Can and will train seats become comfortable again?

[Bletchleyite]

As far as the IEP stock goes, so much was spent on persuading Hitachi to develop a bi-mode trains with a rather expensice maintenance regime that they must have tought 'lets not ice the cake too much with expensive seats and accoutrements on dimmed lighting and certainly acouple of extra carriages'. What's actually there does after all meet the requirement to carry passengers safely for over 400 miles and do after all meet the legal safety requirements. All this harping back to previous generations of trains is pointless as they were provisioned in a different era, over 30 years ago for the Mk1Vs and 45 years ago for the ECML Mk111 stock! The railway industry was very different then.

The seats are awful, certainly, but the legroom is generous, and that does show that at least some thought went into comfort. They could easily have packed an extra 2-3 rows in if legroom as per say the Voyager was acceptable.

 

[AM9]

The seats are awful, certainly, but the legroom is generous, and that does show that at least some thought went into comfort. They could easily have packed an extra 2-3 rows in if legroom as per say the Voyager was acceptable.

I've found the Penzance 802s OK, - I actually travelled to St Erth so that's just under 5 hrs.

 

[ricj]

I've heard all the reasoning and arguments about cost etc but I still can't think of any reason why passenger comfort is seemingly such a low priority on long distance train journeys in the current era!? I totally appreciate what these new trains are replacing is from a different era but I don't see what that has to do with anything? Once again, shouldn't there be an evolution from the old rather than a devolution?! Especially as it's not cheap at all to take the train.

I guess they're no longer 'new'' trains but it's the same when I travel on the XC Voyagers and have often found myself uncomfortable and without anything to eat or drink for an over 6 hour journey. Surely the provider of the longest train journey in the UK could make the passenger experience more pleasant? Just the basic concept of a decent buffet car being out of the question when you're on a train for hours and hours says it all really. At least on those things the older seating is more comfortable and the lighting is slightly more pleasant and less headache inducing on a night time journey though.

I guess since I became self employed a year ago, I've been doing a LOT of train travel so it's really hit home to me more than ever, just how bad it is on so many levels. And I used to really enjoy travelling by train.

 

[moonarrow458]

Given how much comfier trains in Europe are especially long distance trains such as Deutschebahns ICEs and ICs, and SJ (Swedens) X2000 and X3000 trains it is beyond me why we cant have likewise comfortable seats. The IET seats on GWR and LNER are abhorrent, i will now avoid LNER (except their 225 sets) and will gladly take Lumo, or risk my chances on Grand Central who at least have comfy seats. And as for GWR, National Express get my custom instead, as despite coaches generally being inferior to trains, compared to an IET a batuonal express coach is miles better, dimmed lighting at night, comfortable seats and a darnsight cheaper.

So given Europe can have comfirtable train seats i suspect it is a matter of costcutting in this country where we see the price of everything and the value of nothing.

As an aside, the comfiest rolling stock has to be the 168s or 175s, but a 458 seat, 180 seat, 222 seat do a pretty good job, and the 379s/172s are an excellent modern day seat design for regional/commuter trains

 

[jan5468]

Does anyone know the reason why Northern decided to leave the original seats in the 3 car 158's when all the 2 car units had the new type fitted?

 

[AM9]

Given how much comfier trains in Europe are especially long distance trains such as Deutschebahns ICEs and ICs, and SJ (Swedens) X2000 and X3000 trains it is beyond me why we cant have likewise comfortable seats. The IET seats on GWR and LNER are abhorrent, i will now avoid LNER (except their 225 sets) and will gladly take Lumo, or risk my chances on Grand Central who at least have comfy seats. And as for GWR, National Express get my custom instead, as despite coaches generally being inferior to trains, compared to an IET a batuonal express coach is miles better, dimmed lighting at night, comfortable seats and a darnsight cheaper.

So given Europe can have comfirtable train seats i suspect it is a matter of costcutting in this country where we see the price of everything and the value of nothing.

As an aside, the comfiest rolling stock has to be the 168s or 175s, but a 458 seat, 180 seat, 222 seat do a pretty good job, and the 379s/172s are an excellent modern day seat design for regional/commuter trains

If you cherry pick European railways to compare with the UK offering, you need to consider the whole structure of railways in those countries with what we have here, and to a degree how public transport in general is regarded by both governments and the electorate. There is no equality in the attitude to railways so the comforts of individual passengers varies from country to country. In many ways so does the behaviour of their passengers.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I've heard all the reasoning and arguments about cost etc but I still can't think of any reason why passenger comfort is seemingly such a low priority on long distance train journeys in the current era!? I totally appreciate what these new trains are replacing is from a different era but I don't see what that has to do with anything? Once again, shouldn't there be an evolution from the old rather than a devolution?! Especially as it's not cheap at all to take the train.

I guess they're no longer 'new'' trains but it's the same when I travel on the XC Voyagers and have often found myself uncomfortable and without anything to eat or drink for an over 6 hour journey. Surely the provider of the longest train journey in the UK could make the passenger experience more pleasant? Just the basic concept of a decent buffet car being out of the question when you're on a train for hours and hours says it all really. At least on those things the older seating is more comfortable and the lighting is slightly more pleasant and less headache inducing on a night time journey though.

