Tyne & Wear Metro Fleet Replacement: Awarded to Stadler

[GardenRail]

The mass public consultation did ask about your views on the 3 types of seating arrangements mentioned above.

Whilst I wouldn't normally advocate sideways seating, after my visit to North Shields yesterday, it may be a good thing. It'll stop the horrible, black hoody, grey joggers youth using the adjacent seats as a foot rest. Bring it on.

 

[Snex]

Just to touch on the subject of having every station gate lined and manned.

You'd need three staff at every station (to make sure that there are always two working if one is on a break), so this is 3x60=180
You’d need at least three shifts so 3x180 = 540.
Now each CSA earns about £26,000 (actually a little more)
So 540 times £26k is about £14m.
That £14m doesn’t take into account the fact that you’d need more ancillary staff to support that massive growth in CSA numbers;
More managers, more HR, more Payroll etc etc etc.
Let’s not forget the actual cost of the ticket barriers themselves, which I would imagine would dwarf the staff costs, each single unit being extremely expensive. You’d also need to factor in building some form of break room at any station where staff are expected to man a gate line. The costs are rising again…
also, all the CSAs are entitled to catch the last train home, so I’m not sure how you’d keep the stations manned then.

How much would you be expecting to make from tickets if this was the plan?

Even known there's the cost element, one thing that's ignored here is the security benefits. Some stations, in the evening, are pretty much no go areas. Having them staffed would make a massive difference in them. Obviously doing every station, the likes of Pallion, South Hylton and Ilford Road wouldn't make sense but ignoring infrastructure issues places like: Northumberland Park, Monkseaton, Whitley Bay, Cullercoats, Tynemouth, Wallsend, Byker, Four Lane Ends, Heworth, South Gosforth, West Jesmond, Pelaw and other similar stations, would be beneificial. With those done, you probably would no longer need the security that's been hired for most trains in an evening currently.

It'd be interesting to see how much extra revenue could be brought in from people actively avoiding the system due to safety fear.

 

[CarrotPie]

Whilst I wouldn't normally advocate sideways seating, after my visit to North Shields yesterday, it may be a good thing. It'll stop the horrible, black hoody, grey joggers youth using the adjacent seats as a foot rest. Bring it on.

Maybe that's why bays weren't an option?

 

[ExRes]

The latest delivery is delayed at Frethun for at least 24 hours. Not sure why.

0046 7Q55 Wembley Rec to York Holgate now showing for tomorrow

 

[DanNCL]

Understand that a pair of 20s is doing this delivery rather than the usual HST power cars.

 

[ExRes]

Understand that a pair of 20s is doing this delivery rather than the usual HST power cars.

7Q55 cancelled again this morning, wonder what the problem is in France? maybe the farmers have set fire to the 555 ....

 

[DanNCL]

7Q55 cancelled again this morning, wonder what the problem is in France? maybe the farmers have set fire to the 555 ....

The 20s that were supposed to be taking the unit from Wembley were called upon to recover a failed track machine from Harwich. So nothing to move the delivery from Wembley and after what happened there with 555003 the risk of leaving the latest delivery there was understandably not taken.

 

[ExRes]

The 20s that were supposed to be taking the unit from Wembley were called upon to recover a failed track machine from Harwich. So nothing to move the delivery from Wembley and after what happened there with 555003 the risk of leaving the latest delivery there was understandably not taken.

Thanks @DanNCL it's a bit strange though because there's been a pair of power cars at Wembley since Wednesday and are confirmed as present on se gen this morning

 

[DanNCL]

Thanks @DanNCL it's a bit strange though because there's been a pair of power cars at Wembley since Wednesday and are confirmed as present on se gen this morning

Powercars? First I’ve heard of that but it makes more sense. Must be duff gen about the 20s, guessing someone has put two and two together to get five!

The delivery is at Dollands Moor awaiting movement to Wembley so has at least made it through the tunnel now.

 

[hacman]

Powercars? First I’ve heard of that but it makes more sense. Must be duff gen about the 20s, guessing someone has put two and two together to get five!

The delivery is at Dollands Moor awaiting movement to Wembley so has at least made it through the tunnel now.

