Merseyrail Expansion

[317 forever]

Maybe the Liverpool Lime Street - Runcorn - Chester service could be transferred to MerseyRail.

Runcorn is on the Mersey, and the other Liverpool - Chester service (via the Wirral) is already part of MerseyRail.

It is odd that this service is currently operated by TfW, as none of it is in Wales. Although I have heard rumours that it is due to be extended into north Wales, I am not sure whether there will be the paths to accommodate it unless services from Manchester or Cardiff are reduced.

 

[Statto]

Maybe the Liverpool Lime Street - Runcorn - Chester service could be transferred to MerseyRail.

Runcorn is on the Mersey, and the other Liverpool - Chester service (via the Wirral) is already part of MerseyRail.

It is odd that this service is currently operated by TfW, as none of it is in Wales. Although I have heard rumours that it is due to be extended into north Wales, I am not sure whether there will be the paths to accommodate it unless services from Manchester or Cardiff are reduced.

Non of that will happen as TFW are looking to extend the Liverpool, Runcorn, Chester service to Cardiff & Llandudno once resources are in place to do so.

 

[CaramellDansen]

Maybe the Liverpool Lime Street - Runcorn - Chester service could be transferred to MerseyRail.

How would any local services deal with Runcorn being on the network, with its big intercity trains and freight passing through?
I've been a fan of this idea, but without reserved track for Merseyrail trains, I'm not sure how you could do it without disruptions.

 

[8A Rail]

Merseyrail is already on the CLC line, at Hunts Cross, where every Merseyrail train in both directions crosses both CLC tracks thanks to an absurd track layout. An extension along the CLC would actually eliminate the crossing movement westbound!

So what you going to do if the MR line was extended to Gateacre? Does that eliminate crossing movements?

 

[CaramellDansen]

So what you going to do if the MR line was extended to Gateacre? Does that eliminate crossing movements?

I always figured this would be an interesting proposal, if rebuilding was ever required. This could completely grade-separate the lines.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Climate change doesn't justify a green light to all railway reopenings. The rather obvious public transport alternative to the loop line is buses. Its not clear why train is the right form of green transportation for the route. Orbital journeys outside of London are nearly entirely done by buses for strong economic reasons.

Because the existing bus alternatives are not used well, due to their unavoidably uncompetitive lengthly journey time.
The roads performing similar purposes (e.g. the M57 and Queens Drive) are partly congested as a result of the poor quality of public transport.

 

[CaramellDansen]

The rather obvious public transport alternative to the loop line is buses.

Have you ever tried relying on buses in that area, or buses in Liverpool generally? Three bus services have been cut from my area since 2021. They simply don't have the reliability, staying power or clear right of ways that trains do, among many other factors. I'm sure someone with a better understanding of the Downs-Thomson Paradox could comment about it at length, but that person is not me.

 

[Jack Hay]

So what you going to do if the MR line was extended to Gateacre? Does that eliminate crossing movements?

Sadly I think the idea of extending to Gateacre was abandoned before the Hunts Cross signalbox was built on the line of route. I don't think it is on the list of potential extensions that Merseyrail are evaluating.

 

[urbophile]

Because the existing bus alternatives are not used well, due to their unavoidably uncompetitive lengthly journey time.
The roads performing similar purposes (e.g. the M57 and Queens Drive) are partly congested as a result of the poor quality of public transport.

I wrote to Steve Rotheram after being stranded at Broad Green in the summer. No trains, no information about buses or signposting to bus stops, one bus a day (!!) from the nearest stop and poor service from most of the others (when I finally found them). A polite but basically unhelpful reply received eventually. Nothing will be sorted until the whole of public transport (including several bus companies, Network Rail – the station was being rebuilt – and Northern Rail/Trains, whatever it's called) is properly integrated. And dare I say it, directed by a more forceful personality than that of our current Mayor.

If Merseyrail were re-opened from Hunts Cross to Gateacre, it surely wouldn't be a mega-expensive project to extend that as far as Broad Green. The whole area is solidly suburban, so although not densely populated there is a lot of potential commuter traffic. The ability to reach Broad Green hospital by train from south Liverpool would relieve a lot of road congestion; BG could be a useful interchange between the Chat Moss lines and the CLC. OK, maybe not adding up to a 'business case', but a socially useful part of an integrated transport strategy. If trams were to be once again an option they could do the job instead.

 

[Meerkat]

Have you ever tried relying on buses in that area, or buses in Liverpool generally? Three bus services have been cut from my area since 2021. They simply don't have the reliability, staying power or clear right of ways that trains do, among many other factors. I'm sure someone with a better understanding of the Downs-Thomson Paradox could comment about it at length, but that person is not me.

For the cost of a railway extension and ongoing subsidy how much better could you make the bus service?

