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Merseyrail Expansion

Bertie the bus

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I respect your opinion, though I'm not sure how extending to Warrington is a sensible extension, but adding west Wirral (part of the Liverpool City Region) to the Merseyrail network isn't sensible. The city region itself should be the priority, surely?
I can see why you might consider Hunts Cross - Widnes to be preferable to extending to Warrington but a) Hunts Cross - Widnes wasn't in the list of options in the OP and b) extending beyond Hunts Cross does serve stations in the combined authority area and as stoppers currently start at Warrington it would make sense, to me anyway, to just extend to there if you are going to extend the Hunts Cross service.
 
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Shaw S Hunter

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If lines were extended to Wigan Wallgate, that and two other stations are within the Greater Manchester ticketing area for Rangers etc, so I hope that we could still use our Ranger tickets on the Merseyrail services in GM such as Bryn and Orrell!
I can imagine those in charge of fares at Merseyrail having a complete meltdown over that!
 

Howardh

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You mean Rainford?
I actually meant Ormskirk, not Burscough (!) using the old line, however Rainford would do bit not sure how close to the centre it could get; but if you just want a P+R that would do the job on the outskirts.
 

Bletchleyite

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I actually meant Ormskirk, not Burscough (!) using the old line, however Rainford would do bit not sure how close to the centre it could get; but if you just want a P+R that would do the job on the outskirts.

The actual proposal for Skem involved a spur from near Rainford which would follow a road alignment to the old Glenburn School site. This is fairly central. The BCR was poor though as pretty much everyone would reach it by car and can equally drive to Maghull North or Headbolt Lane, though I think Upholland as a proper park and ride site would work fairly well.
 

61653 HTAFC

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It never ceases to amaze me that we have people wanting to remove the artificial blocks at Headbolt Lane and Ormskirk, yet impose a very similar artificial block at Warrington Central by extending Merseyrail and Metrolink.

The actual proposal for Skem involved a spur from near Rainford which would follow a road alignment to the old Glenburn School site. This is fairly central. The BCR was poor though as pretty much everyone would reach it by car and can equally drive to Maghull North or Headbolt Lane, though I think Upholland as a proper park and ride site would work fairly well.
The thing with Skelmersdale is that it is by design a car-oriented town. The only way to change that would be to demolish the whole thing and rebuild it to a different design. Without taking that mammoth task on, a station somewhere near the Concourse or the Asda will be no better than setting up a local bus network designed specifically to shuttle people to and from an Interchange at Upholland or Headbolt.
 
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Bletchleyite

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It never ceases to amaze me that we have people wanting to remove the artificial blocks at Headbolt Lane and Ormskirk, yet impose a very similar artificial block at Warrington Central by extending Merseyrail and Metrolink.


The thing with Skelmersdale is that it is by design a car-oriented town. The only way to change that would be to demolish the whole thing and rebuild it to a different design. Without taking that mammoth task on, a station somewhere near the Concourse or the Asda will be no better than setting up a local bus network designed specifically to shuttle people to and from an Interchange at Upholland or Headbolt.

Maghull North is the closest time wise, so I'm not sure why they've favoured Headbolt.
 

Bertie the bus

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Maghull North is the closest time wise, so I'm not sure why they've favoured Headbolt.
Because it cost £80 million and they want to try and justify that astronomical sum?
It never ceases to amaze me that we have people wanting to remove the artificial blocks at Headbolt Lane and Ormskirk, yet impose a very similar artificial block at Warrington Central by extending Merseyrail and Metrolink.
Ignoring extending Metrolink to Warrington, which is a daft idea in my opinion, would extending services to Widnes or Warrington actually require buffers? The 777s are trains, not trams, and Northern already terminate services from Liverpool at Warrington.
 

Chester1

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Because it cost £80 million and they want to try and justify that astronomical sum?

Ignoring extending Metrolink to Warrington, which is a daft idea in my opinion, would extending services to Widnes or Warrington actually require buffers? The 777s are trains, not trams, and Northern already terminate services from Liverpool at Warrington.

