GWR fleet procurement

[Clarence Yard]

The 175 musical chairs competition is coming to an end and GWR are likely to be the ones without a chair. There is really no other “quick” option for sorting out the passenger overcrowding issue and the HST replacement conundrum. The 158’s are not going to be available in time and Northern increasingly seem to be the eventually recipients of that fleet.

Basing the 175 fleet in the West (presumably LA) for that to happen also puts the 80x sets back onto boosting formations on services to London and allows most Cardiff-Portsmouth diagrams to go load 4 or 5 x 158, with 4 or 5 x 16x for the rest. I presume going 175 on services like the Barney would be part of this idea.

I strongly suspect that is the plan in the mind of MH but the question is will it work (do they have enough sets to do it) and, given it is going to add costs, will the DfT go for it?

 

[DelW]

Hasn’t the timetable on the North Downs been changed in a way that 769s are excluded?

Could a few be based at Exeter for the Devon Metro services?

Personally I think it could be 175s on Portsmouth services and maybe Cardiff - Taunton etc.

Do 175s have any form of SDO?

The NDL timetable has been rewritten to a more even 2tph rather than the "sort of 3tph with one removed" that was in place for a while, but I *think* it's still based on 769 speeds, with a further modification planned.

I wasn't necessarily suggesting the NDL for the 769s though, they could go elsewhere.

 

[pompeyfan]

Wasn’t there also the issue of GWR ASLEF rejecting the cabs of 769 unless significant money was spent? Or was that resolved / a non issue?

 

[DelW]

Wasn’t there also the issue of GWR ASLEF rejecting the cabs of 769 unless significant money was spent? Or was that resolved / a non issue?

IIRC it was said that had been resolved, or at least was capable of resolution without major changes. As always, from the outside these things are unclear, and with the current state of industrial relations, it could possibly reappear.

Regarding the timetable, RTT still shows NDL services as "pathed as diesel locomotive trailing load 769 tonnes", which was the rather odd identifier used for 769s.

 

[baza585]

The 175 musical chairs competition is coming to an end and GWR are likely to be the ones without a chair. There is really no other “quick” option for sorting out the passenger overcrowding issue and the HST replacement conundrum. The 158’s are not going to be available in time and Northern increasingly seem to be the eventually recipients of that fleet.

Basing the 175 fleet in the West (presumably LA) for that to happen also puts the 80x sets back onto boosting formations on services to London and allows most Cardiff-Portsmouth diagrams to go load 4 or 5 x 158, with 4 or 5 x 16x for the rest. I presume going 175 on services like the Barney would be part of this idea.

I strongly suspect that is the plan in the mind of MH but the question is will it work (do they have enough sets to do it) and, given it is going to add costs, will the DfT go for it?

Presumably basing them in the West gets round the Fratton outstation issues. It seems 175s need more TLC than older units.

 

[RPI]

The 175 musical chairs competition is coming to an end and GWR are likely to be the ones without a chair. There is really no other “quick” option for sorting out the passenger overcrowding issue and the HST replacement conundrum. The 158’s are not going to be available in time and Northern increasingly seem to be the eventually recipients of that fleet.

Basing the 175 fleet in the West (presumably LA) for that to happen also puts the 80x sets back onto boosting formations on services to London and allows most Cardiff-Portsmouth diagrams to go load 4 or 5 x 158, with 4 or 5 x 16x for the rest. I presume going 175 on services like the Barney would be part of this idea.

I strongly suspect that is the plan in the mind of MH but the question is will it work (do they have enough sets to do it) and, given it is going to add costs, will the DfT go for it?

I think Barnstaple/Okehampton would be the best place, mostly end to end journeys so the Intercity style layout would work, could free 158's for Cardiff-Pompey. As a slight aside but maybe relevant, and @Clarence Yard would know more than me, but it seems a renewed interest towards more GWR services running towards Axminster has popped up in the past few weeks, this tied with extra stock that will be needed for the Cornwall Metro may point to playing a part in any procurement of additional stock?

 

[The exile]

Are the two Castle sets still stored on the WSR? That would surely be the quickest (partial) fix of the lot.

 

[43096]

Are the two Castle sets still stored on the WSR? That would surely be the quickest (partial) fix of the lot.

No, they went back to Laira for return to service.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Yeah to be fair are 175s any cheaper than being back some 2+4 HSTs? Far less training with that, some drivers would need a refresher but no out and out brand new training course required.

 

[fgwrich]

Are the two Castle sets still stored on the WSR? That would surely be the quickest (partial) fix of the lot.

No, they went back when the big XC clear out took place.

 

[FGW_DID]

Of course, all those GWR liveried, newly refurbished, AC capable, 769/9s were put into storage (and are presumably still languishing somewhere) because someone decided that GWR didn't need them ...


769/9s are available now ... assuming they're still stored in usable condition.

The 769s have a more suitable layout than 175s for routes with high passenger turnover at intermediate stations (as well as being painted the right colour!)

