Refused to pay

[glasgowniteowl]

Here (on the village hopper train) I met the very thorough ticket lady who was lovely but decided that as I didn’t have both parts of my rail card, despite having the photo card, warrant card and £200 of tickets and receipts that I owed a further £70 in replacement tickets.

This could be an important part which needs considered, why only £70 in replacement tickets? It should have been new tickets at full cost for any with the forces railcard discount applied

Worth remembering the part that was forgotten was the part with the issue date on it, so no way to tell if it was valid or not, if the photocard was forgotten them maybe the forces id card would have been acceptable and discretion shown though against the rules, but the actual main part that shows whether the railcard was valid was the missing piece

 

[Bletchleyite]

This could be an important part which needs considered, why only £70 in replacement tickets?

Because the OP was on a West Midlands Trains service and their long distance walk up fares are very, very cheap?

 

[tspaul26]

This could be an important part which needs considered, why only £70 in replacement tickets? It should have been new tickets at full cost for any with the forces railcard discount applied

Because the OP was on a West Midlands Trains service and their long distance walk up fares are very, very cheap?

An Off Peak Single from Milton Keynes to Lancaster is £70.00.

 

[Krokodil]

Why would I have half a railcard if I didn’t have the full one.

The same reason that sometimes I might be shown only the photocard part of a 16-25 railcard - if the date portion is missing then it may have expired.

 

[swt_passenger]

HM Forces railcard, can take up to 4 accompanied children.

I had someone a few days ago attempt to buy discounted tickets with only the photocard and warrant card, no railcard. I obviously declined to do so.

In your various posts, what is this ‘warrant card’ that you mention? Is it what is normally referred to as a forces ID card?

 

[Sultan]

If the rail company follow normal procedure, they will write to you for your version of events and anything that could be taken into consideration to not be prosecuted. Then they will likely offer a settlement figure which will be the full single fare (£70?) plus an admin fee (£100?). Of course, it may not get to this stage if you just apologise for not having the complete rail pass with you, submit evidence that you do possess one, and the accept this as a 'one off' (as is mentioned above) and part of your 'once a year' allowance for this reason.

But should it get to the settlement and you do pay, would you be then allowed to just reclaim delay-repay, assuming that the 'hopper' train was late? You can on the tickets you already hold.

 

[LowLevel]

Fair warning as someone who is both a railway ticket inspector and the brother of an ex serviceman who some years ago committed an offence on the railway and I had to help him sort it out - if you ever have such an occurrence in future when you know you are technically in the wrong regardless of moral rights and wrongs - correct it at the time and go after the customer service issues later especially if you're producing documents related to being in the military.

The ticking off and fixed penalty notice my brother received from the British Transport Police when I drove him to their station at his request after the
event was nothing compared to the kicking he got from his chain of command when the police reported him to them having found his military ID on his person.

To this day our travel irregularity report forms contain a section for entering the service particulars of military personnel and it would be really unfortunate to see a bad day turning into something more serious.

 

[Ducatist4]

Spot on - see post 15 as well

 

[glasgowniteowl]

submit evidence that you do possess one, and the accept this as a 'one off' (as is mentioned above) and part of your 'once a year' allowance for this reason.

What allowance is that? Forces railcards have slightly different terms and conditions

 

[Ducatist4]

The allowance to forget your railcard once i year i think.

 

[Sultan]

What allowance is that? Forces railcards have slightly different terms and conditions

If terms and conditions for the Forces railcards are different to 'regular' railcards, then there may not be a similar allowance for when you possess but do not have on inspection, all the required parts for the card to be valid.

 

[skyhigh]

What allowance is that? Forces railcards have slightly different terms and conditions

The condition is outlined in the National Rail Conditions of Travel and is not limited to specific Railcards -

If you are travelling with a Railcard discounted Ticket and are unable to present the Railcard when asked by the staff or authorised agents of a Train Company, you will be treated as having joined a train without a valid Ticket and Conditions 9.1 – 9.5 will apply
8.6 However, if you were unable to present the Railcard because you had forgotten to carry it on that particular journey or mislaid it, the Train Company concerned will refund any fare or Penalty Fare paid in accordance with Condition 10.
8.7 In order to claim such a refund, you will need to contact the customer service department of the Train Company that charged you the additional fare or Penalty Fare, providing the full details of your Railcard, together with the additional Tickets you have purchased or any Penalty Fares notices. A maximum of one such claim will be considered in any 12-month period.