One of the three recent options for new timetable to improve congestion in Manchester was spliting the CLC slow services at Warrington. An hourly all stops service between Oxford Road and Warrington Central is compatible with extending Merseyrail to Warrington Central as long as only the long distance services run through the station.
 

HSTEd

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It never ceases to amaze me that we have people wanting to remove the artificial blocks at Headbolt Lane and Ormskirk, yet impose a very similar artificial block at Warrington Central by extending Merseyrail and Metrolink.
Ultimately the problem is not the "artificial block", it is that it is in a silly position operationally.

Extending Merseyrail to Wigan means it would terminate at a significant transport hub and urban area.
The current situation just creates a messy branch line trapped between Merseyrail and the Manchester suburban system and not really served properly by either.

The CLC is also stuck because of intractable capacity issues in Manchester and Liverpool. Conversion to Merseyrail and Metrolink allows them to fulfill their primary commuter function better.
We already have an electrified line between Manchester and Liverpool for through trains, we don't need an inferior CLC too.

In disruption taking Metrolink to Warrington and changing to Merseyrail still performs the emergency "get me home" function after all
 

Tetchytyke

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Extending Merseyrail to Warrington Central should not present a huge challenge, there's no reason why the 'slow' trains offered by Merseyrail would need to be segregated from the fast trains. Having the 'slow' train from Oxford Road and the 'slow' train from Liverpool both terminate at Warrington Central should not present too much of a challenge. Although it would have an impact on the journey opportunities from Warrington West unless the 'fast' trains start calling there.

The biggest challenge, IMO, would be working out what to do with West Allerton and Mossley Hill.

As for an extension from Headbolt Lane to Wigan. 4tph to Wigan where there is then 4tph to Manchester is going to more than offset the inconvenience of changing for Manchester passengers.
Maghull North is the closest time wise, so I'm not sure why they've favoured Headbolt.
More space to expand at Headbolt Lane and also gives connections with Wigan. Upholland would make even more sense if Merseyrail ever does expand to Wigan, although I'm not sure whether there's the room/local support for a big car park there.

Extending Metrolink to Warrington would be dumb though. Keeping the mix of 'fast' and 'slow' trains makes sense.
 

urbophile

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The CLC is also stuck because of intractable capacity issues in Manchester and Liverpool. Conversion to Merseyrail and Metrolink allows them to fulfill their primary commuter function better.
We already have an electrified line between Manchester and Liverpool for through trains, we don't need an inferior CLC too.
The problem with making the Chat Moss line the only route for through expresses, means that Liverpool South Parkway would no longer be served by fast (or even through slow) trains to Manchester. A significant proportion of the passengers from Parkway rely on those trains for commuting or longer distance travel, and it would seriously add to their travel time and inconvenience if they were forced to travel via Lime Street. Parkway is used by many residents of affluent south Liverpool, who would probably rethink their travel habits and revert to cars if that option was blocked.
 

Meerkat

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The one I think is the most interesting is the Hunts Cross extension to initially Gateacre. As and when the ex CLC line is re-signalled which it will do eventually, therefore eliminating the Hunts Cross Signal Control building, then installing a single line to Gateacre will become relatively straight forward as it will not interfere with the existing mainline as it will be laid on the former four line trackbed.
Even if no extensions take place if those buildings on the trackbed at Hunts Cross are going it would make sense to swap the platforms around so the Merseyrail trains (and their 3rd rails) dont have to cross the CLC lines. Might need to bite a bit out of the southern embankment if you want to avoid remodelling the eastern end of Allerton depot a bit.
The biggest challenge, IMO, would be working out what to do with West Allerton and Mossley Hill.
Well (reaches for crayons) build an extension from Parkway to the airport and Speke…….

If all the 777s end up with batteries will they be tempted to remove bits of third rail for safety, deconfliction, and simplification - ie Chester Triangle and station?
 

HSTEd

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The problem with making the Chat Moss line the only route for through expresses, means that Liverpool South Parkway would no longer be served by fast (or even through slow) trains to Manchester. A significant proportion of the passengers from Parkway rely on those trains for commuting or longer distance travel, and it would seriously add to their travel time and inconvenience if they were forced to travel via Lime Street. Parkway is used by many residents of affluent south Liverpool, who would probably rethink their travel habits and revert to cars if that option was blocked.
This is obviously a risk of performing this converison, but we can get an idea of the scope of the problem by taking a look at the 21/22 Destination Matrix.

