Refused to pay

[Pedro123]

It's not free though, it has to be purchased, a mod90 might be acceptable to show if you don't have the photocard but your mod90 doesn't let the inspector know you have one that has been paid for and currently valid, that's what the second part it, it's also not hand written as you put it, it's got your unit stamp on there as well I presume or it should do as it did when I held mine

Entirely dependent on the unit. Mine was issued blank with instructions to get a pen and fill it in. Some admin offices may issue them with the same seriousness as ammunition, others are far more relaxed.

 

[furlong]

If you do get a letter, I suggest you try to pre-empt any possible disciplinary action by including in your response a request to pass on a sincere apology to the railway employee who was only carrying out their duties, and not attempt to make excuses for yourself. That way you'd be able to explain you already understood your mistake and had done what you could to make amends on your own initiative.

 

[Pedro123]

If you do get a letter, I suggest you try to pre-empt any possible disciplinary action by including in your response a request to pass on a sincere apology to the railway employee who was only carrying out their duties, and not attempt to make excuses for yourself.

No excuses. I’m in the wrong here so far as policy goes. Emotionally a bit different on the day, however the conversation with the lady checking tickets was very polite. Only so much overcrowding etc a person can take. Assuming you work on the trains, you must have seen a lot more emotional passengers of late with the way things are going?

 

[Krokodil]

Noting that the card is free and literally a hand written business card, why is such a big deal made out of it when someone can prove they are eligible to hold it anyway. (Eg by showing a MOD90 ID Card)

I would be eligible for a 26-30 Railcard but I can't just show proof of age and expect a discount, I need to have the card (complete with expiry date) ready for inspection.

When issuing a ticket to someone who was obviously disabled I've had to charge full fare because they did not have the card they would have been eligible to apply for. [before anyone says anything, it wasn't one of the disabilities that are eligible for a discount without a card]

 

[Pedro123]

I would be eligible for a 26-30 Railcard but I can't just show proof of age and expect a discount, I need to have the card (complete with expiry date) ready for inspection.

When issuing a ticket to someone who was obviously disabled I've had to charge full fare because they did not have the card they would have been eligible to apply for. [before anyone says anything, it wasn't one of the disabilities that are eligible for a discount without a card]

So not withstanding current rules, is this not just admin for admin sake and the deliberate over complication of the ticketing system to force people off the railway. Appreciate no one here writes the rules, but it all feels a bit silly to be put in a situation where you can see common sense and logic, agree or sympathise with the passenger but have to write the ticket anyway?

 

[Titfield]

So not withstanding current rules, is this not just admin for admin sake and the deliberate over complication of the ticketing system to force people off the railway. Appreciate no one here writes the rules, but it all feels a bit silly to be put in a situation where you can see common sense and logic, agree or sympathise with the passenger but have to write the ticket anyway?

If everyone was given the benefit of the doubt then fare evasion would be more rife than it is already. Asking staff to exercise discretion is fraught with problems., Some I suspect would rather never show any discretion because then they can not be wrong. It is also worth pointing out that discretion is the opposite of consistency which is something some posters wish to see.

I dont dispute that the ticketing system is over complicated but it has developed this way as a response to market conditions. What I find astonishing has been the proliferation of railcards with different conditions and applicability which now seem to be the cause of a significant % of the issues on this forum.

 

[Pedro123]

If everyone was given the benefit of the doubt then fare evasion would be more rife than it is already. Asking staff to exercise discretion is fraught with problems., Some I suspect would rather never show any discretion because then they can not be wrong. It is also worth pointing out that discretion is the opposite of consistency which is something some posters wish to see.

I dont dispute that the ticketing system is over complicated but it has developed this way as a response to market conditions. What I find astonishing has been the proliferation of railcards with different conditions and applicability which now seem to be the cause of a significant % of the issues on this forum.

Makes sense. I guess the discretion is simply not doing the checks when it’s over crowded or late etc. Which I see a lot. Could probably save a bit of bother with age related railcards should the passenger be able to show a passport instead for example?

 

[island]

however the conversation with the lady checking tickets was very polite

That doesn't seem to correspond with what you said previously.

I had a complete sense of humour failure

 

[Pedro123]

That doesn't seem to correspond with what you said previously.

You can lose your patience and remain polite. There’s no need to shout, swear or name call to explain you’ve had a terrible day on the trains already and won’t be paying a penny more. It’s terribly British

 

[jamiearmley]

May well appear that way but remember things are quite different for this rail card, the forms that are signed for it, who processes it etc it doesn't have an actual expiry date on it like way other railcards do etc different conditions on what it can be used for, there are a lot of differences here that mean the "normal" advice needs to be checked that it's suitable

Just for clarity, it does have 'an actual expiry date'.