Admittedly the reliability factor is an unknown, but Northern seem to have got their version working reasonably well now, and it was said at the time that Reading had got the GWR ones to a satisfactory level on test runs. Supposedly the main reason for not using them was that GWR could manage adequately without them, which doesn't seem to have worked out well.

The NDL timetable has been rewritten to a more even 2tph rather than the "sort of 3tph with one removed" that was in place for a while, but I *think* it's still based on 769 speeds, with a further modification planned.

I wasn't necessarily suggesting the NDL for the 769s though, they could go elsewhere.

Nobody decided GWR didn’t need them, DfT were after cuts and as they were soon to be off lease and as there were no drivers trained in their use, the 769 was an easy target. Keep the unused 769s and cuts would have to be made elsewhere!

Stored in usable condition is debatable, even when they were on the books there were only the regular 6 at Reading and Oxford that had been gotten to a decent condition and even then there were often problems with them as they weren’t being regularly used and just sat idle taking up valuable siding space. The odd run down to Gatwick 3 times a week didn’t really do much to counter that and as we saw there were quite a few failures on those runs.

The biggest issue is that there were never any drivers trained to drive them. The aforementioned cab issues had been resolved and training was due to commence but the current IA put paid to that starting. As the IA is still rumbling on there’s no chance of any training taking place. Also those few that were 769 competent (a small number of depot drivers & training managers) will no longer have a valid competency. Same goes for the technicians.

So whilst they are probably available now, they wouldn’t be running in service for a long while!

 

[Lurcheroo]

Do 175s have any form of SDO?

They have TUDI : second Unit Door Isolation. So if you have a 2+2 car the guard can prevent doors on the 2nd unit from being released. But that’s as much as they have.

 

[dgl]

The 175 musical chairs competition is coming to an end and GWR are likely to be the ones without a chair. There is really no other “quick” option for sorting out the passenger overcrowding issue and the HST replacement conundrum. The 158’s are not going to be available in time and Northern increasingly seem to be the eventually recipients of that fleet.

Basing the 175 fleet in the West (presumably LA) for that to happen also puts the 80x sets back onto boosting formations on services to London and allows most Cardiff-Portsmouth diagrams to go load 4 or 5 x 158, with 4 or 5 x 16x for the rest. I presume going 175 on services like the Barney would be part of this idea.

I strongly suspect that is the plan in the mind of MH but the question is will it work (do they have enough sets to do it) and, given it is going to add costs, will the DfT go for it?

I bet GWR are jubilant that they might get 175's as they liked the 180's so much
But then again if the government want a home for them and they can be somewhat reliable then it's more carriages at least

 

[The exile]

I bet GWR are jubilant that they might get 175's as they liked the 180's so much
But then again if the government want a home for them and they can be somewhat reliable then it's more carriages at least

Presumably the uk government can theoretically wash their hands of the 175s - they’re a Welsh problem!

 

[Dan G]

The biggest issue is that there were never any drivers trained to drive them. The aforementioned cab issues had been resolved and training was due to commence but the current IA put paid to that starting. As the IA is still rumbling on there’s no chance of any training taking place. Also those few that were 769 competent (a small number of depot drivers & training managers) will no longer have a valid competency. Same goes for the technicians.

So whilst they are probably available now, they wouldn’t be running in service for a long while!

So presumably training drivers on 175s (or 68s+Mk5s) would be impossible too.

 

[DelW]

Nobody decided GWR didn’t need them, DfT were after cuts and as they were soon to be off lease and as there were no drivers trained in their use, the 769 was an easy target. Keep the unused 769s and cuts would have to be made elsewhere!

I did have in mind that the "someone" might well have been within the DfT or even the Treasury, rather than GWR.

I'm grateful for your insight into the other points as well. I'm still disappointed that they never made it onto the North Downs, but who knows, if they'd done so and proved unreliable, I might have been wishing for the Turbos to come back by now .

 

[pompeyfan]

They have TUDI : second Unit Door Isolation. So if you have a 2+2 car the guard can prevent doors on the 2nd unit from being released. But that’s as much as they have.

I had a feeling they might have something along those lines, this would allow 6 car formations if required. Whether or not there would be enough units for 6 car operation is another discussion.

 

[RPI]

Turning it totally on its head, a significant number of 175's could see some 150's retired.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Turning it totally on its head, a significant number of 175's could see some 150's retired.

Far lovelier environment for the customers in the West too. Loved as the 150s are down in GWR land (and yours are definitely the nicest inside too), here in Wales, the 150 were always the booby prize with the 175s seen as the comfortable flagship. I’m sure they’d be well received in the South West.

 

[RPI]

Far lovelier environment for the customers in the West too. Loved as the 150s are down in GWR land (and yours are definitely the nicest inside too), here in Wales, the 150 were always the booby prize with the 175s seen as the comfortable flagship. I’m sure they’d be well received in the South West.

