Pre-nationalisation schemes that never happened

[Helvellyn]

A couple of threads have had me thinking about pre-nationalisation schemes that never happened and how the railway might have looked today if they had.

Euston rebuild - I wonder if the LMS had done this whether BR would have needed to do its own 1960s rebuild for electrification? The hotel could well have become offices by the 1960s (and maybe back as a hotel today). Would be decrying the loss of the Doric Arch and Hardwick's Great Hall if we had an Art Deco gem as a replacement?

(I'd not heard of a similar plan to rebuild St Pancras but I think the hotel was seen as outdated with so few rooms having en suite bathroons).

Waterloo rebuild completed - the LSWR never completed its rebuild of Waterloo, leaving us with the Windsor platforms and old buildings until sweapt away for the Eurostar terminal in the 1990s. If the rebuild had been completed I wonder if Waterloo would even have been considered for Eurostar?

Woking Flyover - the Southern had the land but never built the flyover towards Guildford to grade separate Woking Junction. Would we have seen a more intensive timetable through Woking? I also presume there would have been zero need to build platform 3 in the 1990s for the Woking stoppers, these services running to/from Guildford instead.

Chessington-Leatherhead - Chessington wouldn't be a branch line and there would have been more through journeys to Guildford, as well as diversionary options.

Northern Heights - Not technically a pre-nationalisation scheme but I have included it because if it had gone ahead the Northern City Line would be firmly part of the Underground, so the 1970s Great Northern electrification might not have happened - or in a different way if the curves under King's Cross were retained. Could we have seen Thameslink evolve differently in the 1980s with the Great Northern inner suburban services alongside the Midland Mainline ones running through London with more Midland Mainline services staying at St Pancras (say Luton/Bedford services)?


I've put this as a historic thread rather than a speculative one because it's historic schemes that never happened. Be interesting to hear of other schemes, small or large, that never happened due to either World War, Grouping or other reasons.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Full eight tracking Clapham Jct to Waterloo. Even now there’s a 7 track section near Queenstown Road.

 

[The exile]

The rationalisation of Gw / LMS services in and around Bath - new link at Newbridge to bring LMS trains into a new Bath station roughly where the goods shed is and then a link at Midford from the Camerton line up to the SOmerset & Dorset.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The GWR proposed the Dawlish Avoiding Line and a new line to Looe from St. Germans. Earlier the Fishguard boat train route was never completed in full, thanks to many ocean liners being diverted from Liverpool to Southampton and then Irish independence.

The SR wanted a flyover at Exeter St. Davids with its own platforms to the west to reduce conflicts and ease the gradient from Central.

The LMS proposed a new, grand central station in Blackpool to rationalise and consolidate its presence there.

 

[Helvellyn]

The SR wanted a flyover at Exeter St. Davids with its own platforms to the west to reduce conflicts and ease the gradient from Central.

That would have been interesting but logical to keep the old LSWR routes separate from the GWR ones.

The LMS proposed a new, grand central station in Blackpool to rationalise and consolidate its presence there.

Was this planned as a redevelopment of Central, or a completely new station? It could certainly seen Blackpool's railways look very different post-Beeching.

 

[ac6000cw]

The LNER intended to double the line between Ely and Soham - it got as far as replacing the river bridge at the Ely end with double-track one, but WW2 intervened and then BR never progressed the doubling. The bridge has been replaced again in recent years (due to derailment accident damage) with another double-track span. NR got as far as doing some preliminary work on the doubling to Soham but stopped after (AFAIK) discovering the ground conditions were worse than it thought and hence it would cost too much. So there have now been two double-track bridges installed in the last 100 years but the line is still single...

The SR wanted a flyover at Exeter St. Davids with its own platforms to the west to reduce conflicts and ease the gradient from Central.

Was there also a plan to build their own tracks onwards to Cowley Bridge Junction (where their route west diverged)?