 

[Bletchleyite]

For the cost of a railway extension and ongoing subsidy how much better could you make the bus service?

Personally I'm of the view that the UK is incapable of this.

Anyway, the purpose of urban buses done right is to connect to rail.

 

[CaramellDansen]

For the cost of a railway extension and ongoing subsidy how much better could you make the bus service?

A railway built now will last basically forever. A bus service can be established as easily as it is taken away.
You can't really make a "good" bus service in the way you're implying, especially not by piling money into it. It will always be ruined by external traffic, and that very phenomenon is what I mentioned in my last message, as well as the inherent design of buses and bus routes, and their aforementioned fragility.
The only ways to improve buses are: give it a reserved right of way, to improve speeds and lower congestion / tie multiple buses together to get more passengers per driver / replace the dirty and polluting diesel engine with a clean electric motor driven from overhead lines / replace the inefficient rubber-asphalt contact surfaces with steel-steel. Oops, I made a train!

Give me a reason to not choose trains that aren't "what about the money?"
I reject the "think of the profits" argument because A) They aren't my profits, I don't care. and B) Shall we start doing that to the NHS public services, too, and end up like America? Human need comes first.

Anyway, the purpose of urban buses done right is to connect to rail.

You're damn right.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Anyway, the purpose of urban buses done right is to connect to rail.

What if the railway stations in this aspiration are nowhere near where the passenger wants to go to. In cases such as this, yet another bus service will need to be provided from the railway station to the eventual destination of the passenger.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyway, Hamburg, which is structurally and historically very similar to Liverpool, has a well used Ringlinie - and they kept their Overhead Railway too!

If it was opened as a Merseyrail service I'm certain it would do well.

What if the railway stations in this aspiration are nowhere near where the passenger wants to go to. In cases such as this, yet another bus service will need to be provided from the railway station to the eventual destination of the passenger.

In what way are Moorfields and Liverpool Central not where people want to go?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In what way are Moorfields and Liverpool Central not where people want to go?

My hypothetical passenger journey was from Crossens to Carr Mill.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I wrote to Steve Rotheram after being stranded at Broad Green in the summer. No trains, no information about buses or signposting to bus stops, one bus a day (!!) from the nearest stop and poor service from most of the others (when I finally found them). A polite but basically unhelpful reply received eventually. Nothing will be sorted until the whole of public transport (including several bus companies, Network Rail – the station was being rebuilt – and Northern Rail/Trains, whatever it's called) is properly integrated. And dare I say it, directed by a more forceful personality than that of our current Mayor.

If Merseyrail were re-opened from Hunts Cross to Gateacre, it surely wouldn't be a mega-expensive project to extend that as far as Broad Green. The whole area is solidly suburban, so although not densely populated there is a lot of potential commuter traffic. The ability to reach Broad Green hospital by train from south Liverpool would relieve a lot of road congestion; BG could be a useful interchange between the Chat Moss lines and the CLC. OK, maybe not adding up to a 'business case', but a socially useful part of an integrated transport strategy. If trams were to be once again an option they could do the job instead.

I agree on the integration point, but unfortunately, however well Merseyrail does, the national authorities will never countenance proper integration for PR reasons, ultimately.
As for the phased reopening, perhaps. Broad Green wouldn't be a bad interim terminus, but you need to go the whole way for the full benefits to be realised.

 

[CaramellDansen]

Broad Green wouldn't be a bad interim terminus, but you need to go the whole way for the full benefits to be realised.

Agreed 100%, plus bringing the CLC Extension line all the way to Aintree could once again allow intercity specials to get straight into Aintree.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Agreed 100%, plus bringing the CLC Extension line all the way to Aintree could once again allow intercity specials to get straight into Aintree.

Hmm, it's a nice idea - but I'm not sure today's railway has the self-driven responsiveness to be able to implement special services of that nature.
At least a large swathe of Liverpool would use the line travelling to the Grand National.

 

[Mr. SW]

What happened to the proposed tram network, and is there any serious proposals at revival? Or is it gone for ever, destroyed by the cackling, hand-wringing and cringing bean counters of government?

 

[CaramellDansen]

Hmm, it's a nice idea - but I'm not sure today's railway has the self-driven responsiveness to be able to implement special services of that nature.

What does this mean? (Genuinely.)
Do you mean profit-driven greed, or short-sighted bureaucracy? Or something else?

 

[AlastairFraser]

What does this mean? (Genuinely.)
Do you mean profit-driven greed, or short-sighted bureaucracy? Or something else?

Short-sighted bureaucracy, mainly.
The railway these days seems have a much lower threshold of effort, beyond which a plan just doesn't happen.