There are 718,189 journeys recorded from Liverpool South Parkway to the 172 stations that had more than one hundred journeys.
558,083 of those journeys are to stations on the Merseyrail network and thus don't really matter for this discussion. I know that's a bit of an iffy assumption for Liverpool Lime Street but the fast trains on the CLC only form a portion of the fast trains to Lime Street from South Parkway, so I think its defensible.

A further 19798 journeys are to stations on the CLC from Warrington Central to the West. So those would be joining the Merseyrail network, so they are not really relevant either.

That leaves us with 140,320 journeys to other stations.

Unsurprisingly the top entries are Oxford Road and Piccadilly, with the Manchester station group making up ~58,000 of the remaining passengers.
This is significant, no doubt about it, but it is still only a tiny fraction of the journeys made from Liverpool South Parkway.
The next three entries that make up the top five of the "Other" categories are Runcorn, Crewe and Birmingham New Street. A lot of the Other stations seem to be stations towards Birmingham and London, which I guess is not surprising.

There will be losses to stations like Sheffield et al from the Liverpool-Norwich trains, but the extra inconvenience will be far less important there.
I think on balance that the conversion is likely to result in major increases in net traffic, none of these flows are particularly large compared to the major increase in patronage we would expect on the line to Warrington from Merseyrail conversion.

Extending Merseyrail to Warrington Central should not present a huge challenge, there's no reason why the 'slow' trains offered by Merseyrail would need to be segregated from the fast trains. Having the 'slow' train from Oxford Road and the 'slow' train from Liverpool both terminate at Warrington Central should not present too much of a challenge. Although it would have an impact on the journey opportunities from Warrington West unless the 'fast' trains start calling there.
That would result in Merseyrail losing its primarily operational advantage and is unlikely to be popular with the train planners.
For the first time, there would be major exposure to delays introduced from outside the Merseyrail system.

Crossing the CLC at Hunt's Cross is one thing, but travelling for miles through multiple station stops and then terminating in shared platforms at Warrington Central is quite another. There isn't even really room for a bay at Warrington Central so you'd have four trains per hour terminating in the same two platforms as are used by fast trains.
The biggest challenge, IMO, would be working out what to do with West Allerton and Mossley Hill.
I'd suggest they would have to be picked up by the Liverpool-Birmingham trains operated by LNWR.
Extending Metrolink to Warrington would be dumb though. Keeping the mix of 'fast' and 'slow' trains makes sense.
If, as is likely, you have to put in buffer stops at Warrington, is there any point in keeping fast services to Warrington Central when Warrington already has sub-30 minute trains to Manchester from Bank Quay?
 
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61653 HTAFC

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Without a significant spend on capacity upgrades, the CLC won't be able to support both stopping services at Merseyrail or Metrolink frequencies, and a reasonable semi-fast service that runs through between Liverpool and Manchester. I could see the Merseyrail half working at a 30min frequency, with the other 2tph continuing to turn back at Hunts Cross (or with a speculative hat on, extending to Gateacre or the airport). But Metrolink's current rolling stock is unsuitable for the Eastern half, and in any case if some faster services were still running on the route then the Manchester stopper would need something suitable for shared running with heavy rail.
 

Bertie the bus

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If, as is likely, you have to put in buffer stops at Warrington, is there any point in keeping fast services to Warrington Central when Warrington already has sub-30 minute trains to Manchester from Bank Quay?
It isn't likely at all. In fact there is nothing to suggest buffers would be required. 777s share the railway with other trains. They are not trams that need separation due to lower crashworthiness and trains already terminate at Warrington Central without the need for buffers.
 

8A Rail

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Even if no extensions take place if those buildings on the trackbed at Hunts Cross are going it would make sense to swap the platforms around so the Merseyrail trains (and their 3rd rails) dont have to cross the CLC lines. Might need to bite a bit out of the southern embankment if you want to avoid remodelling the eastern end of Allerton depot a bit.

