I am curious what 'subway' is that you are referring too please? Lime St Station to Liverpool Central - its all outdoors bar a few metres. Any subways that were by Lime Street Station (to St Johns Precinct) have long gone. No subway from Chester last time I was there. The only subways I know off, is the one at Moorfields Station to Old Hall Street and the other is from Lime St Station connecting the lower station for the Loop line with other entrance coming out at St Georges Hall. Puzzled!
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Merseyrail Expansion
- Thread starter L+Y
- Start date
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I was using the manky road subway by the roundabout in Chester as a reason why subways aren't good and why one shouldn't be built from Lime St to Central as someone was proposing.
However the one (edit: that you also mention) that provides the access from Lime St to Lime St Low Level (other than via the fare-dodger's lift) is still there, the other end of it is by St George's Hall (link is to Google Streetview of the entrance)...
Google Maps
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
www.google.com
...and that one is almost as manky!
Anyway I'd not intended to drag this onto a discussion of subways, I was just using a manky one as a reason why street level is the best way to walk Lime St to Central, no subway is needed to be built, and if you really don't want to there's always the Loop!
With a reasonably frequent Speke/Airport service (with possible extension to Ditton and Widnes), local services can be effectively moved to the slow lines and the fast line platforms at Mossley Hill and West Allerton can be quietly closed. Therefore any intermediate stations between Mossley Hill need only have two platforms. The fast line platforms at Parkway will have to be retained for interchange. The issue of the junction at Wavertree, where the slow and fast lines join and the depot line diverges will have to be addressed too.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Why close the platforms? This reduces flexibility in case of disruption. Just gate them off.
Ideal world would be to bring borderlands line into the network - at least as far as deeside- once battery 777s settle down.
After that, move sandhills to boundary street to provide easy walk to bramley Moore and support the growth in that area.
Extend Ormskirk out to Burscough, or perhaps even loop around to Southport. No point going to Preston
Identify a way to improve access to the airport and increase ability for trains to stop at South parkway
Re the loop line, it just doesn't make sense. Most journeys are in and out of the city centre hub, so not much call for that route. Similar for using the freight line and stop for anfield, I don't believe the route would match passenger requirements other than at a few specific times.
Next, increase capacity at central. Its dangerous and not pleasant.
After that, move sandhills to boundary street to provide easy walk to bramley Moore and support the growth in that area.
Extend Ormskirk out to Burscough, or perhaps even loop around to Southport. No point going to Preston
Identify a way to improve access to the airport and increase ability for trains to stop at South parkway
Re the loop line, it just doesn't make sense. Most journeys are in and out of the city centre hub, so not much call for that route. Similar for using the freight line and stop for anfield, I don't believe the route would match passenger requirements other than at a few specific times.
Next, increase capacity at central. Its dangerous and not pleasant.
People seem to get very excited about an airport ink. OK, being realistic means accepting that mass airline usage is not going to decline any time soon, but it is still a major contribution to global heating and making it the main purpose of a rail link seems counter-productive. The main reason for an extension from the main line should be to serve the community of Speke, which has a very large population mostly deprived of facilities and not least that of efficient transport to the city centre and elsewhere. Yes there are many buses, but they are also very slow.
Of course such a link should serve the airport as well but that shouldn't be the main rationale.
Of course such a link should serve the airport as well but that shouldn't be the main rationale.
CaramellDansen
On Moderation
The document I posted (#122) mentioned a possible path through the Alstom Depot that I agree with (thought Alstom might not!!).
I have took a little time to demonstrate what that proposal might look like!
Full-time crayonista, eh?
Purple is the proposed line, assuming connection via Wapping Tunnel.
Grey are (already-existing and modified) track for crossing over or for Alstom's depot.
Connection via widened Lime Street cutting would require few changes.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
We don't have the centrally-organised or labour-democratic or socialist or whatever kind of society that would let us poors make wide-reaching decisions like "stop flying except for connections that are otherwise impossible" ...yet.
The way I see it is this: if people are going to be flying anyway, I'd rather them get the train.
If they're going to drive, that's pollution. When they get there, they need to park; parking is a terrible and frankly inhuman land use (Find me ONE person who likes being in a car park) that often operate at massive losses, sometimes subsidised by or paid for directly from the taxpayer.