However here the outstanding fare was declined to be paid and no penalty fare was issued, so the protections listed above do not apply. Often train operators will discontinue investigations if evidence of a valid railcard is presented but there's no guarantee that is what will happen.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

The allowance to forget your railcard once i year i think.

No such allowance for a forces rail card

From the armed forces railcard webpage:

5. Will I have to pay the full fare if I forget to bring my Railcard when I travel?

Yes. You must show your valid Railcard and Photocard when you buy your ticket. You must also have your Railcard and Photocard with you on each journey and present to staff when your ticket is checked aboard the train. Failure to present both your Railcard and Photocard will mean a full fare is payable, which is not refundable.

And also the terms and conditions:

Conditions of issue and use of reduced priced tickets ('discounted tickets') bought with the HM Forces Railcard

1. Tickets for your journey should be purchased before boarding the train. You must present your Railcard and Photocard whenever you purchase a discounted ticket. You must have your Railcard (and Photocard) with you on your journey and always show the valid Railcard and ticket to rail staff at their request.

If you do not show both the Railcard and the ticket, you will be required to pay the full price Standard Single fare for your journey as if no ticket was purchased before starting the journey. In some cases a penalty fare may be payable. This does not apply if there was no ticket office at the station at which you began your journey or if the ticket office was closed and there was no ticket machine from which you could buy a discounted ticket.

2. Minimum fares and time restrictions apply as detailed here.

3. In the case of some low price tickets the actual discount with a Railcard may be slightly lower than that advertised.

4. The right is reserved to revise these Conditions and availability of the tickets mentioned here. The Train Companies will endeavour to give three months' notice of any changes before they are due to come into effect.

5. Tickets issued to the holder of the Railcard are issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and the Conditions listed here. Copies of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage are available from any staffed station ticket office or online at www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/

 

[skyhigh]

From the armed forces railcard webpage:

5. Will I have to pay the full fare if I forget to bring my Railcard when I travel?

Yes. You must show your valid Railcard and Photocard when you buy your ticket. You must also have your Railcard and Photocard with you on each journey and present to staff when your ticket is checked aboard the train. Failure to present both your Railcard and Photocard will mean a full fare is payable, which is not refundable.

This is overridden by the NRCoT allowing the one-per-year exemption. I suspect the website has simply not been updated since the condition was added to the NRCoT.

And also the terms and conditions:

Conditions of issue and use of reduced priced tickets ('discounted tickets') bought with the HM Forces Railcard

1. Tickets for your journey should be purchased before boarding the train. You must present your Railcard and Photocard whenever you purchase a discounted ticket. You must have your Railcard (and Photocard) with you on your journey and always show the valid Railcard and ticket to rail staff at their request.

If you do not show both the Railcard and the ticket, you will be required to pay the full price Standard Single fare for your journey as if no ticket was purchased before starting the journey. In some cases a penalty fare may be payable. This does not apply if there was no ticket office at the station at which you began your journey or if the ticket office was closed and there was no ticket machine from which you could buy a discounted ticket.

2. Minimum fares and time restrictions apply as detailed here.

3. In the case of some low price tickets the actual discount with a Railcard may be slightly lower than that advertised.

4. The right is reserved to revise these Conditions and availability of the tickets mentioned here. The Train Companies will endeavour to give three months' notice of any changes before they are due to come into effect.

This is irrelevant as it mentions nothing about not being able to claim a refund or appeal a Penalty Fare.

5. Tickets issued to the holder of the Railcard are issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and the Conditions listed here. Copies of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage are available from any staffed station ticket office or online at www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/

As above, this highlights that the website has not been updated in years as the NRCoC have been replaced by NRCoT. The condition under discussion was not part of the NRCoC and only added to the NRCoT.

Regardless, this discussion is of little use to the OP as no Penalty Fare has been issued and they refused to pay for a replacement ticket.

 

[Pedro123]

Fair warning as someone who is both a railway ticket inspector and the brother of an ex serviceman who some years ago committed an offence on the railway and I had to help him sort it out - if you ever have such an occurrence in future when you know you are technically in the wrong regardless of moral rights and wrongs - correct it at the time and go after the customer service issues later especially if you're producing documents related to being in the military.