I guess since I became self employed a year ago, I've been doing a LOT of train travel so it's really hit home to me more than ever, just how bad it is on so many levels. And I used to really enjoy travelling by train.

The DfT barely seem to want to run a railway, never mind make it comfortable.

 

[jayah]

What is often funny is that once people are familiar with seats and they start to get a bit softer, people don't object to them as much. In any case, a lot of the views on different types of seats is subjective. Some people like them, some don't.

This isn't really true. The Class 800s have degraded from bad to worse, while the Thameslink remain consistently dismal.

Voyagers which had a bad rap when new, have been elevated only in relative terms, they are now practically armchairs when compared to most of the new stuff.

 

[Energy]

As far as the IEP stock goes, so much was spent on persuading Hitachi to develop a bi-mode trains

Persuading??? It was an open tender to the industry for a train supply agreement, the government got several bidders, but I wouldn't say they convinced anyone.

Hitachi made a substantial amount of their money on the government's variations of the contract.

 

[AM9]

Hitachi made a substantial amount of their money on the government's variations of the contract.

But all the focus was on the 'innovative' features of the trains, so they got whatever seats were coming that way. The root of the problem is the UK attitude to rail as a mode of transport by the Government and a fair proportion of the electorate. Others compare individual details to their corresponding details on othere European system , and I manitain that it depends entirely on the respective governmental and society's attitude to rail matter in general.

 

[vicbury]

To answer the original question in this thread, I would suggest that train seats have become more comfortable in recent years.

Older seats seem to have been designed solely for the comfort of 6ft males whereas newer seats, such as on GWR's Hitachis, seem better for more body types. I prefer a supportive seat, and I was pleased when GWR replaced the absurdly soft seat cushions on the Class 158s. The worst seats I have experienced in recent years were in the ex-first class on TfW's Class 170s, designed seemingly for giants.

Many older seats also, for me, have excessive curvature in the seat backs which I find rather uncomfortable. If we look to desk chairs designed for prolonged use, most will be relatively firm and not sink-in rather than sofas designed for more occasional use.

But all of the above is just my opinion. Appreciate many people would rather softer more cosseting seats!

 

[Bikeman78]

If you cherry pick European railways to compare with the UK offering, you need to consider the whole structure of railways in those countries with what we have here, and to a degree how public transport in general is regarded by both governments and the electorate. There is no equality in the attitude to railways so the comforts of individual passengers varies from country to country. In many ways so does the behaviour of their passengers.

To use Belgium as an example, prior to 1990 second class seats were basically hard benches. Ironically their seats got softer as ours got harder. There seems to be a lot less yobby/drunken behaviour there too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To use Belgium as an example, prior to 1990 second class seats were basically hard benches. Ironically their seats got softer as ours got harder. There seems to be a lot less yobby/drunken behaviour there too.

The seats in their modern double deckers and Desiros are basically a type of ironing board, though.

 

[Bikeman78]

The seats in their modern double deckers and Desiros are basically a type of ironing board, though.

I avoid the Desiros so I can't really comment. The M6 decker are definitely springy. Not sure about the newer M7. I will investigate next year.

 

[WarrenTManager]

There’s a pair of 701 seats in one of the meeting rooms at work and I had to sit on one of them for bar a 5 minute break between, two meetings that took best part of 2 hours. Felt ok to me.

 

[superalbs]

There’s a pair of 701 seats in one of the meeting rooms at work and I had to sit on one of them for bar a 5 minute break between, two meetings that took best part of 2 hours. Felt ok to me.

The 701 seats are the fourth gen ironing board, same as used on Heathrow 387s. I seem to remember being quite a fan, though it has been a while.

 

[Krokodil]

I guess they're no longer 'new'' trains but it's the same when I travel on the XC Voyagers and have often found myself uncomfortable and without anything to eat or drink for an over 6 hour journey. Surely the provider of the longest train journey in the UK could make the passenger experience more pleasant? Just the basic concept of a decent buffet car being out of the question when you're on a train for hours and hours says it all really.

The core issue is lack of capacity. Many people won't get near a seat in the first place and the buffets were removed to provide more luggage room. Ordering four car Voyagers was a catastrophic mistake.

 

[gomango]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet but Scotrail First Class on the Hst has very nice seats

 

[JonathanH]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet but Scotrail First Class on the Hst has very nice seats

I've never really liked them. They look as if they should be soft and comfortable, but the seat base doesn't have enough cushioning to be an actual armchair. Moreover, the covering can be slippery and cold.

 

[gomango]

I've never really liked them. They look as if they should be soft and comfortable, but the seat base doesn't have enough cushioning to be an actual armchair. Moreover, the covering can be slippery and cold.

In my opinion they are very comfortable and great for a 2-4 hour journey

 

[Taunton]

Ian Walmsley in Modern Railways has been scathing on multiple occasions about TOCs selecting seats, and how the chief exec might come along, demand which of the samples laid out was cheapest, sit in it for 10 seconds, and say "that one". Being a longstanding rolling stock design senior, one gets the impression this was based on witnessing one (possibly more) actual incidents.