That's not mentioning that, if we somehow get some funding (or at least political backing) from the airport, we could have a greater chance of it actually being done, and we can serve currently unserved neighbourhoods along the way, including Speke! Personally, I don't give a toss about the bloody airport, but I feel otherwise the line might not be made! Perhaps you could propose a justification to Merseyrail to get to Warrington following the Mersey down the Fiddler's Ferry line, but it's not electrified past Ditton Jn, and Merseyrail have a history of not expanding very much... and doing the bare minimum when they do (see: batteries instead of OLE).
Attachments
Last edited:
I was using the manky road subway by the roundabout in Chester as a reason why subways aren't good and why one shouldn't be built from Lime St to Central as someone was proposing.
However the one (edit: that you also mention) that provides the access from Lime St to Lime St Low Level (other than via the fare-dodger's lift) is still there, the other end of it is by St George's Hall (link is to Google Streetview of the entrance)...
Google Maps
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
...and that one is almost as manky!
Anyway I'd not intended to drag this onto a discussion of subways, I was just using a manky one as a reason why street level is the best way to walk Lime St to Central, no subway is needed to be built, and if you really don't want to there's always the Loop!
Strangely the 'manky' Lime Street Upper to Lower Subway when I last used it a couple weeks ago was clean, bright and spacious with no unwanted 'smells' either, so not sure it's manky in that context (I think it's got CCTV too). We will leave the subject at that.
AlastairFraser
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Aug 2018
- Messages
- 3,483
Have you not seen Queens Drive in rush hour? There is definitely demand for orbital travel in Merseyside.
CaramellDansen
On Moderation
On a similar topic, bus lanes really need to be reinstated. The new lanes won't fix traffic (I'm sure we all know this by now) and it's just going to make buses worse by being stuck in traffic... Downs-Thomson paradox, anyone? It might make traffic jams worse. Good. We want driving to be as unfavourable as possible.
On a slightly less similar topic, I'm all for Town having more pedestrian streets and maybe even a low emissions / congestion charge zone.
AlastairFraser
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Aug 2018
- Messages
- 3,483
Yep, the bus lane removal was definitely a stupid move.
With the caveat that I'd say road based transit won't make a huge difference in most areas of Merseyside, tram and rail investment is what will make the difference.
John Luxton
Established Member
Fortunately not been assaulted and I would like to think it is a fairly rare thing. I would like to think that any member of staff be they railway or bus would intervene or at least summon help. If I found myself being present as a passenger if I saw something going on I couldn't and wouldn't just do nothing.
Close and demolish West Allerton. Close and Gate Mossley Hill for emergency use as being halfway between Edge Hill and Parkway.
The junction at Wavertree would be (and probably is, actually) a bottleneck as everything runs down to a single track before connecting the slow lines to the fast as well as acting as the southern entry to the depot. This connection will have to be doubled and moved north to between Wellington Road and Picton Road to make space for the proposed platforms for Wavertree Station and to enhance useablity.
If a connection to Wapping Tunnel is needed, then demolish the redundant ramp between the depot and the main line and the extend the slow lines over the site. This may need some minor track sluing, but the depot will remain largely untouched.
I also think a direct connection to the Airport is overstated, and having a station at Woodend Avenue, where there is space, and a shuttle bus will suffice as most of the traffic will be local, judging by the general feel of the area. And I have seen the report above, and quite frankly, there is little there that I hadn't already worked out for myself, and disagree strongly with the station proposals. It would involve so much work, destruction to the tunnel and playing around with the gradients.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If it would be a shuttle bus a nearer station gains little over using Parkway.
Agreed. Chester is much much worse.Strangely the 'manky' Lime Street Upper to Lower Subway when I last used it a couple weeks ago was clean, bright and spacious with no unwanted 'smells' either, so not sure it's manky in that context (I think it's got CCTV too). We will leave the subject at that.
CaramellDansen
On Moderation
Not once have I witnessed or suffered from assault or abuse on a bus where the driver stopped driving. There's a schedule he has to keep, and incredibly rarely do they perform these duties. This is not an attack on bus drivers, this is a critique of the way buses are run generally. The lack of a second staff member is a big enough blow to your argument that, if I were in your shoes, I wouldn't die on this hill.
Having seen plenty of arguments, abuse and assault on buses yet nothing more than arguments on trains, I'm having a hard time seeing from what perspective you're right or understanding how you came to that conclusion.
John Luxton
Established Member
I can't imagine a bus driver just driving on if a passenger is calling out for help. Some years ago I did read of an incident around my way where there was trouble on a bus and the driver drove the bus to the police station.
CaramellDansen
On Moderation
Isn't that survivor bias? You're hardly going to read about "fight on bus, driver did not get involved, situation resolved itself and/or left the bus" because... well, that's just an everyday occurrence on the 82.