The expiry date is exactly 12 months from the ink stamped date of issue on the counterpart section of the two part Railcard.

For the avoidance of further doubt, the HM Forces railcard is treated in EXACTLY the same way as all other Railcards - (and for that matter, any other form of evidence based discount entitlement such as an ENCTS pass, or a local area card such as the SYPTE under 19 card) - with regard to the 'Railcard left at home' policy.

We do love our tangents.......

 

[reb0118]

Noting that the card is free......

I vaguely remember a £3 admin change (but that may have been a donation to the SNCO's tea fund).

However, my understanding is that there is now an actual cost for these now.

 

[swt_passenger]

I vaguely remember a £3 admin change (but that may have been a donation to the SNCO's tea fund).

However, my understanding is that there is now an actual cost for these now.

£21.00 currently

 

[Krokodil]

So not withstanding current rules, is this not just admin for admin sake and the deliberate over complication of the ticketing system to force people off the railway. Appreciate no one here writes the rules, but it all feels a bit silly to be put in a situation where you can see common sense and logic, agree or sympathise with the passenger but have to write the ticket anyway?

If the inspector can't see the expiry date (or in your case, the issue date) then they have no way of verifying that the railcard is in date.

 

[Belperpete]

You can lose your patience and remain polite. There’s no need to shout, swear or name call to explain you’ve had a terrible day on the trains already and won’t be paying a penny more. It’s terribly British

You may have had a terrible day, but did you at any point consider what kind of day the lady ticket inspector may have had, and how your passive-aggressive confrontation would contribute to that?

 

[AlterEgo]

Noting that the card is free and literally a hand written business card, why is such a big deal made out of it when someone can prove they are eligible to hold it anyway. (Eg by showing a MOD90 ID Card)

It’s not free. It costs £21 a year. You have to buy it.

 

[BrianW]

You may have had a terrible day, but did you at any point consider what kind of day the lady ticket inspector may have had, and how your passive-aggressive confrontation would contribute to that?

The tone of his postings have 'lightened' somewhat from yesterday, possible reflecting on that. I confess to knowing nothing about Armed Forces cards, concessions etc, so I'm not sure whether he is himself a member of HM Forces or a member of a Forces family. I do know that if I were a Commanding Officer I would like to feel that constraint and rectitude and self-control would be qualities on show, rather than a 'loose cannon' who might 'lose it' in a testing situation. (In the same way as a teacher might feel concerned at their Head being told).

I hope, pedro123, that you can think about the 'bigger picture' and approach the top brass before being called in. Feeling for you; thank you for doing what you do to keep us safe.

You're getting good advice from Forumites, who are trying to help you too. Don't do anything silly now- your family needs you.

 

[Belperpete]

Noting that the card is free and literally a hand written business card, why is such a big deal made out of it when someone can prove they are eligible to hold it anyway. (Eg by showing a MOD90 ID Card)

Just because someone is eligible for a railcard, does not mean they have the right to the discount. If someone misuses a Railcard, it can be removed from them, for example. They might still have their MOD ID card, but they would no longer be entitled to the railcard discount.

I think the primary issue described here is one of discipline and it could still be reported back as a matter of course and lead to mild disciplinary action for the failure to accept the railway employee's authority, bringing the forces into disrepute, and indeed some of the posts on this thread suggest that this point has still not been understood.

If action was taken for bringing the forces into disrepute, I wonder how well it would go down if it was discovered that he had publicised his actions on a public forum?

 

[spyinthesky]

There may be further conditions in a Joint Service Publication (JSP) 741 if I remember right. This will show the military rules and use for travel.
I remember renewing mine the day before I left service.
Edit JSP800 Vol 2 but not available to public or for public sharing, previous FOI’s have been declined.
It is available to read by the OP if required

 

[Pedro123]

The tone of his postings have 'lightened' somewhat from yesterday, possible reflecting on that. I confess to knowing nothing about Armed Forces cards, concessions etc, so I'm not sure whether he is himself a member of HM Forces or a member of a Forces family. I do know that if I were a Commanding Officer I would like to feel that constraint and rectitude and self-control would be qualities on show, rather than a 'loose cannon' who might 'lose it' in a testing situation. (In the same way as a teacher might feel concerned at their Head being told).

I hope, pedro123, that you can think about the 'bigger picture' and approach the top brass before being called in. Feeling for you; thank you for doing what you do to keep us safe.

You're getting good advice from Forumites, who are trying to help you too. Don't do anything silly now- your family needs you.

