Bishops Lydeard - Frome/Westbury service?

[brad465]

Thinking recently about how the spine of Somerset could be better served, the titled service came to mind as a possibility. My idea is the West Somerset railway from Taunton-Bishops Lydeard would be upgraded to NR standard, and the latter station along with a new station at Norton Fitzwarren would be served, with both towns seeing notable housing developments recently. The service would then continue east from Taunton to serve a new Langport-Somerton station (something that is already trying to be pushed for approval), Castle Cary, Bruton and Frome, which would see the second platform reopen to handle extra train frequency. Ideally the service would continue to Westbury for better interchange options, but there may not be the capacity to do this given the increased freight demand and extra Westbury traffic.

The service would be hourly and would link multiple housing developments/expanding towns to the rail network, as well as improving frequency on a route which is poor for intermediate stations. Among hurdles that would have to be overcome, the proposed signalling upgrade between Cogload and Castle Cary would have to happen (currently 2 aspect only), the aforementioned WSR upgrade requirement, upgrading Frome station and GWR would almost certainly have to get increased rolling stock approved, given the current levels can't even cope with current services. There may also be capacity constraints if the all day hourly Weymouth services are approved, such that CLC-Frome/Westbury sees 2tph stopping services, 1-2tph Intercity and whatever freight demand there is on top. What do others think?

 

[dgl]

I bet go-op have plans for a service from Bishops Lydeard, they've had enough ideas for services in the area.

 

[Gloster]

I think you would have to have a station in both Langport and Somerton: the line passes right through the centre of both and would be in walking distance of much of both towns. Once people have to get in their cars to drive to a ‘central’ station they will often stay in their cars. I also doubt if you could justify an hourly service, more like two-hourly. Additionally I would reckon that you should take the service right through to Trowbridge as east Somerset looks more towards it than Taunton (unless things have changed a lot in twenty years), although Bath is more important. I would suspect that you have two flows of passengers, with the division around Castle Cary.

 

[brad465]

I think you would have to have a station in both Langport and Somerton: the line passes right through the centre of both and would be in walking distance of much of both towns. Once people have to get in their cars to drive to a ‘central’ station they will often stay in their cars. I also doubt if you could justify an hourly service, more like two-hourly. Additionally I would reckon that you should take the service right through to Trowbridge as east Somerset looks more towards it than Taunton (unless things have changed a lot in twenty years), although Bath is more important. I would suspect that you have two flows of passengers, with the division around Castle Cary.

I don't think the case exists for two stations. If I had to choose one I'd put it in the middle of Langport, which is larger when the neighbouring settlement of Huish Episcopi is added.

On the point about where East Somerset looks to, this idea is actually a combination of 2-3 potential passenger flows: I don't think there are many Bishops Lydeard folk going to East Somerset, but they would go to Taunton and connect for Bridgwater/Bristol/Exeter/London. Taunton-Frome would mainly be for the benefit of serving the intermediate stations, but if the flow comes into existence may become an attractive one in its own right. Really a service for all of these needs to pass through Taunton rather than terminate it, as both the east and west-facing bay platforms are poorly linked/located. As I mentioned I think extending to Westbury would make it more viable, which would allow for Trowbridge/Warminster and beyond connections, but this may need some form of capacity upgrade first.

 

[MarkyT]

I think you would have to have a station in both Langport and Somerton: the line passes right through the centre of both and would be in walking distance of much of both towns. Once people have to get in their cars to drive to a ‘central’ station they will often stay in their cars. I also doubt if you could justify an hourly service, more like two-hourly. Additionally I would reckon that you should take the service right through to Trowbridge as east Somerset looks more towards it than Taunton (unless things have changed a lot in twenty years), although Bath is more important. I would suspect that you have two flows of passengers, with the division around Castle Cary.

I fully agree a parkway in the middle of nowhere is a poor solution where more central locations are available. There's no choice at somewhere like Devizes. A problem at some historic station sites might be accommodating suitable car parking nearby. Some locals may also get agitated about new stations creating extra traffic in the towns, although people having to use road transport to get to a remote rural location may result in more traffic overall if some who might have walked end up driving or being dropped off!

 

[zwk500]

It's an intriguing concept - I would be very doubtful of anything west of Taunton happening unless it was a turnback platform for the new developments at Norton Fitzwarren. Terminating Westbury will certainly cause problems, although it may not trigger additional infrastructure. The big issue with Westbury will be connecting into a London service.
Frome would almost certainly need to be upgraded, although it's probably less work than upgrading Taunton-Castle Cary signalling (which probably needs something, although it might be more limited than a wholesale renewal).

