further.

It was just my thoughts on a way to try to break the deadlock, that's all.

 

[Ashfordian6]

I had tried to be careful in explaining my rationale.

Whatever you, I or anyone else think the government is correct that the members have not been balloted on the specific offer. That was not the question on the ballot paper. That's a fact that no one can deny and is the government's mantra for refusing to talk further.

It was just my thoughts on a way to try to break the deadlock, that's all.

Had the members voted No in the ballot to continue the action it would have in effect meant they wanted to accept the offer.

Their voting has twice rejected the offer!

That clarifies this matter rather than the twisted manipulation attempt of this Government.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Confused as to what you mean?

By agreeing the same deal that was put to RMT at the end of last year?

But which hasn't been put to ASLEF. So how do they agree to a deal which hasn't been put to them?

I don't mean that the ASLEF deal was the same as the RMT one in terms of raw money, but at least RMT had an offer and accepted it (albeit after much fighting). ASLEF should have done the same as their offer was far from stingy. Something about having one's cake and eating it too!

 

[skyhigh]

ASLEF should have done the same as their offer was far from stingy. Something about having one's cake and eating it too!

The strings that were attached were awful.

 

[class 9]

'Far from stingy' .....nonsense, it was a pile of crap!
The pay aspect of it on its own probably would have been acceptable, but the decimation of T & Cs certainly wasn't.
Also a one size fits all offer to numerous companies all with massively differing salaries & conditions could never work

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

. You say the same thing every time, including about the RMT dispute, and things changed there!

ASLEF’s strategy is to apply pressure “little and often”, but not overdo it to keep the membership whole financially, and run the cl

Based on the last few overtime bans, GTR chop about 50% out of their timetable and then seriously struggle to run most of what is left. At weekends they barely run anything, and nothing runs at all after mid-afternoon.

By contrast, GA seem to manage to run >95% of their usual service, with just a handful of cancellations.

GTR aren't 50% short of train crew and by now they should have better optimised their offering vs establishment levels but they haven't as probably don't have any slack in the planning team so revert to the slash and burn service. About time DafT called them out.

 

[JonathanH]

About time DafT called them out.

How exactly are DfT going to call GTR out on the service offering? Do you think GTR are acting without DfT approval on the service offered?

 

[Howardh]

Does this mean the rest of February will be clear of strikes/overtime bans etc? Also note that the 40% minimum service on strike days is still unclear (what happens if it's forced but they can't provide that service?)

 

[whoosh]

I don't mean that the ASLEF deal was the same as the RMT one in terms of raw money, but at least RMT had an offer and accepted it (albeit after much fighting). ASLEF should have done the same as their offer was far from stingy. Something about having one's cake and eating it too!

The reason the latest offer to RMT was accepted, was because the 'year 2' element was deferred and will go to individual TOCs to be negotiated (both in terms of pay% and any changes to terms and conditions).

The lack of this previously (year 2 having previously being a 'one size fits all' percentage rise and changes to terms and conditions - where some TOCs would not have any changes but still get the same percentage rise) was the sticking point in previous offers to the RMT.

This is also the sticking point in the offer to ASLEF, which deliberately hasn't been changed to be negotiated at TOC level in order to provoke further strikes - so the wonderful government can ride to the rescue and save the General public with it's Minimum Service Levels. [But let's not mention that there wouldn't be any strikes had this all been negotiated in good faith without a whole year <2022> going by without any talks with ASLEF.]

 

[86246]

I meant on overtime ban days. Obviously GA is badly affected on all-out strike days too.

Indeed. It is when travelling on some other parts of the country you appreciate how lucky we are with GA.

Although last month saw the first overtime ban on a Sunday which meant some branches didn't have a service so presmably similar will apply on the 4th February.

 

[class 9]

Does this mean the rest of February will be clear of strikes/overtime bans etc? Also note that the 40% minimum service on strike days is still unclear (what happens if it's forced but they can't provide that service?)

Not sure of the effect of the minimum service bill will have, AFAIK the TOCs weren't even consulted on it before it went through parliament.

 

[dk1]

ASLEF should have done the same as their offer was far from stingy. Something about having one's cake and eating it too!

No chance.

 

[Howardh]

Not sure of the effect of the minimum service bill will have, AFAIK the TOCs weren't even consulted on it before it went through parliament.

Yes, it's an interesting one, especially if one of the staff on a train is off sick and it can't then run, and the service goes below the minimum level. Can they force a striker to go in to get to that minimum service?? Would that in itself be illegal??