Well (reaches for crayons) build an extension from Parkway to the airport and Speke…….

If all the 777s end up with batteries will they be tempted to remove bits of third rail for safety, deconfliction, and simplification - ie Chester Triangle and station?
I see where you are coming from but to keep option open to go to Gateacre, that Hunts Cross West Junction would remain as it is, I don't find there is no choice otherwise it will cost considerable money which probably make it not cost effective.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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As for an extension from Headbolt Lane to Wigan. 4tph to Wigan where there is then 4tph to Manchester is going to more than offset the inconvenience of changing for Manchester passengers.
If there was a single station in Wigan then you'd have a reasonable point. Unfortunately that is not the case nor is it ever likely to be so. Although North Western and Wallgate stations are not far apart it is not a pleasant interchange requiring the crossing of a busy road, albeit a controlled pedestrian crossing is available, and is fully exposed to the elements as well as the potentially intimidating atmosphere during peak "social" hours (ie inebriated revellers). And despite various attempts to improve signposting it is not necessarily obvious to unfamiliar passengers especially when heading towards Wallgate. You'd be surprised how many utterly refuse to countenance any suggestion of making a journey involving a change of station!

Back in GMPTE days it was official policy to concentrate all Manchester services at Wallgate though it was undermined by the need to retain route knowledge among certain traincrews leading to some Sunday Manchester-Preston(-Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere) services running via North Western. The current electrification of the Westhoughton line will eventually make such a split in provision more or less permanent. In short services approaching Wallgate from the west really do need to run through to Manchester.
More space to expand at Headbolt Lane and also gives connections with Wigan. Upholland would make even more sense if Merseyrail ever does expand to Wigan, although I'm not sure whether there's the room/local support for a big car park there.
A Merseyrail/Northern split at Upholland could work quite well. There is land nearby whose current purpose is little more than to prettify an industrial estate and could easily be re-purposed for car parking. In terms of inconveniencing the fewest passengers with a forced change of train it is probably the best place to do so and certainly has the potential to act as a good railhead for at least part of Skelmersdale.
Extending Metrolink to Warrington would be dumb though. Keeping the mix of 'fast' and 'slow' trains makes sense.
What would make the most sense would be complete four-tracking of one or other of the Liverpool to Manchester routes. Failing that build the western end of NPR.
 

Tetchytyke

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If there was a single station in Wigan then you'd have a reasonable point. Unfortunately that is not the case nor is it ever likely to be so.
With the most recent timetable change, almost all of the Manchester trains are back to serving Wallgate and not North Western. I agree that this will change should the Atherton and/or the Westhoughton lines be electrified- assuming that Wallgate doesn't get knitting.

And yes, it's a surprisingly irritating station transfer given it's only a couple of hundred yards!
 

Bevan Price

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I know the Canada Dock Branch is an important freight route, all I said is I would like to see it and the North Mersey Branch re-opened to passengers. The prospects of one or both happening are miniscule to zero, but that doesn't change my opinion that they'd both be sensible and useful extensions to the Merseyrail network in the right circumstances.
On a historical accuracy point, it is the LNWR Alexandra Dock branch that remains open for freight. The Canada Dock branch was a short spur off that branch, and only a shortish walk from Bank Hall station. Canada Dock passenger station was destroyed by WW2 bombing, but freight survived until about the 1960s.

I am unsure if restoring an Alexandra Dock to Edge Hill & Lime Street is affordable. The journey times & frequencies from city centre to intermediate stations would not compete well with buses; several of the former station sites are not well located for local populations - and how much demand is there for travel between those intermediate stations?

See this Railway Junction Diagram map for details of railways in the area:

As for other suggestions in the area:

The CLC express services via Warrington Central are far too valuable to be sacrificed to improve local services with the existing infrastructure.
Ideally, but it would be very costly, new Loops (4 track sections) would need to be added to enable fast services to overtake locals, probably 2 each side of Warrington if you wanted Merseyrail-type 15 minute frequencies for local services.

There is insufficient population close to intermediate stations to justify electrification from Headbolt Lane to anywhere towards Wigan. Rainford has a tiny car park; Upholland has very limited parking space, all on non-railway land; Orrell has no car park. Buying land to extend car parks would not be cheap.