Passive aggressive? Lose control? Ill disciplined? I think we need to back up a little here. I’m open and honest and have explained a situation that occurred and the conversations that happened too. I’ve been in the military for over 20 years and I’m not a Junior. On the 7th I spent over £200 on rail tickets for trains that did not exist nor run and fought through delays and over crowding to eventually reach my destination and return with what did appear at the platform. When my ticket was inspected on the final leg, yes there was a discrepancy and I politely stated that I wasn’t willing to pay anymore due to this. I understand that when you break it apart and apply policy to each aspect there is redress via delay repay etc and yes, I now do need to present the second half of my rail card and do some paperwork. But bringing the force into disrepute!? For what? Refusing to handover £70 after paying £200 for a day of non existent trains?? Having a conversation and saying no doesn’t bring anything into disrepute. Despite the final judgement and follow ups once you sit down with a rule book and quote paragraphs.

 

[Pedro123]

Passive aggressive? Lose control? Ill disciplined? I think we need to back up a little here. I’m open and honest and have explained a situation that occurred and the conversations that happened too. I’ve been in the military for over 20 years and I’m not a Junior. On the 7th I spent over £200 on rail tickets for trains that did not exist nor run and fought through delays and over crowding to eventually reach my destination and return with what did appear at the platform. When my ticket was inspected on the final leg, yes there was a discrepancy and I politely stated that I wasn’t willing to pay anymore due to this. I understand that when you break it apart and apply policy to each aspect there is redress via delay repay etc and yes, I now do need to present the second half of my rail card and do some paperwork. But bringing the force into disrepute!? For what? Refusing to handover £70 after paying £200 for a day of non existent trains?? Having a conversation and saying no doesn’t bring anything into disrepute. Despite the final judgement and follow ups once you sit down with a rule book and quote paragraphs.

Please also bear in mind that I have stated I was travelling with children. The seats we reserved (11 car pendelino Coach G) didn’t exist when a 5 car train eventually pulled in and boarded 11 cars full of bookings. We spent half a day sat in the floor next to the toilet. Whilst it is easy to sit back and quote policy chapters, maybe consider the stress that people maybe under navigating situations and not receiving the service they paid for in the first place.

 

[tiptoptaff]

How much you've previously paid does not excuse the behavior you exhibited, nor the attitude you showed, and continue to have towards the incident.

If I went in to a disciplinary on the railway with attitude to the incident you're showing - ie not accepting what you did was wrong and continuing to try and justify what you did and how you acted - I'd expect to get chewed out by management. As I would have in any other role in the non-military world I have worked in.

I can only imagine what a military CoC would think/do, being that they have a reputation for being much stricter and holidng themselves to higher standards (I have never served, so cannot comment on it through experience, only from what I can gather from the many current/ex servicemen and women I have come to know through working on the railway)

 

[Pedro123]

How much you've previously paid does not excuse the behavior you exhibited, nor the attitude you showed, and continue to have towards the incident.

If I went in to a disciplinary on the railway with attitude to the incident you're showing - ie not accepting what you did was wrong and continuing to try and justify what you did and how you acted - I'd expect to get chewed out by management. As I would have in any other role in the non-military world I have worked in.

I can only imagine what a military CoC would think/do, being that they have a reputation for being much stricter and holidng themselves to higher standards (I have never served, so cannot comment on it through experience, only from what I can gather from the many current/ex servicemen and women I have come to know through working on the railway)

Behaviour? Disciplinary?
Stating “I’m sorry but I’ve paid £200 today already, I apologise I don’t have the part 2 of the card you wish to see but I won’t be buying replacement tickets. You may take all my information [willingly gives name and address]. I just cant justify handing over another £70 after today”. Isn’t bad behaviour, it just triggers admin action.

You’re literally inventing a situation where there was swearing, shouting, gate jumping or intimidation in your head. It was a polite conversation. Turns out I’m in the wrong, accepted, will follow up.

 

[RPI]

Everything aside, if you have a valid Railcard then if you receive a letter or correspondence then reply with a picture of the valid Railcard, IE both parts.

For forgotten railcards then I don't believe that the passenger should be charged anything at the time and personally I'll always issue a UFN/PFN/MG11 which allows genuine passengers to produce their Railcard later, that way genuine passengers end up paying nothing and ones who are telling porky pies have to face some form of enforcement measure.

An example would be that a family going on holiday, forget their Railcard, they get charged £200 for new tickets or excess even (excess between advance with Railcard and Off-peak can be massive), it's all very well saying that they'll get their money back, but that's all their holiday money gone for the time it takes to get the money back.

Yes, it could be argued that those are the terms etc but this is why I prefer the method of some form of notice that is cancelled upon production of said Railcard, anyway, I digress....