 

[341o2]

The LSWR proposed a Dorchester - Exeter route, which never got any further than the terminal platform at Dorchester

The LNER intended to double the line between Ely and Soham - it got as far as replacing the river bridge at the Ely end with double-track one, but WW2 intervened and then BR never progressed the doubling. The bridge has been replaced again in recent years (due to derailment accident damage) with another double-track span. NR got as far as doing some preliminary work on the doubling to Soham but stopped after (AFAIK) discovering the ground conditions were worse than it thought and hence it would cost too much. So there have now been two double-track bridges installed in the last 100 years but the line is still single...


Was there also a plan to build their own tracks onwards to Cowley Bridge Junction (where their route west diverged)?

Yes, the idea was to be completely separate from the GWR.having a new station at Riverside, then rejoining the existing LSWR tracks west of Cowley Bridge.
The line to Chessington South was also proposed to be extended, tracks were laid as far as Chalky Lane, but the war and Green Belt policy put an end to it

 

[30907]

Woking Flyover - the Southern had the land but never built the flyover towards Guildford to grade separate Woking Junction. Would we have seen a more intensive timetable through Woking?

Probably not, as the Through/Fast Lines have been at capacity since the 60s - but many fewer delays.

I also presume there would have been zero need to build platform 3 in the 1990s for the Woking stoppers, these services running to/from Guildford instead.

Probably

The LSWR proposed a Dorchester - Exeter route, which never got any further than the terminal platform at Dorchester

...because they built Worting-Exeter (in stages) instead in the 1860s. I don't think the coast route resurfaced after that (except in modellers' imagination!).

 

[M&NEJ]

The Furness Railway had a plan to cross the Duddon estuary directly betweem Askam in Furness and Millom, but I believe they were short of the capital needed. It would have taken about 20 minutes off the journey north from Barrow.

 

[Taunton]

The GWR proposed the Dawlish Avoiding Line and a new line to Looe from St. Germans. Earlier the Fishguard boat train route was never completed in full, thanks to many ocean liners being diverted from Liverpool to Southampton and then Irish independence.

The Dawlish avoider was part of a much larger proposal for much of Exeter to Newton Abbot, and also Newton to Plymouth avoiding the steep banks by substantial earthworks and tunneling. It was proposed a bit too early, around 1900, before the summer holiday traffic skyrocketed. Had it been proposed again in 1930 it would have stood a better chance.

A Southern avoiding line past Exeter St Davids, with high level platforms there, a (minor) reduction in the gradient up to Central, and a higher level out to Cowley Bridge overcoming the perennial flooding of the GWR line there, might have been part of this, but even less worthwhile for the limited revenue that section got.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Was this planned as a redevelopment of Central, or a completely new station? It could certainly seen Blackpool's railways look very different post-Beeching.

It was effectively a redevelopment and expansion of Central, but with a slight realignment to give a main entrance directly off the promenade. North Station and the line to Poulton would have closed - the latter only being served by Fleetwood services.

 

[mike57]

The Dawlish avoider was part of a much larger proposal for much of Exeter to Newton Abbot, and also Newton to Plymouth avoiding the steep banks by substantial earthworks and tunneling. It was proposed a bit too early, around 1900, before the summer holiday traffic skyrocketed. Had it been proposed again in 1930 it would have stood a better chance.

Were there not proposals for electrification at 3kV DC OH, would this have been instead of the Dawlish avoider, or in addition. Didn't these surface in the 1930s? Interesting if the 3kV DC proposal had gone ahead, would Woodhead of then been 3kV.

I would also add to this NER aspirations to electrify, they got as far a building a single loco, No 13, it managed a few trials on the Shildon branch but otherwise was never used. Grouping killed it off, but had it gone ahead then I think the ECML would look completely different today

 

[The exile]

The Dawlish avoider was part of a much larger proposal for much of Exeter to Newton Abbot, and also Newton to Plymouth avoiding the steep banks by substantial earthworks and tunneling. It was proposed a bit too early, around 1900, before the summer holiday traffic skyrocketed. Had it been proposed again in 1930 it would have stood a better chance.

Especially as it might at that point have been eligible for the very favourable terms offered by the government for various improvement schemes as unemployment relief. Not sure what railway projects benefitted, but the Grand Union Canal Company got a nice broad, concrete lined canal almost all the way from London to Birmingham. (“Almost” being the critical weakness in the whole scheme!)