A lot of speculation here! But in an ideal world they'd go on Cardiff-Pompey, with everything else filtering west. As much as I love 150's, they are showing their age now, could even put them on the Cornish branches in retro liveries as "Heritage" units now lol

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

A lot of speculation here! But in an ideal world they'd go on Cardiff-Pompey, with everything else filtering west.

I’ll happily, happily go for that. I do the journey in its entirety every month, and 175s are my favourite DMUs where a 22x doesn’t count, so for selfish reasons - bring it on

 

[12LDA28C]

If (and it’s a very big if) the Mk 5s went to Chiltern could that free up Turbos quicker than TfW sprinters?

Except that the Mk5s may well only replace the current Mk3 stock which would not free up any 165s, and in any event this would be unlikely to happen until May 2025 at the earliest, if at all.

 

[Express380]

I’ll happily, happily go for that. I do the journey in its entirety every month, and 175s are my favourite DMUs where a 22x doesn’t count, so for selfish reasons - bring it on

And for selfish reasons on my part I'd love to see them on Cardiff to Penzance! But we wait and see

 

[The exile]

Except that the Mk5s may well only replace the current Mk3 stock which would not free up any 165s, and in any event this would be unlikely to happen until May 2025 at the earliest, if at all.

To the first point, if a stock reshuffle is needed, then Chiltern could (be made to) take far more than that. Using politician-like weasel words, it only takes 1 2-car unit going to GWR to “help to alleviate” overcrowding- it just doesn’t help very much! Four or five might start to make a noticeable difference…

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Lots of armchair / crayon planning in evidence here!

Diagram-wise the Cardiff-Pompey route might be relatively self-contained but it’s very short of ideal in the sense that;
- Passenger flows are not suited to end-vestibuled stock
- Multiple working ideally needs through gangways
- Several diagrams start/end Fratton, so cycling sets through St Philips Marsh is awkward. Not great for a fleet with known reliability issues!

Barnstaple/Okehampton would be doable but potentially issues with short platforms? Barny also needs 3-car units to meet peak loadings, so would depend which 175s are available. If based out of Laira this would create a lot of ECS moves as those diagrams are Exeter based and diagram cycling is designed to rotate sets through SPM, not Laira.

It might happen but I can see real operational difficulties coming along quickly if GWR do get 175s. This could turn into a ‘be careful what you wish for!’ situation with hindsight.

 

[RPI]

Lots of armchair / crayon planning in evidence here!

Diagram-wise the Cardiff-Pompey route might be relatively self-contained but it’s very short of ideal in the sense that;
- Passenger flows are not suited to end-vestibuled stock
- Multiple working ideally needs through gangways
- Several diagrams start/end Fratton, so cycling sets through St Philips Marsh is awkward. Not great for a fleet with known reliability issues!

Barnstaple/Okehampton would be doable but potentially issues with short platforms? Barny also needs 3-car units to meet peak loadings, so would depend which 175s are available. If based out of Laira this would create a lot of ECS moves as those diagrams are Exeter based and diagram cycling is designed to rotate sets through SPM, not Laira.

It might happen but I can see real operational difficulties coming along quickly if GWR do get 175s. This could turn into a ‘be careful what you wish for!’ situation with hindsight.

You're right about crayon planning (I include myself in that). No issues with Barny line if three cars, currently operates as three car 158's, Okehampton would be fine with three or four cars.

I think as stated earlier, having 175's is far from ideal but it may be a case of beggars can't be choosers, the state of the West fleet is just abysmal with the number of short formations and there's also the issue of the forthcoming Cornwall Metro, for which everything is funded except for extra stock!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

You're right about crayon planning (I include myself in that). No issues with Barny line if three cars, currently operates as three car 158's, Okehampton would be fine with three or four cars.

I think as stated earlier, having 175's is far from ideal but it may be a case of beggars can't be choosers, the state of the West fleet is just abysmal with the number of short formations and there's also the issue of the forthcoming Cornwall Metro, for which everything is funded except for extra stock!

Agreed

Mid Cornwall metro basically won’t happen until additional stock is obtained, it’s not as if there’s any way for further capacity to be generated on paper without cutting services elsewhere.

 

[JonathanH]

As the IA is still rumbling on there’s no chance of any training taking place. Also those few that were 769 competent (a small number of depot drivers & training managers) will no longer have a valid competency. Same goes for the technicians.

If this is the valid concern that prevented the 769s entering service, how would training on 175s (or indeed any other stock not currently operating on the GWR network) be different?

 

[The exile]

When there are no landslips etc, what’s Chiltern’s current stock utilisation like? Could they, for instance, provide the standby unit for Greenford once the fast charge trial starts? If so - there’s the first one.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If this is the valid concern that prevented the 769s entering service, how would training on 175s (or indeed any other stock not currently operating on the GWR network) be different?

It wouldn’t, but it cancels out one of the few advantages that the old, unreliable (at other operators) and slow units have over newer stock.