As a new service, 2 stations would probably be fine, the bigger concern would be the size of the places each would serve - Langport and Somerton are both no more than 5k from the look of it, so unless you were planning to double the size of each (which I'd be sympathetic to, but suspect the Locals would be less pleased!), I don't see either really justifying themselves. And if both of those go, well you're not really adding much to anybody's travel options.

 

[MarkyT]

It's an intriguing concept - I would be very doubtful of anything west of Taunton happening unless it was a turnback platform for the new developments at Norton Fitzwarren. Terminating Westbury will certainly cause problems, although it may not trigger additional infrastructure. The big issue with Westbury will be connecting into a London service.
Frome would almost certainly need to be upgraded, although it's probably less work than upgrading Taunton-Castle Cary signalling (which probably needs something, although it might be more limited than a wholesale renewal).

The signalling system in the area is getting on for 40 years old now, the nominal life of such assets, and although many components will have been renewed routinely over that time, the underlying ecosystem of trackside cabling and equipment cabinets is likely to be getting rather tired now. A wide-scale renewal of those parts could provide an opportunity to split the long blocks, as achieved recently in Cornwall and Devon.

 

[eldomtom2]

Once people have to get in their cars to drive to a ‘central’ station they will often stay in their cars. I also doubt if you could justify an hourly service, more like two-hourly.

But, of course, if there isn't a train when people want to travel they'll also stay in their cars. Does anyone know of any studies on the factors driving mode shift? Certainly when people talk about transit nowadays frequency is often brought up.

 

[stuu]

Somerton would bring Street and Glastonbury a lot closer to a railway, so on paper it has more merit than Langport. Unfortunately the only likely location for station isn't very good for access from outside the town though

 

[brad465]

It's an intriguing concept - I would be very doubtful of anything west of Taunton happening unless it was a turnback platform for the new developments at Norton Fitzwarren. Terminating Westbury will certainly cause problems, although it may not trigger additional infrastructure. The big issue with Westbury will be connecting into a London service.
Frome would almost certainly need to be upgraded, although it's probably less work than upgrading Taunton-Castle Cary signalling (which probably needs something, although it might be more limited than a wholesale renewal).

I believe Frome and the line as far as Langport are controlled under the same signal centre/panel, so a good time to reinstate Frome's second platform would be at the same time signalling from Taunton-Castle Cary is upgraded.

 

[zwk500]

I believe Frome and the line as far as Langport are controlled under the same signal centre/panel, so a good time to reinstate Frome's second platform would be at the same time signalling from Taunton-Castle Cary is upgraded.

Yes, but if your proposal is the one triggering the upgrade, you'll need more benefits to cover those costs. Unless you get fantastically lucky and the renewal decides to reinstate double track on the Frome line as part of it's own project.

 

[MarkyT]

Yes, but if your proposal is the one triggering the upgrade, you'll need more benefits to cover those costs. Unless you get fantastically lucky and the renewal decides to reinstate double track on the Frome line as part of it's own project.

A renewal could only do that if there was an identified and funded need for more capacity/flexibility/resilience. It would be expensive with a new bridge over the A362 at the London end and access arrangements for a second platform. Renewal budget money can be a powerful tool, especially where there's an old overcomplicated layout that has potential for simplification. If junction track and S&T renewal dates can be synchronised, then a final layout solution may be possible that is much better optimised for current service patterns while also making unit cost savings. However, the Exeter and Westbury resignalling projects of the mid-1980s took place in a period when Government was demanding major savings in the industry and station and junction layouts were to be cut back dramatically from the former mechanical incarnations, some would say oversimplified.

 

[zwk500]

A renewal could only do that if there was an identified and funded need for more capacity/flexibility/resilience. It would be expensive with a new bridge over the A362 at the London end and access arrangements for a second platform. Renewal budget money can be a powerful tool, especially where there's an old overcomplicated layout that has potential for simplification. If junction track and S&T renewal dates can be synchronised, then a final layout solution may be possible that is much better optimised for current service patterns while also making unit cost savings. However, the Exeter and Westbury resignalling projects of the mid-1980s took place in a period when Government was demanding major savings in the industry and station and junction layouts were to be cut back dramatically from the former mechanical incarnations, some would say oversimplified.