Ormskirk to Burscough Bridge; Burscough Bridge to Preston potentially a good idea, but restoration of both Burscough curves & signalling would be expensive.

Ellesmere Port to Helsby might be marginally justifiable - the population near Ince & Elton has increased in recent years, but Helsby itself is not huge. Stanlow is probably a waste of space unless land could be bought affordably for a big park & ride site.

North Mersey line (Bootle to Aintree) - dubious in my opinion - probably not enough people living closer to that line than to other lines in the area?

One that I have not seen mentioned would be to reopen the stations at Sefton Park, Speke, Ditton Junction & Widnes South, and run a passenger service to/from Liverpool Lime Street, entirely using the slow lines from Wavertree Jn to Ditton Jn - if paths into Lime Street can be found. I am doubtful if it would be worth extending to, and reopening Warrington Bank Quay Low Level. Central is much more convenient than Bank Quay for most people in Warrington, and has the fastest services to both Manchester & Liverpool.
Widnes South was much closer to the town centre than the current Widnes station.
 

HSTEd

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It isn't likely at all. In fact there is nothing to suggest buffers would be required. 777s share the railway with other trains. They are not trams that need separation due to lower crashworthiness and trains already terminate at Warrington Central without the need for buffers.
One train per hour terminates at Warrington Central.

Merseyrail would mean four terminating there. There would have to be several trains per hour through the station beyond that, probably including terminators from the Manchester direction.

It is technically possible, sure, but it would allow Merseyrail to acquire delays from Castlefield and the CLC. Merseyrail would never go for it. There is a reason they have, everywhere, enforced operational isolation from non Merseyrail services to the greatest degree possible. Does Merseyrail share a platform with non Merseyrail services anywhere else?

(EDIT: Platform 2 at Bidston with one train per hour from the Borderlands line, which is itself essentially totally self contained. I'm not aware of anywhere else)

With the most recent timetable change, almost all of the Manchester trains are back to serving Wallgate and not North Western. I agree that this will change should the Atherton and/or the Westhoughton lines be electrified- assuming that Wallgate doesn't get knitting.

And yes, it's a surprisingly irritating station transfer given it's only a couple of hundred yards!
Westhoughton electrification is already underway isn't it?
 

Jack Hay

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Regarding CLC extensions; I hear this is attractive to Liverpool City Region, partly because the next few stops east of Hunts Cross are in LCR, and partly because they want to free up paths on the Lime Street corridor for other services including freight. So the idea that's being evaluated is to extend to Warrington Central, where the infrastructure for turnbacks already exists. It most likely wouldn't be four trains per hour; more likely two. In effect they'd be diverting the Warrington-Liverpool stopping service from Lime Street to Central. Politically, however, it's awkward. Warrington Borough Council are actually against this, because they want any MerseyRail extension to reach Birchwood, to improve cross-Warrington connections. Here on this forum, we can all see how unlikely that is, because Birchwood station has no turnback facilities and no unused railway land on which to construct any, quite apart from the cost. Likewise, there would be big objections to any idea of splitting the service at Warrington Central and making the eastern side Metrolink. I can't see that happening because of the big loss of connections, and Greater Manchester's lack of intrerest in running Metrolink beyond the county boundary.

To add to the original list, one more extension that is being considered is Chester to Crewe. That would provide some very useful connections for south Wirral.

Regarding the trains themselves; others have said that the 777s can be fitted with pantographs, and indeed they can, but I'm told the design only allows for two power sources in one train, ands MerseyRail have committed themselves to third rail and battery. So it is hard to see how pantographs could be used. This is unfortunate as it rules out some interesting extensions. The other design point to remember is that the 777s have no toilets, so how loing a journey could they reasonably be diagrammed for?
 

390112A

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Regarding the trains themselves; others have said that the 777s can be fitted with pantographs, and indeed they can, but I'm told the design only allows for two power sources in one train, ands MerseyRail have committed themselves to third rail and battery. So it is hard to see how pantographs could be used. This is unfortunate as it rules out some interesting extensions. The other design point to remember is that the 777s have no toilets, so how long a journey could they reasonably be diagrammed for?
This was confirmed by the program director that the 777s can either be AC/DC or DC/Battery.
However I don't believe merseyrail has 'locked' themselves into one design by ordering 7 battery units as I think the other 46 should easily be able to be fitted with a pantograph if there is demand for it.
 

