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Merseyrail Expansion

Fawkes Cat

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. But nevertheless £100 million seems eyewateringly expensive to us mortals.
You know the thread in Disputes where 'the system ' was apparently asking for a settlement in excess of ten thousand pounds? It's possible that this is the same - realistically it's not going to happen so a ludicrously high figure has been set to make sure it doesn't.
 
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HSTEd

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Constructing that station around and above highly active railway tracks in a steep walled narrow cutting is not going to be a cheap or simple operation.

You could probably cut the bill in half or more if you closed the line for a few months but that's obviously impractical.
 

urbophile

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Constructing that station around and above highly active railway tracks in a steep walled narrow cutting is not going to be a cheap or simple operation.

You could probably cut the bill in half or more if you closed the line for a few months but that's obviously impractical.
Of course. It's hard for those of us whose eyes glaze over at amounts of more than a few quid to understand these mega-size figures. The work is not going be cheap or easy but the original estimates must have taken that into account: is there an impartial assessment of why the cost seems to have escalated so much?

Conway Park is similarly situated and must have involved similar construction work. How long did it take and how long did the line have to be closed for?
 
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I don't ride the City Line via Mossley Hill very much (once an hour?! what a disgrace) but when I had to recently, I noticed they actually used the slow lanes and slow platforms for Mossley Hill and West Allerton. Is this a new development, because I don't remember them doing this when I had to ride it regularly? ...or am I massively mistaken and having a "Bearenstein Bears" moment?
 

Jack Hay

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If once a hour is a disgrace, I'm afraid there are a lot of disgraceful lines in northern England.
 

lee orrell

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Ref , bootle branch line/ north Mersey line, there is currently land being cleared and access made over the track to develop between Harris dr & netherton way. This will mean the Aintree - bootle section will cease so any future hopeful reopening can’t happen. Network rail must have authorised this I guess ?
 
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If once a hour is a disgrace, I'm afraid there are a lot of disgraceful lines in northern England.
Yes, I agree. Is this controversial?
If there is anywhere once an hour is acceptable, between two close major cities with large metropolitan zones is NOT it.

Ref , bootle branch line/ north Mersey line, there is currently land being cleared and access made over the track to develop between Harris dr & netherton way. This will mean the Aintree - bootle section will cease so any future hopeful reopening can’t happen. Network rail must have authorised this I guess ?
Do you have a source for this? (I don't disbelieve you, by the way. I'm just curious.)
This is quite upsetting, given how many rail links Liverpool could desperately do with having back but have been sold off to build bloody houses on them... that action cannot be undone.
Even just running heritage trains on it would be much more productive and useful than housing...
Well, for everyone but rich landlords and property developers, eh? Their money spends well in parliament, I'm sure.
 

BrianW

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Yes, I agree. Is this controversial?
If there is anywhere once an hour is acceptable, between two close major cities with large metropolitan zones is NOT it.


Do you have a source for this? (I don't disbelieve you, by the way. I'm just curious.)
This is quite upsetting, given how many rail links Liverpool could desperately do with having back but have been sold off to build bloody houses on them... that action cannot be undone.
Even just running heritage trains on it would be much more productive and useful than housing...
Well, for everyone but rich landlords and property developers, eh? Their money spends well in parliament, I'm sure.
I agree that 1tph for a 'metro' is not likely to encourage business.

Regarding 'bloody houses'- do Liverpool folk not need new homes?
 

lee orrell

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All,there was a local residents group (orrell thorn) meeting regarding the clearance only this week ,maybe this site clearance isn’t for houses as there’s talk of a tip or other. My question isn’t really regarding the development of homes which are needed but the entry to the site can only be reached by going over the existing track, which must be authorised? The old siding’s here still has track in place which can now be seen due to clearance and it’s the area I was curious regards as the existing Aintree to bootle line could still be kept if there was other acces points. The long term Liverpool authority review states this line is in plans for future review. Add to this both football stadiums could both be along this route heading into Liverpool , the proximity to switch island , there is a case here to take vehicles off the road nearer to the city. https://api.liverpoolcityregion-ca.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/LCRCA_RAIL_STRATEGY_MAY18.pdf
 

stevieinselby

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This is a huge understatement! Plenty of people commute from Burscough Bridge, Parbold, Appley Bridge and Gathurst to Manchester: they would gain absolutely nothing from an enforced change in Wigan and losing through operation would lead to many of them driving to a Manchester-connected railhead instead. The loss of through services to Southport from the Atherton line would also drive what day-tripper traffic exists away from the railway.