Well at least the name has been sorted out (avoiding another Headbolt Lane where? scenario!)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There's certainly been a bit of debate over it - in my view it's quite a clumsy name because "Baltic" is an adjective being used as a noun. I personally favoured "Baltic Triangle" without the prefix.
Fawkes Cat
Established Member
- Joined
- 8 May 2017
- Messages
- 4,013
That ship, I think, has sailed some time ago in convoy with 'cathedral' <edit> and possibly in the same hold as 'Mediterranean'</edit>.
Perhaps concentrate your firepower on battles where there's some chance of winning - maybe maintaining 'criterion' as the singular of 'criteria'?
Last edited:
By the time it opens the name will probably have changed again several times. But I think 'Liverpool Baltic' implies it is a main city centre hub like Central or Lime Street. Baltic alone, or as you say Baltic Triangle, is better.
On YouTube. This may be of interest.
It's an official run over the Bootle Branch a few years ago about locating a possible Anfield Station, but it's a bit sketchy as to where they actually are, so hopefully I've identified some places correctly
00:00 Lime Street (Special train on Left)
00:22 Utting Avenue
00:45 Stanley Park Avenue South
00:54 Anfield Cemetery
01:17 Walton Lane
01:29 Site of Sperrow Station
01:50 Cutting NE of Melrose Road, Kirkdale
02:05 Cutting N of Kirkdale Depot
02:23 Southport Line S of Oriel Road, Bootle
02:27 On Southport Line: Kings Road at Balliol Road, Bootle
02:29 Bootle Town Hall
02:33 Lime Street
It's an official run over the Bootle Branch a few years ago about locating a possible Anfield Station, but it's a bit sketchy as to where they actually are, so hopefully I've identified some places correctly
00:00 Lime Street (Special train on Left)
00:22 Utting Avenue
00:45 Stanley Park Avenue South
00:54 Anfield Cemetery
01:17 Walton Lane
01:29 Site of Sperrow Station
01:50 Cutting NE of Melrose Road, Kirkdale
02:05 Cutting N of Kirkdale Depot
02:23 Southport Line S of Oriel Road, Bootle
02:27 On Southport Line: Kings Road at Balliol Road, Bootle
02:29 Bootle Town Hall
02:33 Lime Street
Regarding the subways in Chester city centre, closing the The Bars and Fountains Roundabout subways won't happen. They're the only way for pedestrians to traverse what are two busy junctions in a timely and safe manner because neither have any pedestrian crossings. It'd be easy to counter argue "just put pedestrian crossings in then", but that'd be an answer to a question which hasn't been asked. Those subways need tidying up, but I'm firmly of the view closing them would be a poor move.
Who on earth is doing these costings? That seems like an awful lot of money for this station (what was wrong with "Parliament Street"?) compared to Headbolt Lane.
Who on earth is doing these costings? That seems like an awful lot of money for this station (what was wrong with "Parliament Street"?) compared to Headbolt Lane.
Fawkes Cat
Established Member
- Joined
- 8 May 2017
- Messages
- 4,013
One of my many areas of non-expertise, and £100m does seem like a lot of money. But the site is in a (deep, stone) cutting in a very urban area: I can see that rebuilding it will be particularly challenging (= expensive) while Headbolt Lane was (if I've understood it right) at least open land even if it wasn't an untouched green field.
AlastairFraser
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Aug 2018
- Messages
- 3,483
I imagine a large part of it will be that land values are massively increased in the "Baltic Triangle", due to the redevelopment of the area (read developers buying and artificially increasing land value for financial speculation).
Another part will be the serious inflation in contractor costs since the business plans were previously drawn up.
There's not much land involved. Merseyrail/travel have already secured the site (and fenced it off): it is a small triangle (Baltic Triangle triangle!) alongside the side of the cutting. Most of the station will be sub-surface and the surface building will be, I imagine, mostly on a bridge over the tracks.
Constructing it won't be cheap. It's not so much a rebuild as a new work of civil engineering. But nevertheless £100 million seems eyewateringly expensive to us mortals.
AlastairFraser
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Aug 2018
- Messages
- 3,483
Hmm, perhaps I'm a cynic, but I think there is definitely some third party involved in inflating costs.
CaramellDansen
On Moderation
Something tells me most of that money won't be going into labour and raw materials.
I've seen a lot of spluttering about and bad excuses for why projects, especially HS2 and California high speed rail, cost so much in these two countries. It's shockingly simple, the money goes where money always flows: upward.