HSTEd

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Regarding CLC extensions; I hear this is attractive to Liverpool City Region, partly because the next few stops east of Hunts Cross are in LCR, and partly because they want to free up paths on the Lime Street corridor for other services including freight. So the idea that's being evaluated is to extend to Warrington Central, where the infrastructure for turnbacks already exists. It most likely wouldn't be four trains per hour; more likely two. In effect they'd be diverting the Warrington-Liverpool stopping service from Lime Street to Central. Politically, however, it's awkward. Warrington Borough Council are actually against this, because they want any MerseyRail extension to reach Birchwood, to improve cross-Warrington connections. Here on this forum, we can all see how unlikely that is, because Birchwood station has no turnback facilities and no unused railway land on which to construct any, quite apart from the cost. Likewise, there would be big objections to any idea of splitting the service at Warrington Central and making the eastern side Metrolink. I can't see that happening because of the big loss of connections, and Greater Manchester's lack of intrerest in running Metrolink beyond the county boundary.
Honestly I'm not sure how many useful connections the CLC line actually provides.

The fast trains to Warrington are a handful of minutes faster than the ones to Bank Quay, and the mix of stopping and fast trains means noone really gets a satisfactory suburban service.
Whilst a direct train from Liverpool South Parkway to Manchester or Sheffield or wherever is certainly useful, is it really worth condemning the urban areas between Hunts Cross and Manchester to not having a turn-up-and-go service they can use every day?

Many of the stations west of Warrington would go two trains to four, and the ones east of warrington would go from one or two to five.
 

507021

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I can see why you might consider Hunts Cross - Widnes to be preferable to extending to Warrington but a) Hunts Cross - Widnes wasn't in the list of options in the OP and b) extending beyond Hunts Cross does serve stations in the combined authority area and as stoppers currently start at Warrington it would make sense, to me anyway, to just extend to there if you are going to extend the Hunts Cross service.

I understand that, but what I asked was why you think extending to Warrington is a sensible extension, but bringing the western side of the Wirral peninsula onto the Merseyrail network isn't?

On a historical accuracy point, it is the LNWR Alexandra Dock branch that remains open for freight. The Canada Dock branch was a short spur off that branch, and only a shortish walk from Bank Hall station. Canada Dock passenger station was destroyed by WW2 bombing, but freight survived until about the 1960s.

I am unsure if restoring an Alexandra Dock to Edge Hill & Lime Street is affordable. The journey times & frequencies from city centre to intermediate stations would not compete well with buses; several of the former station sites are not well located for local populations - and how much demand is there for travel between those intermediate stations?

See this Railway Junction Diagram map for details of railways in the area:

Having lived in two separate areas alongside the line for around half of my life, I think re-opening it to passengers would provide a useful end-to-end rail link across a highly populated part of the inner city between Bootle Strand and Edge Lane. Edge Hill might make more sense, but I don't think there's enough paths along the line into Lime Street and it would also risk bringing delays from there onto the Merseyrail network. I don't agree any of the former station sites on the line are poorly located, all are in highly populated areas with easy access. However, I'll reiterate, while it's a line which I'd like to see passengers again, I'm confident what I've suggested will remain theoretical because I can't see it happening, certainly not during my lifetime.

Regarding CLC extensions; I hear this is attractive to Liverpool City Region, partly because the next few stops east of Hunts Cross are in LCR, and partly because they want to free up paths on the Lime Street corridor for other services including freight. So the idea that's being evaluated is to extend to Warrington Central, where the infrastructure for turnbacks already exists. It most likely wouldn't be four trains per hour; more likely two. In effect they'd be diverting the Warrington-Liverpool stopping service from Lime Street to Central. Politically, however, it's awkward. Warrington Borough Council are actually against this, because they want any MerseyRail extension to reach Birchwood, to improve cross-Warrington connections. Here on this forum, we can all see how unlikely that is, because Birchwood station has no turnback facilities and no unused railway land on which to construct any, quite apart from the cost. Likewise, there would be big objections to any idea of splitting the service at Warrington Central and making the eastern side Metrolink. I can't see that happening because of the big loss of connections, and Greater Manchester's lack of intrerest in running Metrolink beyond the county boundary.

