Can staff refuse to let you through a barrier when abandoning a journey?

[Exrover]

On Wednesday I was travelling home from London Euston to Kenilworth (via Coventry) on an advance ticket. I was booked on the 17.40, which didn't leave until 18.10 - no surprise there. When I arrived at Coventry I saw the 19.00 train to Kenilworth that I should have been on pulling out. The next train is at 20.00. So I decided to abandon the journey and get an Uber home - the train journey is only 7 minutes so it isn't far. When I got to the barrier to leave the platform, the person operating it refused to let me through. I was told that I had a "contained ticket" - a new phrase on me - and I had to complete the journey. I asked if they really thought I was compelled to wait the best part of an hour for a train when I could go home right now? Apparently I was. And when I insisted that I had to be let through I was told that I didn't and the member of staff actually walked away from the barrier indicating he had no intention of helping me. Eventually another member of staff saw sense and let me through. Is this actually correct, can you be denied exit from a station in these circumstances?

This is not the first case of staff at Coventry station apparently making rules up as they go along. Back in the summer I had to get an 06.00 replacement bus from Kenilworth to get the 07.10 train from Coventry - the 07.00 bus would not have made it. On arrival at the station I was not allowed through the barrier "because I was too early for my train". Protestations that I had no wish to be there that early and it was down to the replacement bus fell on deaf ears. Apparently there is a rule that you can't arrive at a station more than 20 minutes before your train departs. Although I have searched the conditions of transport and byelaws in vain for this rule.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Staff aren't permitted to detain passengers in stations. At worst, if it was a discretionary end of journey early (rather than one caused by disruption) they could charge an excess to the cheapest fare permitting break of journey, or if you failed to pay that on request could write you up for prosecution or issue a Penalty Fare. However as your case involved disruption then abandoning the journey was justifiable - any level of disruption (to the time you would reach your destination) permits that.

Wonder were they on secondment from Euston gateline?

 

[birchesgreen]

I've arrived at stations long before my train was due in the past and had no problem.

As for not letting you out, thats ridiculous. Its false imprisonment, you should have called the police if it hadn't been resolved.

 

[Deepgreen]

On Wednesday I was travelling home from London Euston to Kenilworth (via Coventry) on an advance ticket. I was booked on the 17.40, which didn't leave until 18.10 - no surprise there. When I arrived at Coventry I saw the 19.00 train to Kenilworth that I should have been on pulling out. The next train is at 20.00. So I decided to abandon the journey and get an Uber home - the train journey is only 7 minutes so it isn't far. When I got to the barrier to leave the platform, the person operating it refused to let me through. I was told that I had a "contained ticket" - a new phrase on me - and I had to complete the journey. I asked if they really thought I was compelled to wait the best part of an hour for a train when I could go home right now? Apparently I was. And when I insisted that I had to be let through I was told that I didn't and the member of staff actually walked away from the barrier indicating he had no intention of helping me. Eventually another member of staff saw sense and let me through. Is this actually correct, can you be denied exit from a station in these circumstances?

This is not the first case of staff at Coventry station apparently making rules up as they go along. Back in the summer I had to get an 06.00 replacement bus from Kenilworth to get the 07.10 train from Coventry - the 07.00 bus would not have made it. On arrival at the station I was not allowed through the barrier "because I was too early for my train". Protestations that I had no wish to be there that early and it was down to the replacement bus fell on deaf ears. Apparently there is a rule that you can't arrive at a station more than 20 minutes before your train departs. Although I have searched the conditions of transport and byelaws in vain for this rule.

My response would have been; "will you call the BTP or shall I?".

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Surely there are a myriad of ticketing permutations that allow a ticket to be bought for a longer journey than the one actually being made? Just this week the Man in Seat 61 was demonstrating simple ways to get around the current farcical LNER ticketing trial, such as London-Haymarket rather than Edinburgh.

 

[Deepgreen]

Staff aren't permitted to detain passengers in stations. At worst, if it was a discretionary end of journey early (rather than one caused by disruption) they could charge an excess to the cheapest fare permitting break of journey, or if you failed to pay that on request could write you up for prosecution or issue a Penalty Fare. However as your case involved disruption then abandoning the journey was justifiable - any level of disruption (to the time you would reach your destination) permits that.

Wonder were they on secondment from Euston gateline?

So even though the curtailed journey would have used 'less railway', a penalty might apply? Only in modern Britain..!

 

[AlterEgo]

More amazing customer service from Britain's railways. We really do not help ourselves.

 

[alistairlees]

On Wednesday I was travelling home from London Euston to Kenilworth (via Coventry) on an advance ticket. I was booked on the 17.40, which didn't leave until 18.10 - no surprise there. When I arrived at Coventry I saw the 19.00 train to Kenilworth that I should have been on pulling out. The next train is at 20.00. So I decided to abandon the journey and get an Uber home - the train journey is only 7 minutes so it isn't far. When I got to the barrier to leave the platform, the person operating it refused to let me through. I was told that I had a "contained ticket" - a new phrase on me - and I had to complete the journey. I asked if they really thought I was compelled to wait the best part of an hour for a train when I could go home right now? Apparently I was. And when I insisted that I had to be let through I was told that I didn't and the member of staff actually walked away from the barrier indicating he had no intention of helping me. Eventually another member of staff saw sense and let me through. Is this actually correct, can you be denied exit from a station in these circumstances?