The ticking off and fixed penalty notice my brother received from the British Transport Police when I drove him to their station at his request after the
event was nothing compared to the kicking he got from his chain of command when the police reported him to them having found his military ID on his person.

To this day our travel irregularity report forms contain a section for entering the service particulars of military personnel and it would be really unfortunate to see a bad day turning into something more serious.

Was this a while ago? Things are a lot calmer of late and I can’t see this being much more than a paper exercise. I gave my details freely and in the cold light of day, compared to policy it’s me who’s in the wrong. Sadly, I rely on rail to travel the length of the country and the decline of the infra and striking has caused frequent problems for years now. I’m tired and emotions got the better on that day. Spent a few quod on hotels and slept on platforms before now due to cancelled services. Can’t fight the policy though. As a regular passenger it’s all getting a bit much.

 

[sheff1]

No such allowance for a forces rail card

From the armed forces railcard webpage:

5. Will I have to pay the full fare if I forget to bring my Railcard when I travel?

Yes. You must show your valid Railcard and Photocard when you buy your ticket. You must also have your Railcard and Photocard with you on each journey and present to staff when your ticket is checked aboard the train. Failure to present both your Railcard and Photocard will mean a full fare is payable, which is not refundable.

And also the terms and conditions:

Conditions of issue and use of reduced priced tickets ('discounted tickets') bought with the HM Forces Railcard

1. Tickets for your journey should be purchased before boarding the train. You must present your Railcard and Photocard whenever you purchase a discounted ticket. You must have your Railcard (and Photocard) with you on your journey and always show the valid Railcard and ticket to rail staff at their request.

If you do not show both the Railcard and the ticket, you will be required to pay the full price Standard Single fare for your journey as if no ticket was purchased before starting the journey. In some cases a penalty fare may be payable. This does not apply if there was no ticket office at the station at which you began your journey or if the ticket office was closed and there was no ticket machine from which you could buy a discounted ticket.

2. Minimum fares and time restrictions apply as detailed here.

3. In the case of some low price tickets the actual discount with a Railcard may be slightly lower than that advertised.

4. The right is reserved to revise these Conditions and availability of the tickets mentioned here. The Train Companies will endeavour to give three months' notice of any changes before they are due to come into effect.

5. Tickets issued to the holder of the Railcard are issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and the Conditions listed here. Copies of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage are available from any staffed station ticket office or online at www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/

That is obviously well out of date as the National Rail Conditions of Carriage ceased to be operative on 30 September 2016 - unsurprsingly the link to them in the final para does not work.

 

[Sultan]

That is obviously well out of date as the National Rail Conditions of Carriage ceased to be operative on 30 September 2016 - unsurprsingly the link to them in the final para does not work.

I wonder what it says in any written T&Cs for said Forces railcard, assuming there is such a thing.

 

[Llanigraham]

No such allowance for a forces rail card

From the armed forces railcard webpage:

5. Will I have to pay the full fare if I forget to bring my Railcard when I travel?

Yes. You must show your valid Railcard and Photocard when you buy your ticket. You must also have your Railcard and Photocard with you on each journey and present to staff when your ticket is checked aboard the train. Failure to present both your Railcard and Photocard will mean a full fare is payable, which is not refundable.

And also the terms and conditions:

Conditions of issue and use of reduced priced tickets ('discounted tickets') bought with the HM Forces Railcard

1. Tickets for your journey should be purchased before boarding the train. You must present your Railcard and Photocard whenever you purchase a discounted ticket. You must have your Railcard (and Photocard) with you on your journey and always show the valid Railcard and ticket to rail staff at their request.

If you do not show both the Railcard and the ticket, you will be required to pay the full price Standard Single fare for your journey as if no ticket was purchased before starting the journey. In some cases a penalty fare may be payable. This does not apply if there was no ticket office at the station at which you began your journey or if the ticket office was closed and there was no ticket machine from which you could buy a discounted ticket.

2. Minimum fares and time restrictions apply as detailed here.

3. In the case of some low price tickets the actual discount with a Railcard may be slightly lower than that advertised.

4. The right is reserved to revise these Conditions and availability of the tickets mentioned here. The Train Companies will endeavour to give three months' notice of any changes before they are due to come into effect.