To add to the original list, one more extension that is being considered is Chester to Crewe. That would provide some very useful connections for south Wirral.

Regarding the trains themselves; others have said that the 777s can be fitted with pantographs, and indeed they can, but I'm told the design only allows for two power sources in one train, ands MerseyRail have committed themselves to third rail and battery. So it is hard to see how pantographs could be used. This is unfortunate as it rules out some interesting extensions. The other design point to remember is that the 777s have no toilets, so how loing a journey could they reasonably be diagrammed for?

Crewe? How far outside the Liverpool City Region does Rotheram want to go? If the aspiration is to re-route Warrington services into Liverpool Central, then I'd like to know how they plan to solve the present problem of insufficient platform space to deal with the extra passengers. In addition, after what HST_Ed pointed out regarding the potential to inherit delays, I'm no longer convinced any extensions along the CLC route are a good idea if the decision makers want Merseyrail to retain its punctuality.
 

Chester1

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One train per hour terminates at Warrington Central.

Merseyrail would mean four terminating there. There would have to be several trains per hour through the station beyond that, probably including terminators from the Manchester direction.

It is technically possible, sure, but it would allow Merseyrail to acquire delays from Castlefield and the CLC. Merseyrail would never go for it. There is a reason they have, everywhere, enforced operational isolation from non Merseyrail services to the greatest degree possible. Does Merseyrail share a platform with non Merseyrail services anywhere else?

(EDIT: Platform 2 at Bidston with one train per hour from the Borderlands line, which is itself essentially totally self contained. I'm not aware of anywhere else)


Westhoughton electrification is already underway isn't it?

One of the proposed Castlefield improvement timetables split the CLC stoppers with 2tph Lime Street - Warrington Central and 1tph Warrington Central - Oxford Road. I don't think anyone thinks a 4tph Merseyrail extension would be viable. Changing the western terminus of that plan should work. I suspsect the decision to extend and risk imported delays would be a political and financial decision, not an operational one.

Mossley Hill and Atherton could be added to LNR services. Alternatively if there is some movement on NPR then a Warrington Bank Quay - Lime Street service could serve both stations in the medium term. The NPR section between Ditton and Warrington Bank Quay low level would be much easier and faster to build than Bank Quay to Piccadilly. It could be used for local services for several years. Pushing for the rebuild of the freight line as a phase 1 of NPR would be a good start.
 

Jack Hay

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Honestly I'm not sure how many useful connections the CLC line actually provides.

The fast trains to Warrington are a handful of minutes faster than the ones to Bank Quay, and the mix of stopping and fast trains means noone really gets a satisfactory suburban service.
Whilst a direct train from Liverpool South Parkway to Manchester or Sheffield or wherever is certainly useful, is it really worth condemning the urban areas between Hunts Cross and Manchester to not having a turn-up-and-go service they can use every day?

Many of the stations west of Warrington would go two trains to four, and the ones east of warrington would go from one or two to five.
If you are referring to Manchester-Warrington journeys, the CLC route is much faster than via Chat Moss to Bank Quay, and always has been. It's considerably shorter and it avoids the conflicting junctions at Earlestown and Winwick which can add delay. Nobody on the railway wants to mess up the Manchester-Warrington flow because it is very heavily used, so much so that premium fares are charged but they don't seem to drive away passengers. (Compare Warrington-Manchester fares with Warrington-Liverpool and remember that Warrington-Manchester is shorter.) The loss of one of the two hourly expresses to Warrington Central is regretted but there was no other way to solve the Castlefield congestion problem. The loss of the through train from Warrington Central to Leeds, another casualty of Manchester congestion, is regretted too because quite large numbers were starting to use the through service. The replacement Northern service from Bank Quay to Leeds via Bradford is not doing so well because of much longer journey times.
 

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