 

[urbophile]

Agreed 100%, plus bringing the CLC Extension line all the way to Aintree could once again allow intercity specials to get straight into Aintree.

But wouldn't that be compromising the self-contained nature of Merseyrail by importing delays from outside the system?

 

[HSTEd]

What does this mean? (Genuinely.)
Do you mean profit-driven greed, or short-sighted bureaucracy? Or something else?

The stock won't be available unless you cut someone else's service to provide it.

Which is probably more trouble for the railway than its worth to move some people to Aintree once a year.

In addition, it would destroy the isolation of Merseyrail from the national network and import lots and lots of delays every time you tried to use it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The stock won't be available unless you cut someone else's service to provide it.

Which is probably more trouble for the railway than its worth to move some people to Aintree once a year.

Are you aware EMR already does provide enhanced services to the races, e.g. using a long Meridian instead of a couple of 158s on the Nottingham/Norwich service?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Are you aware EMR already does provide enhanced services to the races, e.g. using a long Meridian instead of a couple of 158s on the Nottingham/Norwich service?

This presumably means that some other service gets a couple of 158s instead of a long Meridian that day. And unless the proposal is for there to be daily intercity services to Aintree, it's hard to see how such a swap could work in the Merseyrail scenario.

 

[CaramellDansen]

Hmm, it's a nice idea - but I'm not sure today's railway has the self-driven responsiveness to be able to implement special services of that nature.
At least a large swathe of Liverpool would use the line travelling to the Grand National.

For one day of the year? Hardly an existential blow to Merseyrail.

Huh?? I tried to reply to Urbophile. Oops!

Agreed 100%, plus bringing the CLC Extension line all the way to Aintree could once again allow intercity specials to get straight into Aintree.

Following on from this, I agree with a blogger called Merseytart that Hunts Cross is a weird terminal station. If the Extension / Loop line (whatever it might be called) were to become a thing, the Northern line and Extension line should both terminate at South Parkway. There is little reason for anyone changing services to get off at HC when all of the services through HC *and* the services towards Runcorn also stop at LSP. Also, if the Airport line via Wavertree would we implemented, the Extension line would have no interchange with it or Runcorn services.

 

[Jack Hay]

For one day of the year? Hardly an existential blow to Merseyrail.

Huh?? I tried to reply to Urbophile. Oops!


Following on from this, I agree with a blogger called Merseytart that Hunts Cross is a weird terminal station. If the Extension / Loop line (whatever it might be called) were to become a thing, the Northern line and Extension line should both terminate at South Parkway. There is little reason for anyone changing services to get off at HC when all of the services through HC *and* the services towards Runcorn also stop at LSP. Also, if the Airport line via Wavertree would we implemented, the Extension line would have no interchange with it or Runcorn services.

That's right, HC is a weird terminal station now that LSP exists. When the electric line was extended to HC, it was the only available interchange with the CLC. And it was taken seriously. A facing crossover was installed on the CLC main line east of the station, and some of the fast trains westbound used it to call at platform 2 to enable cross platform interchange with the electric. With the increase in services on the CLC to four per hour each way, I believe this could no longer be timetabled. Of course, in saying that HC is a weird terminal, we should bear in mind the number of passengers that join the electric service at that station.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Of course, in saying that HC is a weird terminal, we should bear in mind the number of passengers that join the electric service at that station.

I think that is partly railheading to a more reliable, more frequent and cheaper service in comparison to communities served by Northern e.g. Huyton/Widnes/St Helens.

 

[CaramellDansen]

Of course, in saying that HC is a weird terminal, we should bear in mind the number of passengers that join the electric service at that station.

Surely, if an alternative arrangement was provided (e.g. reinstating the Hunts Cross - Broadgreen - Aintree line and integrating it into Merseyrail), people who would otherwise travel to Hunts Cross to use the service (as mentioned above by Alastair) would instead either transfer from regional services at South Parkway instead, or use the Broadgreen line to get a Merseyrail service to South Parkway or Aintree to transfer to get into the city? I think its popularity more represents an under-serving in the area and not its strategic importance.

 

[Basil Jet]

That's right, HC is a weird terminal station now that LSP exists. When the electric line was extended to HC, it was the only available interchange with the CLC. And it was taken seriously. A facing crossover was installed on the CLC main line east of the station, and some of the fast trains westbound used it to call at platform 2 to enable cross platform interchange with the electric. With the increase in services on the CLC to four per hour each way, I believe this could no longer be timetabled. Of course, in saying that HC is a weird terminal, we should bear in mind the number of passengers that join the electric service at that station.

Are many of them maybe using Hunts Cross to get a bus to and from the airport? Would diverting the Northern Line away from Hunts Cross to a new station at the airport not be an improvement (although presumably not for the good people of Hunts Cross).