 

[lakeland844]

A couple of threads have had me thinking about pre-nationalisation schemes that never happened and how the railway might have looked today if they had.

Euston rebuild - I wonder if the LMS had done this whether BR would have needed to do its own 1960s rebuild for electrification? The hotel could well have become offices by the 1960s (and maybe back as a hotel today). Would be decrying the loss of the Doric Arch and Hardwick's Great Hall if we had an Art Deco gem as a replacement?

(I'd not heard of a similar plan to rebuild St Pancras but I think the hotel was seen as outdated with so few rooms having en suite bathroons).

Waterloo rebuild completed - the LSWR never completed its rebuild of Waterloo, leaving us with the Windsor platforms and old buildings until sweapt away for the Eurostar terminal in the 1990s. If the rebuild had been completed I wonder if Waterloo would even have been considered for Eurostar?

Woking Flyover - the Southern had the land but never built the flyover towards Guildford to grade separate Woking Junction. Would we have seen a more intensive timetable through Woking? I also presume there would have been zero need to build platform 3 in the 1990s for the Woking stoppers, these services running to/from Guildford instead.

Chessington-Leatherhead - Chessington wouldn't be a branch line and there would have been more through journeys to Guildford, as well as diversionary options.

Northern Heights - Not technically a pre-nationalisation scheme but I have included it because if it had gone ahead the Northern City Line would be firmly part of the Underground, so the 1970s Great Northern electrification might not have happened - or in a different way if the curves under King's Cross were retained. Could we have seen Thameslink evolve differently in the 1980s with the Great Northern inner suburban services alongside the Midland Mainline ones running through London with more Midland Mainline services staying at St Pancras (say Luton/Bedford services)?


I've put this as a historic thread rather than a speculative one because it's historic schemes that never happened. Be interesting to hear of other schemes, small or large, that never happened due to either World War, Grouping or other reasons.

A couple of threads have had me thinking about pre-nationalisation schemes that never happened and how the railway might have looked today if they had.

Euston rebuild - I wonder if the LMS had done this whether BR would have needed to do its own 1960s rebuild for electrification? The hotel could well have become offices by the 1960s (and maybe back as a hotel today). Would be decrying the loss of the Doric Arch and Hardwick's Great Hall if we had an Art Deco gem as a replacement?

(I'd not heard of a similar plan to rebuild St Pancras but I think the hotel was seen as outdated with so few rooms having en suite bathroons).

Waterloo rebuild completed - the LSWR never completed its rebuild of Waterloo, leaving us with the Windsor platforms and old buildings until sweapt away for the Eurostar terminal in the 1990s. If the rebuild had been completed I wonder if Waterloo would even have been considered for Eurostar?

Woking Flyover - the Southern had the land but never built the flyover towards Guildford to grade separate Woking Junction. Would we have seen a more intensive timetable through Woking? I also presume there would have been zero need to build platform 3 in the 1990s for the Woking stoppers, these services running to/from Guildford instead.

Chessington-Leatherhead - Chessington wouldn't be a branch line and there would have been more through journeys to Guildford, as well as diversionary options.

Northern Heights - Not technically a pre-nationalisation scheme but I have included it because if it had gone ahead the Northern City Line would be firmly part of the Underground, so the 1970s Great Northern electrification might not have happened - or in a different way if the curves under King's Cross were retained. Could we have seen Thameslink evolve differently in the 1980s with the Great Northern inner suburban services alongside the Midland Mainline ones running through London with more Midland Mainline services staying at St Pancras (say Luton/Bedford services)?


I've put this as a historic thread rather than a speculative one because it's historic schemes that never happened. Be interesting to hear of other schemes, small or large, that never happened due to either World War, Grouping or other reasons.