I think the allocation was that the 20s were going to take the new unit(s) so far (York maybe?) then the 43s were to take over?

 

[800001]

Path has appeared in system for early hours of Wednesday morning Wembley to Holgate sidings for the 555s

Path attached below from Real time trains

Realtime Trains | 7Q55 0114 Wembley Receptions 1-7 to York Holgate Siding (Gbrf) | 17/04/2024

Real-time train running information for 7Q55 0114 departure from Wembley Receptions 1-7 to York Holgate Siding (Gbrf) on 17/04/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[DanNCL]

Worth keeping a very close eye on this delivery and what actually turns up on it.

Of the two units reported, I’ve seen a photo (which unfortunately I can’t share) of 001 dumped solo in a siding in Konstanz, whilst 020 wasn’t included on the list of pre-delivery accepted units Nexus submitted to the Joint Transport Committee last week.

Unless 020 has been pre-delivery accepted despite Nexus omitting it from the list of pre delivery accepted units in their JTC scrutiny report, then it shouldn’t be on this delivery.
001 could have been taken to Dollands Moor but considering where it was on its own earlier this month, if it is on this delivery it’s likely to be the only unit.

 

[800001]

Worth keeping a very close eye on this delivery and what actually turns up on it.

Of the two units reported, I’ve seen a photo (which unfortunately I can’t share) of 001 dumped solo in a siding in Konstanz, whilst 020 wasn’t included on the list of pre-delivery accepted units Nexus submitted to the Joint Transport Committee last week.

Unless 020 has been pre-delivery accepted despite Nexus omitting it from the list of pre delivery accepted units in their JTC scrutiny report, then it shouldn’t be on this delivery.
001 could have been taken to Dollands Moor but considering where it was on its own earlier this month, if it is on this delivery it’s likely to be the only unit.

001 and 020 are reported at Dollands Moor

 

[DanNCL]

001 and 020 are reported at Dollands Moor

The situation could be about to get messy then. As I’m pretty sure a unit without factory acceptance wouldn’t have got as far as Dollands Moor without being stopped, it appears possible that Nexus may have submitted an incorrect report to a regulatory committee.
Personally knowing some of the members of said regulatory committee, I know that if they found that out they’d go nuts.

 

[800001]

The situation could be about to get messy then. As I’m pretty sure a unit without factory acceptance wouldn’t have got as far as Dollands Moor without being stopped, it appears possible that Nexus may have submitted an incorrect report to a regulatory committee.
Personally knowing some of the members of said regulatory committee, I know that if they found that out they’d go nuts.

Trust allocation for 7Q24 Dollands Moor to Wembley shows 555001 and 555020, hauled by 66002.

 

[hacman]

The situation could be about to get messy then. As I’m pretty sure a unit without factory acceptance wouldn’t have got as far as Dollands Moor without being stopped, it appears possible that Nexus may have submitted an incorrect report to a regulatory committee.
Personally knowing some of the members of said regulatory committee, I know that if they found that out they’d go nuts.

Absolutely on Stadler not releasing a unit without final QA and acceptance tests - the consequences of that would be interesting to say the least!

It’s possible that if 020 is not on the list of passed units sent to the JTC it is merely an oversight or the list was updated in the time the outdated copy took to go via the various people at both organisations - neither NECA or Nexus (or any public body) are well known for expedience in communication.

 

[DanNCL]

Trust allocation for 7Q24 Dollands Moor to Wembley shows 555001 and 555020, hauled by 66002.

Absolutely on Stadler not releasing a unit without final QA and acceptance tests - the consequences of that would be interesting to say the least!

It’s possible that if 020 is not on the list of passed units sent to the JTC it is merely an oversight or the list was updated in the time the outdated copy took to go via the various people at both organisations - neither NECA or Nexus (or any public body) are well known for expedience in communication.

I’ll be making inquiries. Not about which units are there because I don’t doubt that trust is correct, but because if Nexus have made an error in a JTC report then Nexus need to go back to JTC to correct the record. I’m sure we all agree that it’s important for public bodies like Nexus to be properly scrutinised.