Indeed, hence the 'fantastically lucky' part of the comment.

The Weston and Frome loops being singled has certainly held back later developments, as long as other various trimmings where mothballing might have been a more practical way forwards in the South West.

 

[Gloster]

I am not absolutely certain as I don’t have that volume of Cooke’s diagram, but I think that the Frome North-Blatchbridge Junction singling dates from June 1976 and so long predates the resignalling.

I think that the limit of Westbury Panel’s control is (roughly) just east of Somerton Tunnel.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

As a new service, 2 stations would probably be fine, the bigger concern would be the size of the places each would serve - Langport and Somerton are both no more than 5k from the look of it, so unless you were planning to double the size of each (which I'd be sympathetic to, but suspect the Locals would be less pleased!), I don't see either really justifying themselves. And if both of those go, well you're not really adding much to anybody's travel options.

5k can work if there's a hinterland - our town has a population of 3k, but its role as a local railhead gives it 260k passengers a year.

Somerton has good road access from Glastonbury and Street, which add an extra 20k between them. As ever, I suspect half the challenge is getting a station built for an affordable cost.

 

[MarkyT]

I am not absolutely certain as I don’t have that volume of Cooke’s diagram, but I think that the Frome North-Blatchbridge Junction singling dates from June 1976 and so long predates the resignalling.

The two layouts shown here are informative: https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S399.htm
I think the blurred date for the later one, already singled through the station, is 1970. Possibly acceptance lever working with continuous track circuiting between Frome North and Blatchbridge Jn, or tokenless block?

The signalling notice diagram for Westbury stage 2 is here: https://www.signallingnotices.org.uk/scans/97/no 2 diagram.jpg

I think that the limit of Westbury Panel’s control is (roughly) just east of Somerton Tunnel.

The Sectional Appendix shows the change of control to Exeter at the tunnel.

 

[Gloster]

The two layouts shown here are informative: https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S399.htm
I think the blurred date for the later one, already singled through the station, is 1970. Possibly acceptance lever working with continuous track circuiting between Frome North and Blatchbridge Jn, or tokenless block?

The signalling notice diagram for Westbury stage 2 is here: https://www.signallingnotices.org.uk/scans/97/no 2 diagram.jpg

The Sectional Appendix shows the change of control to Exeter at the tunnel.

It was Acceptance Lever in the early 1980s, so probably had been since singling.

 

[30907]

The two layouts shown here are informative: https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S399.htm
I think the blurred date for the later one, already singled through the station, is 1970.

I concur. I managed Yeovil PM-Westbury on a Southern Rover (technically off route) in summer 1971 and Frome was singled then.
On topic, the running time over the single section including the stop is 4min, so there isn't a capacity problem though timetabling might be difficult.

 

[brad465]

A business case apparently has been prepared to try and introduce mainline services between Taunton and Bishops Lydeard, with a desire to have Norton Fitzwarren served as well:

Plans to link West Somerset Railway to mainline services

The UK's longest heritage railway line could soon be directly connected to mainline rail services

www.somersetlive.co.uk

The UK's longest heritage railway line could soon be directly connected to mainline rail services under a new business case. The West Somerset Railway (WSR) runs between Bishop's Lydeard, a few miles outside Taunton, and Minehead via numerous small stations in west Somerset, including the coastal town of Watchet and the villages of Blue Anchor, Dunster and Williton.

There have been numerous attempts to reconnect the heritage services with mainline Great Western Railway (GWR) services at Taunton, including the trial of a connecting service between Taunton and Bishop's Lydeard in the summer of 2019. Now this dream is one step closer as a business case to reconnect the two stations permanently is finalised, with around £6m being sought for various improvements.

Transport campaigner David Redgewell raised the issue in a statement read out on his behalf at a Somerset Council full council meeting held in Bridgwater on Wednesday afternoon (July 17). He said: "There is overcrowding on the 28 and 28X bus services between Taunton and Minehead town centres, via Bishop's Lydeard, Watchet and Butlin's.

"What progress is being made with the Peninsula Transport board, Network Rail and GWR (which is soon to be nationalised) on reopening the Taunton to Bishop's Lydeard and Minehead railway service?" The 28X service was introduced by First Bus South in early-March to transport passengers directly between Taunton railway station and Butlin's in Minehead during weekdays, relieving pressure on the standard 28 stopper route.