During 1918, the then North Eastern Railway Chairman, Sir Vincent Ravens proposed to electrify the East Coast main line between Newcastle and York at 1500v DC - the previous 1913 electrification between Shildon in West Durham and Newport (Teesside) had been a success at that point.
They even built a prototype main line locomotive 2 -CO- 2 designation at Darlington works for the scheme during 1922 - LNER Classification was EE 1 numbered NER 13. It later passed to the LNER as 6999 and nominally to BR stock as number 26999.
The proposals for electrifying the ECML seemed to be quietly dropped sometime during 1923 and I don't think Number 13 ever actually did any work - unless somebody knows different. AFAIK the locomotive was withdrawn by BR in August 1950 and scrapped locally shortly afterwards.

A very far sighted scheme for it's time IMHO and could have potentially changed a lot of our subsequent railway history - had it been constructed at
the time, the GWR, LMS and others would no doubt have followed with similar electrification schemes very soon after ?

 

[32475]

The SR’s proposal for the London airport at Lullingstone, Kent. The station got built but never opened although the canopies were relocated to Canterbury East in the early’60s

 

[eldomtom2]

A very far sighted scheme for it's time IMHO and could have potentially changed a lot of our subsequent railway history - had it been constructed at
the time, the GWR, LMS and others would no doubt have followed with similar electrification schemes very soon after ?

A decade later there was serious government and industry interest in electrification that led to a government report that recommended electrification at 1500V DC - IIRC it was this that led to Woodhead.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

A decade later there was serious government and industry interest in electrification that led to a government report that recommended electrification at 1500V DC - IIRC it was this that led to Woodhead.

Yes the Weir Committe reported in 1931, making 1500V DC the standard for future electrification.

Weir Committee

The report of the second 'Weir Committee'; set up to look at the costs of a rolling programme of mainline electrification schemes at 1500V DC.

The NE Rly scheme for electrification between York and Newcastle foundered because of the depression - the LNER was in no position financially to make the capital commitment. It later took advantage of government assistance to make a start on Woodhead before being stopped by WW2.

 

[MontyP]

Full eight tracking Clapham Jct to Waterloo. Even now there’s a 7 track section near Queenstown Road.

I always thought the 8th track was lost when the Eurostar flyover was built.

 

[30907]

I always thought the 8th track was lost when the Eurostar flyover was built.

The bit through Queenstown Road was already missing - there was a non-electrified 8th track (the space is still there) which was a goods line for Nine Elms.

 

[Mr. SW]

The Central Line extension beyond West Ruislip to Denham has always intrigued me. Were there any plans on how the GWR Uxbridge Branch and the Colne Valley viaduct beyond would have been dealt with?

 

[etr221]

Yes the Weir Committe reported in 1931, making 1500V DC the standard for future electrification.

Weir Committee

The NE Rly scheme for electrification between York and Newcastle foundered because of the depression - the LNER was in no position financially to make the capital commitment. It later took advantage of government assistance to make a start on Woodhead before being stopped by WW2.

The Weir committee report restated what had earlier been decided (or recommended) early in the 1920s, regarding 'standard' electrification system for Britain. Certainly at least one of the reports did provide for 3kV dc where there were good reasons for it. It was this that permitted it for the GWR's West Country electrification study - I have read a piece somewhere questioning how serious it was, as being as much a report writing exercise to persuade the collieries to reduce the price of coal (which it did) as anything else.

 

[Merthyr Imp]

I can't readily lay my hands on it for the moment but in one of the railway magazines some years ago there was an article on a proposal by the LSWR to build a tunnel to connect the Lymington line to either Freshwater or Yarmouth on the Isle of Wight. Can't remember the details as it's a long time since I read it.

 

[etr221]

I can't readily lay my hands on it for the moment but in one of the railway magazines some years ago there was an article on a proposal by the LSWR to build a tunnel to connect the Lymington line to either Freshwater or Yarmouth on the Isle of Wight. Can't remember the details as it's a long time since I read it.

I'm not sure if was totally an LSWR project, but it got on to at least some Bartholomew maps, which showed a triangle junction on to the FYNR between Freshwater and Yarmouth, see here

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The Weir committee report restated what had earlier been decided (or recommended) early in the 1920s, regarding 'standard' electrification system for Britain. Certainly at least one of the reports did provide for 3kV dc where there were good reasons for it. It was this that permitted it for the GWR's West Country electrification study - I have read a piece somewhere questioning how serious it was, as being as much a report writing exercise to persuade the collieries to reduce the price of coal (which it did) as anything else.