As for the Kirkby route a similar argument exists regarding commuting from Orrell and Pemberton to Manchester as well as student traffic to Orrell from stations along the Atherton line. A Merseyrail extension might be worthwhile to Upholland or Orrell but definitely no further.

I don't expect the crayonistas on this thread to concede these points as having any value. To them I say carry on crayoning; real world transport professionals won't be swayed by such activity in any case.
There's some logic in extending the Kirkby line to Upholland. At the moment, from Rainford even with the change needed at Kirkby/Headbolt Lane there is much more demand for travel to Liverpool than Manchester – at Upholland the demand is fairly even, and by Orrell the majority are heading to Manchester.
Obviously existing services will influence travel patterns to some extent, but Skelmersdale is more closely linked with Mersey than Manc and so it would be good to extent the yellow trains there (even if only to Upholland, if there's no chance of getting a line into Skem itself).
 

lee orrell

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Yes, I agree. Is this controversial?
If there is anywhere once an hour is acceptable, between two close major cities with large metropolitan zones is NOT it.


Do you have a source for this? (I don't disbelieve you, by the way. I'm just curious.)
This is quite upsetting, given how many rail links Liverpool could desperately do with having back but have been sold off to build bloody houses on them... that action cannot be undone.
Even just running heritage trains on it would be much more productive and useful than housing...
Well, for everyone but rich landlords and property developers, eh? Their money spends well in parliament, I'm sure.
Added some info at the end of this chat,
I wasn’t debating the need for homes but the need to keep the line, help keep traffic outside the inner city etc.
 

Cowley

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Just to try keep this vaguely on topic, there’s an existing thread on the wider subject of housing linked below which would be better for those discussions:
 

YorkRailFan

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Metro Mayor Steve Rotheram wants to open three new Merseyrail stations by the end of the decade.

In May, people will have the chance to cast their ballot in this year’s Liverpool City Region mayoral elections. In the first policy pledge of his campaign for re-election to a third term, Mr Rotheram has announced his intention to build new stations at Woodchurch on the Wirral, Carr Mill in St Helens and Daresbury in Halton by 2030.Should the plans go ahead, it would represent each area of the city region having a brand new station under Mr Rotheram’s tenure. Two new stations have opened on the Merseyrail network in the last six years, with Maghull North opening in 2018. Last year, the £80m Headbolt Lane site welcomed passengers for the first time in Kirkby.
Cllr Paul Stuart, Wirral Council leader, said: “Woodchurch has long been identified as a prime location for a new train station and I am delighted that Steve has announced this addition to our local rail network. This project will support the wider regeneration work in Wirral to further improve access to public transport across the borough.

“Trains provide our residents with a vital transport link to the outside world and it is great to see Steve demonstrate his ambition for our area with an investment that will connect people to jobs, training opportunities and each other for years to come.”
Labour Mayor Mr Rotheram said any “modern, thriving region” is only as good as its public transport. He said: “Since I’ve been Mayor, I’ve worked around the clock to give our region what Londoners get to enjoy every day: a reliable, accessible, affordable and integrated network that helps, rather than hinders people getting about.

“But I know that in some parts of our region, Liverpool can feel as distant and inaccessible as London. I’m working to put that right, bringing local people closer to each other and to the opportunities we’re creating.

“My record is in stark contrast to the Conservatives in government. While they’ve stripped back investment in decent rail infrastructure, such as HS2, I’ve opened two new stations already – with one more under construction and three more about to join them.

“We’ve bought half a billion pounds worth of brand new trains and are taking back control of the local network too.”
Mr Rotheram added how he would seek to complete the Liverpool Baltic station by 2027 as well as regenerating Moorfields station and upgrading the entrances. Other proposals include plans to deliver a seven-day network with increased timetable provision at weekends and evenings by 2028.

Cllr David Baines, leader of St Helens Council, said: “Improving public transport in St Helens is a top priority for us all, and bringing Merseyrail here is a key part of our ambitions. Carr Mill will be a game changer not just for the Haresfinch and Moss Bank area but wider communities too, connecting our borough to the Merseyrail network and making travel easier for residents.”
Cllr Mike Wharton, leader of Halton Council, added: "Over the past few years, we’ve seen how new train stations in our city region can be a catalyst for regeneration and connect people with opportunity so it's fantastic that Steve Rotheram has announced Daresbury is in line for a new station on the Merseyrail network.”

The Mayoral election will take place on Thursday May 2.

Hopefully these stations are built as they make a lot of sense, particularly Woodchurch, which makes the most sense.
 