West Somerset Railway PLC operates the current heritage railway service, leasing the line and station buildings from the council on a long-term lease which expires in 2088. The company currently employs around 40 staff and has around 800 active volunteers, according to its official website.

Cllr Richard Wilkins, portfolio holder for transport and digital, replied: "Regarding the railway line which links Taunton to Minehead, we are working with local interest groups who are developing a business case for a rail link between Taunton railway station and Bishop's Lydeard. This has been endorsed by Peninsula Transport.

"There are currently no proposals for a link beyond this, as the line is managed and operated by the West Somerset Railway." Retired Network Rail planner David Northey said that the main obstacle to returning mainline services beyond Bishop's Lydeard was the light railway order which was currently in place on the line.

He said: "There's a maximum speed of 25mph under the light railway order, but the principles of running a railway are the same. The business case will look at reconnecting, one stage at a time, Bishop's Lydeard to Taunton.

"We're looking at a modest investment of about £6m to upgrade elements of the signalling and infrastructure, and to pay for operating the services. If you can get a regular service between Bishop's Lydeard and Taunton, there are options to look at extending to Minehead on peak days when the WSR doesn't operate, such as Butlin's changeover days on Mondays and Fridays.

"We have real problems on the bus network and road network, and even if we only ran the train at 25mph it's still far better and quicker than the bus journey. It's a real balance between preserving the heritage and meeting modern transport needs."

While WSR services currently terminate at Bishop's Lydeard, there is an additional station on the line leading to Taunton, on the outskirts of Norton Fitzwarren. This station is only accessible from the railway line and is primarily used for railway galas and other special events within the WSR's annual programme.

There doesn't appear to be a reference to the now scrapped Restoring your Railways programme, but given future rail projects were not outright abandoned I presume this could still progress if the case is strong enough.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is the proposed station at Wellington still being pursued?
Back when I lived in Taunton, I wondered about whether a sort of "Somerset Orbital" service could operate calling at reopened stations at Cullompton; Wellington; Langport; and Somerton- which would also link the towns of Taunton and Yeovil, albeit with a reversal at Castle Cary... and provide an additional service along the West of England line which could allow Waterloo services to drop some stops at the smaller stations such as Feniton and Whimple.

 

[brad465]

Is the proposed station at Wellington still being pursued?
Back when I lived in Taunton, I wondered about whether a sort of "Somerset Orbital" service could operate calling at reopened stations at Cullompton; Wellington; Langport; and Somerton- which would also link the towns of Taunton and Yeovil, albeit with a reversal at Castle Cary... and provide an additional service along the West of England line which could allow Waterloo services to drop some stops at the smaller stations such as Feniton and Whimple.

As things stand it is not possible to reverse at Castle Cary in the platforms if you come from Taunton and plan to go towards Yeovil (it is though the other way round). I think there would also need to be more redoubling of single lines to facilitate such a service, especially between Castle Cary and Yeovil Pen Mill, and possibly parts of the WoE line as well (maybe merging current short passing loops into a long dynamic loop). Langport and Somerton would I think benefit from a station, but talked about signalling upgrades along the line would be needed to provide the line capacity needed to serve it, even if with existing services, given there are long 2 aspect blocks along here.

 

[DelW]

Looking at the Railcam cameras on the West Somerset today, the afternoon DMU path from Minehead (dep 1525) was being operated by a GWR 2+4 HST set. It seemed to be running a normal service (i.e. not a charter), as some passengers boarded and disembarked at intermediate stations.

Is this just a set on loan or hire to the WSR, as has happened on a few weekends earlier in the year, or maybe a trial of something different?

 

[Gloster]

Looking at the Railcam cameras on the West Somerset today, the afternoon DMU path from Minehead (dep 1525) was being operated by a GWR 2+4 HST set. It seemed to be running a normal service (i.e. not a charter), as some passengers boarded and disembarked at intermediate stations.

Is this just a set on loan or hire to the WSR, as has happened on a few weekends earlier in the year, or maybe a trial of something different?

A summer fire-risk precaution?

 

[DelW]

A summer fire-risk precaution?

No, the normal steam hauled services were running as well, using a pannier tank and a Manor.

The 1525 working is normally handled by the Park Royal DMU, along with a morning down service, which I didn't see today. They're school holiday only extras.

(Update Thursday 8th)
It's back to the normal Park Royal DMU on this morning's diesel turn.