I highly doubt it would have left without acceptance, if nobody at Stadler noticed then surely somebody at RailAdventure would have done. And if even they managed to miss it then it would have been caught when it was entered into Trust. If a unit did somehow manage to arrive in the UK without acceptance, it would not get as far as Gosforth.

It probably is just an error but JTC is (or was) the one place where Nexus didn’t have a choice but to say what was really happening. When the press release about axing the peak shorts was released which gave the wrong reason, Nexus got quite a telling off at the next JTC meeting, where Nexus corrected the record.
If they’re submitting incorrect reports, it makes you wonder what else may be wrong in those reports, things of much greater importance.

 

[800001]

I’ll be making inquiries. Not about which units are there because I don’t doubt that trust is correct, but because if Nexus have made an error in a JTC report then Nexus need to go back to JTC to correct the record. I’m sure we all agree that it’s important for public bodies like Nexus to be properly scrutinised.

I highly doubt it would have left without acceptance, if nobody at Stadler noticed then surely somebody at RailAdventure would have done. And if even they managed to miss it then it would have been caught when it was entered into Trust. If a unit did somehow manage to arrive in the UK without acceptance, it would not get as far as Gosforth.

It probably is just an error but JTC is (or was) the one place where Nexus didn’t have a choice but to say what was really happening. When the press release about axing the peak shorts was released which gave the wrong reason, Nexus got quite a telling off at the next JTC meeting, where Nexus corrected the record.
If they’re submitting incorrect reports, it makes you wonder what else may be wrong in those reports, things of much greater importance.

Do nexus not undertake acceptance work in the Uk?

Ive never heard of a TOC accepting a unit while the unit is abroad at the factory.

I thought units were moved to Uk, did fault free running etc, and then get acceptance.

 

[DanNCL]

Do nexus not undertake acceptance work in the Uk?

Ive never heard of a TOC accepting a unit while the unit is abroad at the factory.

I thought units were moved to Uk, did fault free running etc, and then get acceptance.

This fleet is, for some reason, subject to two different types of acceptance. There’s the standard acceptance for traffic which happens at Gosforth and so far none of them have this yet. These units are also subject to “pre delivery acceptance” by Nexus at the Stadler site in St Margrethen. Untis 001-018 inclusive are the ones that have pre delivery acceptance according to last week’s report from Nexus to JTC.

I’d never heard of “pre-delivery acceptance” before the 555s so I wonder if this is specifically a Nexus thing.
They are after all known for making things much more complicated than they need to be.

 

[Paul_10]

So the plan has been if new units come in old units will be lesving for scrap, any hints this may happen this week once the 2 new sets arrive?

 

[800001]

So the plan has been if new units come in old units will be lesving for scrap, any hints this may happen this week once the 2 new sets arrive?

Only when they enter traffic, they are a long way from entering passenger service.

 

[Paul_10]

Only when they enter traffic, they are a long way from entering passenger service.

I imagine space is going to be quite limited and there is many metrocars that look almost certain won't be seeing service again.

 

[DanNCL]

So the plan has been if new units come in old units will be lesving for scrap, any hints this may happen this week once the 2 new sets arrive?

Only when they enter traffic, they are a long way from entering passenger service.

I imagine space is going to be quite limited and there is many metrocars that look almost certain won't be seeing service again.

There’s a possibility that 4010, 4060 and 4076 may go as they’ve already been stripped of virtually anything reusable and Nexus want the avoiding line back. Scrapping those three means they only have to move 4001 elsewhere and even then only if Middle Engine Lane still isn't ready for it.
Routine withdrawals and scrapping is still a long way off though.

Space is alright now that the depot rebuild is complete. There’s space there for all remaining Metrocars plus the already delivered 555s. Each night 20 Metrocars outstable at Howdon and 8 in the tunnels at St James, so taking that into account there’s probably space for maybe up to 10 more 555s to arrive now before any more of the old fleet has to leave.

 

[Volvictof]

Space is alright now that the depot rebuild is complete. There’s space there for all remaining Metrocars plus the already delivered 555s. Each night 20 Metrocars outstable at Howdon and 8 in the tunnels at St James, so taking that into account there’s probably space for maybe up to 10 more 555s to arrive now before any more of the old fleet has to leave.