This is not the first case of staff at Coventry station apparently making rules up as they go along. Back in the summer I had to get an 06.00 replacement bus from Kenilworth to get the 07.10 train from Coventry - the 07.00 bus would not have made it. On arrival at the station I was not allowed through the barrier "because I was too early for my train". Protestations that I had no wish to be there that early and it was down to the replacement bus fell on deaf ears. Apparently there is a rule that you can't arrive at a station more than 20 minutes before your train departs. Although I have searched the conditions of transport and byelaws in vain for this rule.

The member of staff was both making things up and also completely failing to empathise with you, the customer. By doing only a few things differently, they could have given you a completely different impression.

 

[JonathanH]

Surely there are a myriad of ticketing permutations that allow a ticket to be bought for a longer journey than the one actually being made? Just this week the Man in Seat 61 was demonstrating simple ways to get around the current farcical LNER ticketing trial, such as London-Haymarket rather than Edinburgh.

Not if the passenger has an advance ticket, where the rules unfortunately quite clearly state that the ticket is only valid between the points at the start and end of the ticket.

Stopping short on tickets that permit break of journey was what the 'Man in Seat 61' was describing.

Clearly there is a point of impass between asking to be paid the excess to leave an intermediate station and asking to exit without paying that, potentially resolved by travelling on to the destination.

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

Similar experience at Coventry gateline when I was cross examined after my return portion of a Rugby to Banbury off peak return was rejected by the barriers. Stated as if it was fact that this meant the ticket had been used before (it hadn't!)

 

[Kite159]

Some more rogue Avanti gateline staff, are they on secondment from Crewe?

Of course if the railway cared about passengers they would have seen you had missed a connection to a hourly service and would have ordered you a taxi themselves as a way to say sorry for the delays.

 

[Turtle]

So even though the curtailed journey would have used 'less railway', a penalty might apply? Only in modern Britain..!

Surely you realise by now that The Railway truly exists in an alternative reality. It's quite logical for an employee, of a certain mentality, to attempt to prevent a passenger to leave a station prior to the time they might have boarded a train, the ticket for which they decided not to use.
Lewis Carroll, thou shouldst be living at this hour.

 

[wilbers]

What is even odder is that letting you leave at Coventry saves the railway money - if you had waited an hour and then gone to Kenilworth then delay repay would have been payable.

 

[Starmill]

Similar experience at Coventry gateline when I was cross examined after my return portion of a Rugby to Banbury off peak return was rejected by the barriers. Stated as if it was fact that this meant the ticket had been used before (it hadn't!)

'of course I've already used it, how else would I have got in at Banbury and travelled here just now?'

 

[30907]

Not if the passenger has an advance ticket, where the rules unfortunately quite clearly state that the ticket is only valid between the points at the start and end of the ticket.

Yes, but with advances staff are asked to exercise discretion on this anyway - which clearly they struggled with.
You might also request to be let through to use station facilities

 

[Exrover]

It is not even as though you save any money by booking advance tickets from Euston to Kenilworth. Because it is two separate operators they just add the cost together. For example, booking the 17.40 from Euston on Feb 7, to Coventry the cost is £51.00, to Kenilworth it is £54.20 ,and from Coventry to Kenilworth it is £3.20. Would be interesting to see what the penalty fare would then be for breaking the journey at Coventry? The only reason I book the through ticket is for convenience. In future I shall book the trip as separate journeys and then I will have the freedom to abandon the final leg if I so wish.

 

[Wolfie]

The member of staff was both making things up and also completely failing to empathise with you, the customer. By doing only a few things differently, they could have given you a completely different impression.

Said member of staff should rapidly lose that status.

Not if the passenger has an advance ticket, where the rules unfortunately quite clearly state that the ticket is only valid between the points at the start and end of the ticket.

Stopping short on tickets that permit break of journey was what the 'Man in Seat 61' was describing.

Clearly there is a point of impass between asking to be paid the excess to leave an intermediate station and asking to exit without paying that, potentially resolved by travelling on to the destination.

Are you really purporting to claim that the conditions associated with Advanced tickets remove rights under the National Conditions of travel to terminate a journey early due to delays or disruption?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Please do write in to complain, being sure to mention the name of the staff member should you have seen it from a badge, as this really needs to be dealt with. Such poor customer service as I’m so often seeing or hearing about on the railway these days needs can’t not be addressed.

 

[Jimini]

They can be a funny bunch at Coventry. I’ve lost count of the amount of times I’ve had to argue to get them to let me through to catch the 0825 southbound XC service with an off-peak ticket.

 

[Adam Williams]

Wow.