The ludicrous thing about the GWR's West Country study was that everything west of Taunton was to be electrified including the branches and the freight only lines. It was widely assumed, even at the time, to be just a paper exercise to arrive at comparative costs. Clearly there would have been a much better business case to tackle the Bristol / S Wales routes first. One thing that did emerge was that the costs would be higher than normal because of the curvature of the main line through Devon and Cornwall, meaning more complex OHLE.

 

[Revaulx]

The greatest What If for me was the agreed merger of the GN, GE and GC in 1909 that got nixed by the government. A merged company would surely have been better placed to raise funds to make a start on London suburban electrification.

I’m sure other mergers would have followed. Cooperation between previously deadly enemies was becoming far more prevalent around that time.

 

[Rescars]

The Southern Heights Light Railway was proposed between Orpington and Sanderstead in 1928 on a speculative basis. The Southern Railway sponsored the scheme, but sufficient additional capital could not be raised, so it was never built. It was planned as a single line, but was to be electrified. Col Stephens was to be the engineer and he also actively promoted the line. It lost its greatest champion when he died.

 

[Irascible]

The Dawlish avoider was part of a much larger proposal for much of Exeter to Newton Abbot, and also Newton to Plymouth avoiding the steep banks by substantial earthworks and tunneling. It was proposed a bit too early, around 1900, before the summer holiday traffic skyrocketed. Had it been proposed again in 1930 it would have stood a better chance.

Was the 30s DAL proposal ( which got relatively far in the planning stage, I remember ) taken from earlier proposals to de-kink the line? I'd always assumed it was a fresh take. A very great pity Exeter-Plymouth wasn't sorted out when the govt was offering to pay for it...

Northern Heights - Not technically a pre-nationalisation scheme but I have included it because if it had gone ahead the Northern City Line would be firmly part of the Underground, so the 1970s Great Northern electrification might not have happened - or in a different way if the curves under King's Cross were retained. Could we have seen Thameslink evolve differently in the 1980s with the Great Northern inner suburban services alongside the Midland Mainline ones running through London with more Midland Mainline services staying at St Pancras (say Luton/Bedford services)?

I've thought about that one before - there are a bunch of possibilities, the tube could have been cut back to Finsbury Park & the NC handed over to BR as it was, or the entire section to Highgate handed over given it was full size anyway ( or even not handed over & LT run it with sub-surface stock ). I think the Northern line would have been a bit of a nightmare to manage if it wasn't split up.

Did the LBSCR ever propose extending it's AC system? *that* could have had major effects.

 

[Rescars]

I wonder what might have happened if the GWR had been able to continue its work on gas turbines and/or Bulleid had more time to develop the Leader concept on the Southern.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The Furness Railway had a plan to cross the Duddon estuary directly betweem Askam in Furness and Millom, but I believe they were short of the capital needed. It would have taken about 20 minutes off the journey north from Barrow.

The 2km viaduct was being contemplated back in the late 1840s, wasn't it, so certainly pre-nationalisation!

 

[Ken H]

Was the 30s DAL proposal ( which got relatively far in the planning stage, I remember ) taken from earlier proposals to de-kink the line? I'd always assumed it was a fresh take. A very great pity Exeter-Plymouth wasn't sorted out when the govt was offering to pay for it...



I've thought about that one before - there are a bunch of possibilities, the tube could have been cut back to Finsbury Park & the NC handed over to BR as it was, or the entire section to Highgate handed over given it was full size anyway ( or even not handed over & LT run it with sub-surface stock ). I think the Northern line would have been a bit of a nightmare to manage if it wasn't split up.

Did the LBSCR ever propose extending it's AC system? *that* could have had major effects.

LBSCR AC system was killed by grouping. One view was that the Southern Railway was the LSWR with the other companies taken over. So the LSWR 3rd rail DC system was adopted.