Nothing stables in St James anymore, those trains are now back to being stabled at Howdon, St James was just part of the winter plan which ended this month.

 

[hacman]

Do nexus not undertake acceptance work in the Uk?

Ive never heard of a TOC accepting a unit while the unit is abroad at the factory.

I thought units were moved to Uk, did fault free running etc, and then get acceptance.

This fleet is, for some reason, subject to two different types of acceptance. There’s the standard acceptance for traffic which happens at Gosforth and so far none of them have this yet. These units are also subject to “pre delivery acceptance” by Nexus at the Stadler site in St Margrethen. Untis 001-018 inclusive are the ones that have pre delivery acceptance according to last week’s report from Nexus to JTC.

I’d never heard of “pre-delivery acceptance” before the 555s so I wonder if this is specifically a Nexus thing.
They are after all known for making things much more complicated than they need to be.

This is quite normal, just the term "acceptance" is different here.

Units will always be given a final QA check at the factory against a pre-defined and agreed list of standards and criteria, with final testing taking part as the unit is commissioned (FFR, on-delivery inspection, etc), which takes place in the location where the unit will go into service.

Basically to reduce the chances that something is found requiring the unit to go back to the factory for rectification, and also to guard against issues during the transportation of the unit - both of which can prove costly.

 

[MetroCar4058]

I’ll be making inquiries. Not about which units are there because I don’t doubt that trust is correct, but because if Nexus have made an error in a JTC report then Nexus need to go back to JTC to correct the record. I’m sure we all agree that it’s important for public bodies like Nexus to be properly scrutinised.

I highly doubt it would have left without acceptance, if nobody at Stadler noticed then surely somebody at RailAdventure would have done. And if even they managed to miss it then it would have been caught when it was entered into Trust. If a unit did somehow manage to arrive in the UK without acceptance, it would not get as far as Gosforth.

It probably is just an error but JTC is (or was) the one place where Nexus didn’t have a choice but to say what was really happening. When the press release about axing the peak shorts was released which gave the wrong reason, Nexus got quite a telling off at the next JTC meeting, where Nexus corrected the record.
If they’re submitting incorrect reports, it makes you wonder what else may be wrong in those reports, things of much greater importance.

Missing a number from a JTC report is hardly the crime you’re making it out to be. Governance is meant to cover the high level, not the nitty gritty of a specific number. Things change very quickly, the acceptance could have been after the report was submitted etc.

Good to see deliveries are continuing, it suggests that the issue with the units is not mechanical, which is good.

 

[DanNCL]

Missing a number from a JTC report is hardly the crime you’re making it out to be. Governance is meant to cover the high level, not the nitty gritty of a specific number. Things change very quickly, the acceptance could have been after the report was submitted etc.

With respect, I’ve sat through enough JTC meetings to know how these things are treated. And yes, missing a number (or four numbers as I’ve since established) off a sheet isn’t a massive issue but you’ve missed the bigger point, which is that it makes one wonder what other things, potentially much more significant, could also be wrong in those reports.

Theres already been one incident with Nexus in recent weeks, of bigger importance, as the Shields Ferry funding announcement was supposed to wait until after the local elections because of purdah. So they’re under even tighter scrutiny than usual, this’ll get flagged up and Nexus will be expected to correct the record.

 

[wilsontown]

Nos 001 and 020 currently sat in Holgate Reception Sidings in York, in a consist with a bunch of barrier wagons and two Rail Adventure power cars.

 

[ExRes]

Nos 001 and 020 currently sat in Holgate Reception Sidings in York, in a consist with a bunch of barrier wagons and two Rail Adventure power cars.

Delivered to Pelaw Goods Loops just after midnight off 7Q56

 

[YorkRailFan]

We’re pleased to say that two more new Metro trains were delivered in the early hours of this morning, Friday 19 April.

https://twitter.com/My_Metro/status/1781311403971719533?t=vQFCws9KJxf1ilM-aCR_kw&s=19

Looking at the photos in the tweet, one of the Units is 020, I don't know what the second unit number is.