 

[Deafdoggie]

I'd be careful what you wish for. I know our (Conservative) MP is inundated with people demanding the government stops bailing out the railway and cuts all funding. They see the cancelling of HS2 an excellent thing and want the government to "stop wasting money" on railways. The strikes, according to these people, prove the railways aren't needed as the country carries on perfectly well on strike days. Indeed most people couldn't tell you what days trains were on strike.
Interestingly the Labour candidate can't stand further back from commiting. Anyone expecting Labour to spend money on resolving the dispute is likely to be very disappointed. Obviously it's different in different parts of the country, but round here, any party that promises more money to the railways won't be elected. Those that promise to cut spending guarantee themselves victory.

 

[AverageJoe]

I really don’t understand this forum sometimes.

The only people on here I would expect are current rail employees, rail enthusiasts or those looking to work on the rail.

Why is there so much negativity about the strikes?

Drivers have not had a pay rise in a long time and what was offered was a step backwards if you take the t&c’s in to consideration.

Let’s just show some support to those working on the rail and hopefully it can be running smoothly in the near future.

 

[class 9]

I'd be careful what you wish for. I know our (Conservative) MP is inundated with people demanding the government stops bailing out the railway and cuts all funding. They see the cancelling of HS2 an excellent thing and want the government to "stop wasting money" on railways. The strikes, according to these people, prove the railways aren't needed as the country carries on perfectly well on strike days. Indeed most people couldn't tell you what days trains were on strike.
Interestingly the Labour candidate can't stand further back from commiting. Anyone expecting Labour to spend money on resolving the dispute is likely to be very disappointed. Obviously it's different in different parts of the country, but round here, any party that promises more money to the railways won't be elected. Those that promise to cut spending guarantee themselves victory.

Inundated?? Says who? I bet its him.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Inundated?? Says who? I bet its him.

No. The office staff who have to reply to them. Obviously you don't have to believe it, but it doesn't stop it being true.

 

[Dan G]

Yes, and keeps the dispute in the news for the whole period rather than just a single day, and further highlights to the electorate how incompetent this Government are

Even those previously in denial on how incompetent this Government are will now questioning if they is the root of the problems...

Tbh I don't remember the December strikes being "in the news".

But the RMT eventually won a better pay deal without the T&C changes, didn't they? So I guess striking ultimately worked for them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jan 2024 ==

I really don’t understand this forum sometimes.

The only people on here I would expect are current rail employees, rail enthusiasts or those looking to work on the rail.

Why is there so much negativity about the strikes?

Drivers have not had a pay rise in a long time and what was offered was a step backwards if you take the t&c’s in to consideration.

Let’s just show some support to those working on the rail and hopefully it can be running smoothly in the near future.

Well, I'm not aware of any challenges around recruiting drivers, and by any measure they're well paid. So it can be argued that no pay rises in however long it's been is bringing pay back to the level it should have been before over-generous awards were made (presumably under the threat of strikes!).

There are people who oppose strikes on this forum because we like trains and train services, and we quite like seeing them run (and not driving customers away into cars).

 

[MikeWM]

There are people who oppose strikes on this forum because we like trains and train services, and we quite like seeing them run

Indeed so - and bearing in mind that, other than a few months in early 2022, it has now been almost 4 years since we've had 'normal' service on the railways.

Personally I have a lot of sympathy for those who want a reasonable pay rise without having to agree to ludicrous changes in T&Cs. But that doesn't change the fact that as a passenger - in particular a passenger in GTR land - strikes and overtime bans make living my life more tedious and difficult, and sometimes that is frustrating.

 

[JonathanH]

But the RMT eventually won a better pay deal without the T&C changes, didn't they? So I guess striking ultimately worked for them.

The RMT accepted the 2022 pay award, which eventually came without the T&C changes. The 2023 pay award is still outstanding but there is a truce for the time being. Once any offer on that is rejected, the RMT can recommence industrial action.

Essentially, they just had to accept something, which was done by splitting up the outstanding matters.

Well, I'm not aware of any challenges around recruiting drivers, and by any measure they're well paid. So it can be argued that no pay rises in however long it's been is bringing pay back to the level it should have been before over-generous awards were made (presumably under the threat of strikes!).

That is just a 'race to the bottom' argument, which is where a lot of debate on pay levels of different people has reached.

The sad thing is that the UK's lack of productivity means that the economy doesn't support improvements in living standards for the least well off.