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LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

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Well I've submitted some strong opposition to the removal of off peak fares on LNER's feedback form and as an enquiry to Transport Focus. LNER are already pricey enough to make me prefer driving from Yorkshire to Peterborough and using GTR services from there. Or using Grand Central (though I expect they will increase fares commensurately). I'm fully aware that I'm basically doing what LNER & Government would like me to do by avoiding LNER trains, so they can charge more to people who will pay more!
 
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modernrail

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Does anybody have a view on whether this might be a removal of a regulated fare that is not actually permitted?

Also on whether this is a removal of a National Rail fare that also might not actually permitted from a statutory position?

I just don’t see how we have jumped from TOCs being legally obliged to offer these regulated fares (presumably with supporting legislation to put that obligation in place) to a position where they can just pull it without amending legislation.
 

Starmill

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I suspect this is to stop people breaking their journey. But I've never understood why the railway has this thing against people dropping back a train to go for a McD's. I understand not wanting people to start short and save money, but that's not applicable to these as they're not pricing shorter trips higher than longer ones, it's like they've got it in for people who just want to stop off for sustenance.
I don't think this is an enthusiast-led thing either. LNER have plenty of people making journeys over five hours. I don't think it's unreasonable to want to be able to break that up somewhere...
 

Starmill

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LNER have confirmed to me on Twitter that the semi-flexible option is not guaranteed to be offered for £20 on every Advance fare.
I think that sounds more like it. It was a misstatement or misinterpretation to think that it would always be available.

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Really to what?

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So that means they lied when they said it was £20 before. Not looking squeaky clean, this, is it?
"honest mistake for which we apologise"
"misheard the question" etc
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't think this is an enthusiast-led thing either. LNER have plenty of people making journeys over five hours. I don't think it's unreasonable to want to be able to break that up somewhere...

I suppose to be fair it's not that hard to split Advances to get a break if you know where you might want it. To use a journey I do fairly often, between Milton Keynes and the Lake District (Windermere or Penrith), I tend to break that at Manchester for an hour or so for food (normally on a through walk up fare though). It'd not be too hard to rock up to Windermere and just book to Manchester and rebook on getting there.

(A useful feature for Trainsplit would be allowing a station to be specified as "require a split here - I wish to break my journey" rather than having to do it in two transactions).

I can thus just about cope with an Advances only policy even though I don't like it or want it.

What is an issue is that if I don't know what time I'm returning that Advance might cost £150+ or might not exist by the time I do know. The most important feature of the Super Off Peak Single on LNER is that it provides a cap above which the fare cannot rise.
 

mad_rich

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I think my response going forward will be to treat LNER with the disdain they deserve.

I will always treat the staff with respect, but as a company I will do my best to screw them over as much as I can. I will complain bitterly at every opportunity, reduce the revenue I pay them as much as practical, and Community Note them mercilessly on Twitter. If they owe me money and there’s even a hint of slow payment, I’ll file a chargeback with my credit card company just for fun.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think my response going forward will be to treat LNER with the disdain they deserve.

I will always treat the staff with respect, but as a company I will do my best to screw them over as much as I can. I will complain bitterly at every opportunity, reduce the revenue I pay them as much as practical, and Community Note them mercilessly on Twitter. If they owe me money and there’s even a hint of slow payment, I’ll file a chargeback with my credit card company.

To be fair I'm applying that policy to the railway as a whole at the moment, or a variant of it, that is that I will claim EVERY bit of Delay Repay that may be due, however minor. I used to not claim if I felt the railway hadn't done anything wrong, e.g. if it was due to a suicide and was handled well on the ground, or if I travelled on a particularly windy or rainy day when problems might have been anticipated from flooding, wires down etc again out of their control.
 

Bletchleyite

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You can see the fares on BR Fares they tie in to the relevant Advance + £20

They don't appear to be uniformly £20 on LNER's site, someone has posted it being £27.50 above. This could be a quirk of how the quotas work, though.

It also seems to be the case that they will tweak with them during the trial, though I don't recall where I read that.
 

mad_rich

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So that means they lied when they said it was £20 before. Not looking squeaky clean, this, is it?
A charitable version of events is that they have papered over the cracks of the truth with omission and bluster.

But yes, I think it’s not unreasonable to suggest LNER and David Horne have lied.
 

Fermiboson

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A charitable version of events is that they have papered over the cracks of the truth with omission and bluster.

But yes, I think it’s not unreasonable to suggest LNER and David Horne have lied.
"Being economical with the truth"
Though, to be fair, it isn't exactly surprising that when they misrepresent a portion of their plan, they have misrepresented another portion of it.
 

mad_rich

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They don't appear to be uniformly £20 on LNER's site, someone has posted it being £27.50 above. This could be a quirk of how the quotas work, though.
I found some that were £26.50, and other examples where the Advance is available, but no Flex.