8A Rail

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All,there was a local residents group (orrell thorn) meeting regarding the clearance only this week ,maybe this site clearance isn’t for houses as there’s talk of a tip or other. My question isn’t really regarding the development of homes which are needed but the entry to the site can only be reached by going over the existing track, which must be authorised? The old siding’s here still has track in place which can now be seen due to clearance and it’s the area I was curious regards as the existing Aintree to bootle line could still be kept if there was other acces points. The long term Liverpool authority review states this line is in plans for future review. Add to this both football stadiums could both be along this route heading into Liverpool , the proximity to switch island , there is a case here to take vehicles off the road nearer to the city. https://api.liverpoolcityregion-ca.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/LCRCA_RAIL_STRATEGY_MAY18.pdf
This subject has been covered in various places, mentioned on here too. The land in question as I understand is the old Aintree Sorting Sidings area between Netherton Way bridge and Harris Drive bridge, which does NOT include the North Mersey Branch line / trackbed which runs along side the area. For ease of reference, the attached image taken by me, although taken in 1995, the area on the right is the site of the old sidings.

51398565282_6e8034b9e8_z.jpg
 

lee orrell

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This subject has been covered in various places, mentioned on here too. The land in question as I understand is the old Aintree Sorting Sidings area between Netherton Way bridge and Harris Drive bridge, which does NOT include the North Mersey Branch line / trackbed which runs along side the area. For ease of reference, the attached image taken by me, although taken in 1995, the area on the right is the site of the old sidings.

51398565282_6e8034b9e8_z.jpg
Yes your 100% correct but the land as it stands can only be accessed by going over the track ( gates on bridle Rd, by the old wimpy building). Presumably there will be development of sorts here in time and this will use the same point of entry so the line couldn’t be future proofed as previously in the Liverpool city region rail strategy. The line further up has been cut due to a bridge repair over the canal near Merton Rd, so maybe the decision has already been made!
 

daodao

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Hopefully these stations are built as they make a lot of sense, particularly Woodchurch, which makes the most sense.
The proposal for a station at Carr Mill in St Helens is reasonable as it is on an electrified line with a half-hourly local passenger service direct to Liverpool city centre (terminating at Lime Street station). However, I don't understand the logic for the other 2 station re-opening proposals,

Woodchurch on the Wirral is on the ex-GC Bidston-Wrexham line with hourly diesel passenger trains run by TfW (not Merseyrail) that do not and cannot run directly to Liverpool city centre. This minor line has dismal future prospects and it would be costly and difficult to enhance the service. In addition, Woodchurch is on the other side of the M53 from this line and the only access possible is via isolated subways across a very busy junction (M53 junction 3) which has multiple flyovers.

Daresbury in Halton is similarly served with hourly diesel passenger trains run by TfW (not Merseyrail) that do not and cannot run directly to Liverpool city centre. These trains are regional expresses from Manchester to North Wales and there is already a nearby station at Runcorn East on this line. I am presuming that it is not intended to open a station on the nearby WCML, as there would be no suitable trains that could stop there. There is also minimal population living within close walking distance of any proposed Daresbury station.

In addition, TfW is of course primarily accountable to Senedd Cymru and not the Liverpool City Region mayor.

--------------------

In my opinion, the only possible Merseyrail expansion (as distinct from additional stations on existing lines) that could be worthwhile would be a re-opening of the disused line from Hunt's Cross to Gateacre as a single stub line with 1 intermediate halt. It could be served by the new battery electric class 777 trains running every 15 minutes from Headbolt Lane. It is only worth considering extensions that are within Merseyside and could enable frequent metro-style services from urban locations not currently served, direct to Liverpool city centre.
 
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that do not and cannot run directly to Liverpool city centre [you say this twice]
I don't think all lines must do this. Suburban lines that "circle" cities and then meet up with urban lines that do go into the city can have a lot of value, especially if the goal is to get suburbanites out of their cars!
 

Basil Jet

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Woodchurch on the Wirral is on the ex-GC Bidston-Wrexham line with hourly diesel passenger trains run by TfW (not Merseyrail) that do not and cannot run directly to Liverpool city centre. This minor line has dismal future prospects and it would be costly and difficult to enhance the service.
Currently every 45 minutes rather than hourly, with half-hourly proposed.
 

daodao

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I don't think all lines must do this. Suburban lines that "circle" cities and then meet up with urban lines that do go into the city can have a lot of value, especially if the goal is to get suburbanites out of their cars!
You must be joking. Traffic between suburbs is thin and dispersed, so rail lines (even light rail) cannot be justified, except in very large conurbations which incorporate major towns with significant focal centres, such as Croydon in Greater London.
 