 

[tiptoptaff]

Behaviour? Disciplinary?
Stating “I’m sorry but I’ve paid £200 today already, I apologise I don’t have the part 2 of the card you wish to see but I won’t be buying replacement tickets. You may take all my information [willingly gives name and address]. I just cant justify handing over another £70 after today”. Isn’t bad behaviour, it just triggers admin action.

You’re literally inventing a situation where there was swearing, shouting, gate jumping or intimidation in your head. It was a polite conversation. Turns out I’m in the wrong, accepted, will follow up.

No I'm not. Refusing to pay because you don't think you have to is displaying a poor attitude.

"I'm not paying you, take my details if you want" is passive aggressive, no matter how 'polite' you think you've been.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Behaviour? Disciplinary?
Stating “I’m sorry but I’ve paid £200 today already, I apologise I don’t have the part 2 of the card you wish to see but I won’t be buying replacement tickets. You may take all my information [willingly gives name and address]. I just cant justify handing over another £70 after today”. Isn’t bad behaviour, it just triggers admin action.

You’re literally inventing a situation where there was swearing, shouting, gate jumping or intimidation in your head. It was a polite conversation. Turns out I’m in the wrong, accepted, will follow up.

I think it's usual to read this:

"I had a complete sense of humour failure"

...as a euphemism for having "lost it" and given them a gobful rather than politely refusing to pay. Perhaps might make sense to clarify the exact nature of what went on at that point.

 

[Pedro123]

Everything aside, if you have a valid Railcard then if you receive a letter or correspondence then reply with a picture of the valid Railcard, IE both parts.

For forgotten railcards then I don't believe that the passenger should be charged anything at the time and personally I'll always issue a UFN/PFN/MG11 which allows genuine passengers to produce their Railcard later, that way genuine passengers end up paying nothing and ones who are telling porky pies have to face some form of enforcement measure.

An example would be that a family going on holiday, forget their Railcard, they get charged £200 for new tickets or excess even (excess between advance with Railcard and Off-peak can be massive), it's all very well saying that they'll get their money back, but that's all their holiday money gone for the time it takes to get the money back.

Yes, it could be argued that those are the terms etc but this is why I prefer the method of some form of notice that is cancelled upon production of said Railcard, anyway, I digress....

I wish there were more like you.

 

[RPI]

Behaviour? Disciplinary?
Stating “I’m sorry but I’ve paid £200 today already, I apologise I don’t have the part 2 of the card you wish to see but I won’t be buying replacement tickets. You may take all my information [willingly gives name and address]. I just cant justify handing over another £70 after today”. Isn’t bad behaviour, it just triggers admin action.

You’re literally inventing a situation where there was swearing, shouting, gate jumping or intimidation in your head. It was a polite conversation. Turns out I’m in the wrong, accepted, will follow up.

I sympathise with you, I've dealt with exactly this before, the passenger is polite, firm but fair. The member of staff, in my opinion, should have issued a notice or a report explaining that the Railcard could be produced later, they should also have explained that the excess fare that was being asked for would be refundable upon production of the full Railcard.

A passenger can refuse to cooperate in a civil manner, I've had it loads.

 

[Pedro123]

I think it's usual to read this:

"I had a complete sense of humour failure"

...as a euphemism for having "lost it" and given them a gobful rather than politely refusing to pay. Perhaps might make sense to clarify the exact nature of what went on at that point.

I’ve stated the specifics multiple times now. Having a SoH failure and refusing to tap my card for reasons stated whilst giving full details is different to a SoH failure and kicking off. Categorically, there was no heated conversation.

 

[LowLevel]

I sympathise with you, I've dealt with exactly this before, the passenger is polite, firm but fair. The member of staff, in my opinion, should have issued a notice or a report explaining that the Railcard could be produced later, they should also have explained that the excess fare that was being asked for would be refundable upon production of the full Railcard.

A passenger can refuse to cooperate in a civil manner, I've had it loads.

The only thing I would say is that your way *should* work - and that is how we're all told it should work in training. Passenger has dropped a clanger but is probably honest, issue the notice, back office will cancel it on receipt of proof.

Unfortunately one thing I have picked up reading these threads is that the part where the back office does what we think they will with our notices isn't always 100% consistent - EG people have supplied the requisite document and then been told "we see no reason to cancel the notice", particularly with TOCs who use contractors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ve stated the specifics multiple times now. Having a SoH failure and refusing to tap my card for reasons stated whilst giving full details is different to a SoH failure and kicking off. Categorically, there was no heated conversation.

Thanks. The highlighted bit is important. I think we have different views on what a "sense of humour failure" means - to me it is a very specific euphemism for "kicking off big style". Simply refusing to pay some money isn't to me a "SoH failure", it's just a polite dispute as to whether the money is due or not. I suspect most people have interpreted it the same way as me.