Both cases were at the shoulder of the peak, so exactly where LNER might want to discourage flexibility.
 

norbitonflyer

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  • providing emergency childcare cover for a relative,
  • travelling to stand in for an actor or musician who is taken ill,
  • returning home from an airport after a delayed flight
You would have notice for all of those events.
No you wouldn't. I have had to arrange for someone to travel at no notice whatsoever for both the first two eventualities when the person supposed to be doing the job fell ill on the day.
 

Bletchleyite

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  • providing emergency childcare cover for a relative,
  • travelling to stand in for an actor or musician who is taken ill,
  • returning home from an airport after a delayed flight

To be fair, most of those are pretty occasional or would (in the latter case) be covered by travel insurance.

I think we should probably concentrate on the loss of the fare cap provided by the Super Off Peak rather than the ticket itself, which mean higher fares for almost everyone, not just 10%ish of users.
 

Bikeman78

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I also don't agree with the changes, for the record, but it's a mistake to think that the views of posters here, or vocal X users, necessarily correspond with those of the general public.
If most people are booking advances, which include seat reservations, why are there reportedly standing passengers on trains to Edinburgh? Are they making short hop journeys? I should point out that I hardly ever use LNER so I have no personal observations as to the types of journeys people make or how busy the trains are.
 

Bletchleyite

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If most people are booking advances, which include seat reservations, why are there reportedly standing passengers on trains to Edinburgh? Are they making short hop journeys? I should point out that I hardly ever use LNER so I have no personal observations as to the types of journeys people make or how busy the trains are.

I very much suspect that for shorter journeys far more walk-ups are sold. That's why just trialling this on the longest journeys is more than a little bit sly.

If they'd included Leeds like they did for the single-fare pricing, I suspect they may have seen quite different results.

Looking at the WCML, which I'm more familiar with, I'd reckon that there are more walk-ups sold from London-Brum, probably about 50-50 or 60-40 for Manchester, and similar to LNER (10-90ish) for Glasgow.
 

GoneSouth

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It's not about what happens today, this week or even this month. Clearly LNER aren't going to be stupid enough to show massive price increases in the launch week.

The problem is what happens in a few months or years time.

Advance fares are unregulated. There is no transparency. We don't know how many tickets there are at what price, they can change at the drop of a hat.
A cash strapped train company needs to raise some revenue. No problem - put £20 on each ticket. No-one will notice. Of course they will keep a handful of very cheap fares on the first/last train so they can advertise 'fares from £...'
Next remove the number of cheaper tickets available in each tier - a common tactic to jack up revenue.
LNER tell us that Off Peak fares are outdated and complicated. Err - not really when compared to what is being proposed.
Heaven knows what's going to happen during planned engineering works, or disruption, or when connections are missed.
Goodbye to using alternative operators unless you have an Anytime ticket
And goodbye to any chance of a refund if your plans change unless you have an anytime ticket. Disgraceful.
 

maniacmartin

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If I was LNER, I would price the Flex ticket at £20 plus the highest of all of the Advance tickets for itineraries within the 140 minute window. It'd stop people gaming the system by buying the "wrong" ticket on purpose. I'm not sure if they're doing this, but if they are, it would explain why Flexes near the shoulder peaks have a more than £20 premium.
 

Bletchleyite

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And goodbye to any chance of a refund if your plans change unless you have an anytime ticket. Disgraceful.

Refunds are a funny one. I think most people didn't know tickets were refundable in the 90s. It only became better known when the new ticket format making it clear they were refundable, and online sales sites with a refund button, became the thing at roughly the same time.

It is a significant downgrade, though.

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If I was LNER, I would price the Flex ticket at £20 plus the highest of all of the Advance tickets for itineraries within the 140 minute window. It'd stop people gaming the system by buying the "wrong" ticket on purpose. I'm not sure if they're doing this, but if they are, it would explain why Flexes near the shoulder peaks have a more than £20 premium.

I did think that, but it's probably much harder to do technically unless you're going to stop selling via third party sites entirely. Sleasyjet Flexible Fare pricing works sort of on that basis ish.
 

GoneSouth

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Why would they be offering advances at a cheaper rate on the day if they just wanted money?



You keep mentioning the Avanti anytimes. You fail to mention the key differences between them; namely Avanti don’t (at all, iirc) do advance on the day, and there is a clear peak demand on London-Manchester.

Considering LNER have competition from the car, the plane and on the rails from Lumo, I would be very surprised if they started taking the biscuit with dynamic pricing. The DfT subsidy for Northern has to come from somewhere!


For anyone outside these forums, off peak is far more complicated than it needs to be.