The stuff about fireproofing as a fiction. It is quite possible to have comfortable, fireproof materials. The most common issue is insufficient thickness of the padding material. There is a fractional weight and cost saving in providing less and less of this.

I do recall a day at Didcot museum. On their little operational line they were using one of the GWR 1930s excursion stock, which was intended at the time only for the cheapest fare traffic, now nicely restored to original spec. Family opposite said how comfortable it was, in comparison to the new train they had recently taken up to Paddington, and how they wished these were now used instead. It was of course 80 years old, and had spent most of that life stored outdoors ...

 

[Ayman Ilham]

On a two and a half hour trip to the Lake District from Euston the refurbed Pendolino seats were very hard and uncomfortable, the spongy pre refurb seats were far superior. It's all down to cost, a comfortable seat that complies with fire regulations is more expensive, so it's not the fire regulations themselves.

Interesting how subjective the views are between all theses seats. Personally I found that the refurb Pendolino seats (which I've travelled on a lot between Preston and Edinburgh or London, both around 2h20m), despite being noticeably harder than the original seats, are superior in every other way: more spacious, better legroom, shaped better and winged headrests are a welcome addition. Cost is one thing, but also the ability to cram in more seats without compromising legroom, which is exactly what the thinner seats achieve.

Similarly the Thameslink 700 ironing boards are ok on shorter routes, but are a bit grim on longer journeys.

I agree. Luckily, there's always declassified first class at the back for those making journeys well over an hour, like when I rode one from London St Pancras to Brighton. They're definitely a godsend for anyone travelling all the way from somewhere like Cambridge through to Gatwick or Brighton.

 

[Wolfie]

Interesting how subjective the views are between all theses seats. Personally I found that the refurb Pendolino seats (which I've travelled on a lot between Preston and Edinburgh or London, both around 2h20m), despite being noticeably harder than the original seats, are superior in every other way: more spacious, better legroom, shaped better and winged headrests are a welcome addition. Cost is one thing, but also the ability to cram in more seats without compromising legroom, which is exactly what the thinner seats achieve.

I agree. Luckily, there's always declassified first class at the back for those making journeys well over an hour, like when I rode one from London St Pancras to Brighton. They're definitely a godsend for anyone travelling all the way from somewhere like Cambridge through to Gatwick or Brighton.

Re your first para indeed it is subjective. Add me to the list of those who actively detests the new Pendolino standard class seats. I have had previously spinal issues, including surgery, and could not find a comfortable position. Also the headrests are awful being too low for anyone tall.

 

[devon_belle]

I'll take a rock hard seat with armrests and legroom over a comfortable seat without, personally.

 

[Bishopstone]

I’m still of the opinion that if people are travelling widely and then giving feedback that ‘all modern train seating is uncomfortable!’, they should consider seeing a doctor or physio about underlying issues with hips, backs, hernias, weight etc. I know the IET seats aren’t HSL armchairs, but if they are supposedly causing agony after an hour or so, there’s probably something else amiss that’s worth a medical review.

I like my seats high, upright and fairly hard, though - with plenty of legroom. I sense a majority of forum opinion is for low and squishy, therefore misty-eyed about the 321s and Mk3s, for example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m still of the opinion that if people are travelling widely and then giving feedback that ‘all modern train seating is uncomfortable!’, they should consider seeing a doctor or physio about underlying issues with hips, backs, hernias, weight etc. I know the IET seats aren’t HSL armchairs, but if they are supposedly causing agony after an hour or so, there’s probably something else amiss that’s worth a medical review.

Such as a massive metal bar under my thighs? I don't mind hard seats, one of my favourites is the much maligned Fainsa Comrail ironing board, but the original Sophia isn't fit for purpose. TfW however appear to have fixed it with a different base cushion.

 

[Wolfie]

I’m still of the opinion that if people are travelling widely and then giving feedback that ‘all modern train seating is uncomfortable!’, they should consider seeing a doctor or physio about underlying issues with hips, backs, hernias, weight etc. I know the IET seats aren’t HSL armchairs, but if they are supposedly causing agony after an hour or so, there’s probably something else amiss that’s worth a medical review.

I like my seats high, upright and fairly hard, though - with plenty of legroom. I sense a majority of forum opinion is for low and squishy, therefore misty-eyed about the 321s and Mk3s, for example.

I hated all varieties of MK3 seating too....

 

[AdamWW]

I’m still of the opinion that if people are travelling widely and then giving feedback that ‘all modern train seating is uncomfortable!’, they should consider seeing a doctor or physio about underlying issues with hips, backs, hernias, weight etc.

Even if they don't have any problems with airliner seats, coach seats, bus seats, car seats.....?

 

[superalbs]

Even if they don't have any problems with airliner seats, coach seats, bus seats, car seats.....?

I love the suggestion that we should blame the passenger, instead of the cheap and nasty railways.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hated all varieties of MK3 seating too....

The IC70 was a terrible seat. Narrow, fixed armrests and thick back so poor legroom.