It's ridiculous that you'd even need to contemplate this, but Coventry has quite a few manned gatelines (perhaps due to the duplicative new station building that was built without knocking down the existing eyesore and now seems to sit with mostly vacant retail units), and I would suggest simply turning around and trying one of the others if specific members of staff cannot be reasoned with.

 

[Peter0124]

Ridiculous they wouldn't let you out, especially as your inbound journey was delayed.

Would the advance to Coventry + a off peak single to Kenilworth been much in the difference compared to buying the Advance the full way? I'd imagine you'd be able to buy the Coventry - Kenilworth fare on your phone right after you alighted the Avanti if you still wanted to use the connection home, just incase your Avanti was late and you missed the connection anyway so won't have wasted money on an unused Kenilworth ticket.

Whenever I travel long distance from Glasgow, I almost always originate it from Glasgow Central, and buy a seperate Scotrail fare to connect into it.

 

[jacksonbang]

Ring the police. You can't be held like that.

 

[Exrover]

Wow.

It's ridiculous that you'd even need to contemplate this, but Coventry has quite a few manned gatelines (perhaps due to the duplicative new station building that was built without knocking down the existing eyesore and now seems to sit with mostly vacant retail units), and I would suggest simply turning around and trying one of the others if specific members of staff cannot be reasoned with.

I have actually done this in the past. The member of staff that is usually responsible for the new barriers is very helpful. In fact, in fairness to them, most of the staff at Coventry are helpful.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Wait the hour. Claim delay repay. In doing so, ensure they know the complete reason why. IMO We all need to hurt these people where it matters, whenever they give us cause.

 

[JonathanH]

Are you really purporting to claim that the conditions associated with Advanced tickets remove rights under the National Conditions of travel to terminate a journey early due to delays or disruption?

I agree that some discretion could have been applied in this instance, but which right in the National Conditions of Travel actually gives a carte blanche to terminate a journey on an advance ticket early in disruption when it is still possible to reach the destination by train? It isn't explicitly mentioned in Condition 28 about "What happens when things go wrong?". On the face of it, the terms of the advance ticket do not allow them to make any other journey than London Euston to Kenilworth.

The railway was still in a position to deliver the original poster to their destination, albeit an hour late.

How long does the delay need to be for an advance ticket to be accepted for exit at an intermediate station, on the basis that we accept that an advance ticket may not be used to exit when everything is running to plan?

Wait the hour. Claim delay repay. In doing so, ensure they know the complete reason why. IMO We all need to hurt these people where it matters, whenever they give us cause.

Almost certainly 59 minutes in the instance of a cancelled hourly service, as most trains arrive a few seconds before the full hour.

I'm not sure the people sorting out delay repay see it as more than a processing job, so no one gets hurt when it is paid out.

 

[bcarmicle]

but which right in the National Conditions of Travel actually gives a carte blanche to terminate a journey on an advance ticket early in disruption when it is still possible to reach the destination by train? It isn't explicitly mentioned in Condition 28 about "What happens when things go wrong?".

Conditions 30.1 – 30.4 cover all Tickets other than Season Tickets, and also apply if you have begun your journey but are unable to complete it due to a delay to, or cancellation of, your service. In such cases, you are permitted to return to your point of origin and still get a refund.

(emphasis mine)

There is therefore an implicit right to abandon your journey due to disruption.

How long does the delay need to be for an advance ticket to be accepted for exit at an intermediate station, on the basis that we accept that an advance ticket may not be used to exit when everything is running to plan?

I suspect a reasonable person test would apply taking into account the purpose of travel and the details of the journey.

 

[tspaul26]

It is not even as though you save any money by booking advance tickets from Euston to Kenilworth. Because it is two separate operators they just add the cost together. For example, booking the 17.40 from Euston on Feb 7, to Coventry the cost is £51.00, to Kenilworth it is £54.20 ,and from Coventry to Kenilworth it is £3.20. Would be interesting to see what the penalty fare would then be for breaking the journey at Coventry? The only reason I book the through ticket is for convenience. In future I shall book the trip as separate journeys and then I will have the freedom to abandon the final leg if I so wish.

Where have you obtained this price?

There is no through fare from Euston to Kenilworth at that level.

 

[JonathanH]

There is therefore an implicit right to abandon your journey due to disruption.

Firstly I'm not trying to justify the action of the staff, more trying to understand how someone would deal with the issue if faced with it on another occasion.

In this case, the passenger was disrupted, but could each their destination on the next service, so in terms of condition 30, they were able to complete their journey. If condition 30 doesn't apply, then it would seem they can't abandon it.

I suspect a reasonable person test would apply taking into account the purpose of travel and the details of the journey.

That, of course, is discretion, not right.

 

[AlterEgo]

Wait the hour. Claim delay repay. In doing so, ensure they know the complete reason why. IMO We all need to hurt these people where it matters, whenever they give us cause.

Delay repay is usually automatically verified, so this is a non starter.

 

[Exrover]

Where have you obtained this price?

There is no through fare from Euston to Kenilworth at that level.

You can purchase a through fare from Euston to Kenilworth on the Trainline or Avanti website. It is a return journey I do once or twice a week.