Sure, you can ‘do your research’ - but why should the system be so complicated that you need to in the first place?
Errr you still need to do your research with the new ticket type, there were many price options when I checked, not just one as you would expect for a simple system

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Your example explicitly mentioned Anytime Returns. They don’t exist anymore on LNER.

Again, people are making their judgement based on the worst case scenario - I’d genuinely be surprised if (outside of packed out trains) these tickets will be sold out.
Maybe not, but not being able to refund IS A BIG DOWNGRADE. It’s just wrong
 

johncrossley

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there is a clear peak demand on London-Manchester.

Is there? Peak time trains between London and Manchester are typically less busy than outside the peaks. I took a peak train on Friday morning a couple of months back (where they have even removed the peak restriction to allow Off-Peak tickets to be used) and I was the only person in the coach! The silly Anytime fares only exist because they are not regulated.
 

Bletchleyite

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Is there? Peak time trains between London and Manchester are typically less busy than outside the peaks. I took a peak train on Friday morning a couple of months back (where they have even removed the peak restriction to allow Off-Peak tickets to be used) and I was the only person in the coach! The silly Anytime fares only exist because they are not regulated.

The silly Manchester-London Anytime fares exist because you make more money by selling one £350 ticket than three £100 ones. They then doubly make money by packing MKC season ticket holders on further south.

Were prople not priced into cars/onto trains the evening before with a hotel, those trains would be a lot busier.
 

yorksrob

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The silly Manchester-London Anytime fares exist because you make more money by selling one £350 ticket than three £100 ones. They then doubly make money by packing MKC season ticket holders on further south.

Were prople not priced into cars/onto trains the evening before with a hotel, those trains would be a lot busier.

All to woo the lesser spotted expense count business magnate. Have these types actually returned to the railway I wonder, or are we carting around fresh air I wonder.
 

Typhoon

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Yes

Yes because you were valid on the 1300 and the next available train is 1400.

Yes

No, which is wrong in my opinion. (However staff may show discretion)

I would argue yes; but see above, someone has asked them that question.

As long as you do not "break" your journey, yes. For example you can stop off for an hour at the York Tap but you would not be permitted to have a quick meal in Wetherspoons. (In theory; don't ask how they can enforce this!)

Yes there will be disagreements. If you are not on the booked train, the scan is blue, meaning 'further checks required'.

I suspect many staff will show discretion, but there is one very well known guard based on this route who could be quite strict!

True, but LNER are not going to admit that their version of simple is anything but. They are under strict instructions from DfT.

True

It is possible they will extend the trial on that basis. But I suspect they will just be trying to move from trial to full deployment as soon as possible. Extending the trial too much could jeopardise it, as it would result in more bad publicity. A smaller trial probably helps them to ensure the figures look good!

My fairly confident guesses would be:

Yes, because timetabled departure counts
Yes, if that's the next available service
Yes, because timetabled departure counts
No, because timetabled departure counts. This is the same as currently - if you have an Advance, you can't jump on an earlier delayed train (unless somebody says you can)
Maybe. If they refuse, I would simply dispute the ticket cost with my credit card company. At least it costs LNER time and money then, even if they eventually decide in LNERs favour.
I doubt it
Thank you for your very detailed and thorough responses. Apologies for not responding earlier but when I got up, I couldn't face the number of posts I would have to read through. I probably still haven't read them all. However, the volume of responses (533 at present) indicates that this is both controversial and there is some uncertainty about how far the restrictions go. Most customer/ passenger facing staff are fine*, I find, but there will be misunderstandings by staff and the travelling public, potentially expensive ones at that and few involved will have ready access to @yorkie or @mad_rich (or any other experts on the Forum). Also, when passengers find their (what they thought of as a) bit pricey ticket of £65 each is now £112 each, they may well seek out an alternative or not travel if the journey is not essential. People expect the annual price rise, moan a bit but otherwise take it in their stride, big jerks up (because the previous ticket type is not available) cause anger and e-mails to MPs. The forthcoming increase in season tickets was first on the agenda on local news, this definitely would be. (Reductions, I'm afraid, would not be credited or dismissed as a sign that people had previously been overcharged.

* - Completely off thread but do compliments ever get passed on? I ask because I witnessed a staff member do the right thing fairly recently, I was aware that a passenger might complain so wrote to the TOC, they have never responded. I spoke to another staff member who said that all they hear were complaints.
 

ainsworth74

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I wonder how many FOI requests have made their way to the DfT and LNER over the last 24 hours. Bet it's quite a substantial number :lol:
 

Gaelan

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I wonder how many FOI requests have made their way to the DfT and LNER over the last 24 hours. Bet it's quite a substantial number :lol:
14, as of my request last night!

As I said there, my sympathies to the LNER FOI person team (person?), who are/is lovely.
 
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