8A Rail

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Yes your 100% correct but the land as it stands can only be accessed by going over the track ( gates on bridle Rd, by the old wimpy building). Presumably there will be development of sorts here in time and this will use the same point of entry so the line couldn’t be future proofed as previously in the Liverpool city region rail strategy. The line further up has been cut due to a bridge repair over the canal near Merton Rd, so maybe the decision has already been made!

As things stand there are no issues in initially gaining access to the land via the gates on Bridle Road but any development will have its own access from one of the roads nearby in due course The North Mersey Branch line as far as I am aware is NOT officially closed, just left dormant by Network Rail (or closure by being forgotten all about) but I think regardless NR would have to process a formal closure notice first anyway to dispose of it. One thing I would say that the whole line if ever, however unlikely, was reopened (from Bootle Junction to Aintree SA Junction) would have to totally relaid with new rail, sleepers and ballast on the trackbed, as the existing rails, sleepers and ballast are long pass their sell by date so it does not matter if some of it is missing or not or in some instances, buried in a forest of bushes and trees.
 
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daodao

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Which orbital route(s) in Merseyside would have sufficiently dense traffic that would in your opinion merit a new heavy/light rail service? I can't think of any. I would even question retention of the English section of the existing Bidston-Wrexham line north of Shotton steelworks.
 

Bletchleyite

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Which orbital route(s) in Merseyside would have sufficiently dense traffic that would in your opinion merit a new heavy/light rail service? I can't think of any. I would even question retention of the English section of the existing Bidston-Wrexham line north of Shotton steelworks.

Demographically it's no different from any other bit of Merseyrail. Give it 4tph to Liverpool and it will be well used.
 

daodao

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Demographically it's no different from any other bit of Merseyrail. Give it 4tph to Liverpool and it will be well used.
The Wrexham-Bidston line is a cross-border route run by TfW and is not part of Merseyrail. There are only 2 stations on it (other than Bidston) within Merseyside, both of which are poorly sited, and there is only 1 other station in England (at Neston). It is a fringe service (for which 4 tph would be overkill) on a bit of the former GCR that managed somehow to escape the Beeching axe, probably due to freight traffic, some of which still exists (just within Wales).

Trains can't run through to Liverpool using direct electric traction as it no longer permitted to electrify the line using the 3rd rail system, and it would probably be too long for battery electric trains to run end-to-end. I understand that the class 230 multiple units that TfW now uses on it employ diesel–electric, rather than battery-electric, traction.
 
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Djgr

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The Wrexham-Bidston line is a cross-border route run by TfW and is not part of Merseyrail. There are only 2 stations on it (other than Bidston) within Merseyside, both of which are poorly sited, and there is only 1 other station in England (at Neston). It is a fringe service (for which 4 tph would be overkill) on a bit of the former GCR that managed somehow to escape the Beeching axe, probably due to freight traffic, some of which still exists (just within Wales).

Trains can't run through to Liverpool using direct electric traction as it no longer permitted to electrify the line using the 3rd rail system, and it would probably be too long for battery electric trains to run end-to-end. I understand that the class 230 multiple units that TfW now uses on it employ diesel–electric, rather than battery-electric, traction.
But the Welsh government and LCR are both committed to developing this line.

The reason the passenger service survived the Beeching axe was very specifically to enable workers from Merseyside to access job opportunities at Shotton steelworks. Of course this is ancient history and Deeside Industrial Park is very inaccessible by public transport.
 

507021

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Carr Mill and Woodchurch make sense, not convinced about Daresbury. I think there are far stronger cases for stations at Beechwood, Town Meadow and Vauxhall. However, I do hope Woodchurch is the first step towards Merseyrail taking over the Borderlands Line and the residents of West Wirral (yes, that part of Merseyside which seems to get forgotten) getting the good quality rail service they deserve.
 

Mr. SW

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I would put more stations on the Borderlands Line.
Definite:
Bidston Village: South of Bidston Village Road Overbridge adjacent to Harthill Mews.
Woodchurch: Of course. See previous.
And a remote outsiders:
Deeside / Glandyfrwdy: South of A458 Weighbridge Road. To serve industrial/business area. Just inside Wales though.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I would put more stations on the Borderlands Line.
Definite:
Bidston Village: South of Bidston Village Road Overbridge adjacent to Harthill Mews.
Woodchurch: Of course. See previous.
And a remote outsiders:
Deeside / Glandyfrwdy: South of A458 Weighbridge Road. To serve industrial/business area. Just inside Wales though.
The Borderlands line is the one with the infamous Class 230 units. There is a long-running thread on this website on that subject which makes "interesting" reading. Timekeeping on that line is bad enough at present, without adding more station stops.
 

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