5. Tickets issued to the holder of the Railcard are issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and the Conditions listed here. Copies of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage are available from any staffed station ticket office or online at www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/

Whether the OP is dissatisfied with the service the railway provides or not, these are the Terms & Conditions that he agreed to when he was given the Railcard and he has quite obviously ignored them.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

That is obviously well out of date as the National Rail Conditions of Carriage ceased to be operative on 30 September 2016 - unsurprsingly the link to them in the final para does not work.

May well appear that way but remember things are quite different for this rail card, the forms that are signed for it, who processes it etc it doesn't have an actual expiry date on it like way other railcards do etc different conditions on what it can be used for, there are a lot of differences here that mean the "normal" advice needs to be checked that it's suitable

 

[skyhigh]

May well appear that way but remember things are quite different for this rail card, the forms that are signed for it, who processes it etc it doesn't have an actual expiry date on it like way other railcards do etc different conditions on what it can be used for, there are a lot of differences here that mean the "normal" advice needs to be checked that it's suitable

It is a complete nonsense to suggest that the NRCoT doesn't apply and it is instead subject to the defunct NRCoC though.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

It is a complete nonsense to suggest that the NRCoT doesn't apply and it is instead subject to the defunct NRCoC though.

Has anyone said that though?

 

[Pedro123]

I hate to say it. But no one is made aware of T&C unless you research them yourself. AF Railcards are handwritten. Mine was actually handed to me blank to fill in myself with pen and sellotape a passport photo too. They’re not even plastic. Literally a business card

 

[skyhigh]

Has anyone said that though?

You appear to be labouring under the misapprehension that tickets purchased with the Forces Railcard are not covered by the contractual arrangements made in the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

 

[Pedro123]

Whether the OP is dissatisfied with the service the railway provides or not, these are the Terms & Conditions that he agreed to when he was given the Railcard and he has quite obviously ignored them.

Noting that the card is free and literally a hand written business card, why is such a big deal made out of it when someone can prove they are eligible to hold it anyway. (Eg by showing a MOD90 ID Card)

 

[glasgowniteowl]

You appear to be labouring under the misapprehension that tickets purchased with the Forces Railcard are not covered by the contractual arrangements made in the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

That's not what you said though, you specifically stated

"It is a complete nonsense to suggest that the NRCoT doesn't apply and it is instead subject to the defunct NRCoC though."

Who said that?

 

[LowLevel]

Was this a while ago? Things are a lot calmer of late and I can’t see this being much more than a paper exercise. I gave my details freely and in the cold light of day, compared to policy it’s me who’s in the wrong. Sadly, I rely on rail to travel the length of the country and the decline of the infra and striking has caused frequent problems for years now. I’m tired and emotions got the better on that day. Spent a few quod on hotels and slept on platforms before now due to cancelled services. Can’t fight the policy though. As a regular passenger it’s all getting a bit much.

About 10 years - I agree because it doesn't really need to go any further and I do get your frustrations.

 

[furlong]

If the correct documents are supplied as discussed earlier, that should put an end to this from the point of view of the railway. However, I think the primary issue described here is one of discipline and it could still be reported back as a matter of course and lead to mild disciplinary action for the failure to accept the railway employee's authority, bringing the forces into disrepute, and indeed some of the posts on this thread suggest that this point has still not been understood.

 

[Llanigraham]

Noting that the card is free and literally a hand written business card, why is such a big deal made out of it when someone can prove they are eligible to hold it anyway. (Eg by showing a MOD90 ID Card)

Because those are the Terms & Conditions that you agreed to abide by, and you haven't.
As a Serviceman you are expected to follow Orders, are you not? Those T & C's are no different.

 

[Pedro123]

Because those are the Terms & Conditions that you agreed to abide by, and you haven't.
As a Serviceman you are expected to follow Orders, are you not? Those T & C's are no different.

Fare enough. They are what they are.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Noting that the card is free and literally a hand written business card, why is such a big deal made out of it when someone can prove they are eligible to hold it anyway. (Eg by showing a MOD90 ID Card)

It's not free though, it has to be purchased, a mod90 might be acceptable to show if you don't have the photocard but your mod90 doesn't let the inspector know you have one that has been paid for and currently valid, that's what the second part it, it's also not hand written as you put it, it's got your unit stamp on there as well I presume or it should do as it did when I held mine