Train stopping short & doors been opened

[skyhigh]

The driver should have given the guard a 2-2 when he overran

It was a stop short, not an overrrun.

 

[BrianW]

A number of postings here show sympathy and understanding for the 'complainant', who (as far as I can tell) has not had his observations acknowledged, nor his attention thanked.
Some show understanding of crew difficulties.
'The management' are also (properly) implicated.
I like the idea of a 'no blame' culture- is there evidence that it is effective?
Joe Paying Public is, I believe, entitled to know that their safety is a matter of proper concern and has been taken seriously.
Am I right to think that this occurrence could have happened repeatedly, and could be a technical and/or staff shortcoming?
Why is there not a technical input that would render this potentially dangerous error impossible (in as much as that's ever achievable)?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Mess ups happen and it will have been reported by the staff involved before you had chance too.

Seem to me like you just wanna stick your nose in a bit tbh.

What did you expect the guard to say to you?
The driver should have given the guard a 2-2 when he overran so it’s possible from the guards position he wouldn’t have even been able to see it had overrun.

Let’s hope there is no one around with a camera and an email address whenever you make a mistake.

For a bit of balance in this, we are always reading that there are quite often guards around with the penalty fare slips and happy to get them out for simple mistakes by joe public as well when a word of warning or advice could be used, so swings and roundabouts.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

For a bit of balance in this, we are always reading that there are quite often guards around with the penalty fare slips and happy to get them out for simple mistakes by joe public as well when a word of warning or advice could be used, so swings and roundabouts.

Very fair point.

 

[skyhigh]

For a bit of balance in this, we are always reading that there are quite often guards around with the penalty fare slips and happy to get them out for simple mistakes by joe public as well when a word of warning or advice could be used, so swings and roundabouts.

Very fair point.

Except (as far as I am aware) no guards aren't trained to issued penalty fares, so it's completely irrelevant.

 

[AverageJoe]

For a bit of balance in this, we are always reading that there are quite often guards around with the penalty fare slips and happy to get them out for simple mistakes by joe public as well when a word of warning or advice could be used, so swings and roundabouts.

Daft comment considering the driver and guard will have been dealt with accordingly.

It’s no business of the public to go pursuing a witch hunt.

If a person has received a fine then it was warranted.

 

[dk1]

Except (as far as I am aware) no guards aren't trained to issued penalty fares, so it's completely irrelevant.

I was thinking that too.

 

[Bluejays]

Except (as far as I am aware) no guards aren't trained to issued penalty fares, so it's completely irrelevant.

That's what I was thinking. Certainly where I work guards don't issue penalty fares. Also not sure that vindictiveness from a small percentage of staff or customers can be used to excuse vindictiveness to other staff or customers.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I assume Hung, Drawn and Quartered.

Aha - like "tea with no biscuits" only more so...

 

[LowLevel]

Very fair point.

Albeit totally erroneous when referring to the situation in question The guard in question would never issue a penalty fate.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thankfully no one tried to get off via those doors but what's the views how NR should handle this?

By thanking you for your attention and conducting an internal investigation.

You will not find out the results of that investigation, which seems entirely proper to me.

 

[DanNCL]

The response should have been something along the lines of “we’re sorry, we will investigate and take appropriate action if required, thank you for bringing this to our attention”. They’ll not go into detail of the investigation or any action taken against staff and it would be unreasonable to expect otherwise.

If they haven’t even acknowledged your report then that is poor. If concerned that a genuine safety issue has been ignored you can escalate the complaint, but you can’t any expect detail as to the findings of an investigation nor any action taken against an employee.

- Who at NR, NTL and DfT built a station with a platform measuring just 100 metres, shorter than most of today's trains?
- Which useless transport executive only wanted to pay for a platform of just 100 metres long?

At the time Low Moor station opened the average train in that route was a 2-car pacer. If you were lucky you got a 3-car 144. Certainly nothing approaching 100m in length.

 

[dctraindriver]

For a bit of balance in this, we are always reading that there are quite often guards around with the penalty fare slips and happy to get them out for simple mistakes by joe public as well when a word of warning or advice could be used, so swings and roundabouts.

Revenue where I am, our guards tend not to worry about those things.

 

[skyhigh]

If they haven’t even acknowledged your report then that is poor.

The OP doesn't say that, they say that they're being bounced around by Northern Customer Services who are "awaiting feedback from other teams". I suspect the initial response was as you suggest, and the bouncing around is because (unreasonably IMHO) the OP is looking for feedback on what has been done internally, which isn't for them to know.

 

[357]

At the time Low Moor station opened the average train in that route was a 2-car pacer. If you were lucky you got a 3-car 144. Certainly nothing approaching 100m in length

5 car class 180?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2024 ==

I'm not saying that stopping short was unacceptable, I'm saying that opening the doors when one of them was not alongside the platform was unacceptable.
Whichever member of traincrew is responsible for opening the doors needs to be sure that the rearmost door (or with SDO the rearmost door that is being opened) is alongside a platform. The consequences for a visually impaired passenger using that door could be horrific.

So maybe tell the management who reportedly tell the guards to be elsewhere?

 

[scrapy]

Does anyone have the results of an investigation? There are a lot of assumptions being made about a stop short or guards error. Do we know for sure the train stopped in an incorrect position? ASDO issue or a faulty SDO switch are possible causes too unless these have been ruled out by the investigation?

Guard error is a likely cause but the information given is insufficient to suggest it's the only possibility so any talk about discipline should maybe wait until the results of any investigation are known.

 

[357]

Does anyone have the results of an investigation? There are a lot of assumptions being made about a stop short or guards error. Do we know for sure the train stopped in an incorrect position? ASDO issue or a faulty SDO switch are possible causes too unless these have been ruled out by the investigation?

Guard error is a likely cause but the information given is insufficient to suggest it's the only possibility so any talk about discipline should maybe wait until the results of any investigation are known.

Some people just constantly seem to want staff to get into bother or get sacked. No idea way. Jealousy maybe?

 

[Snow1964]

No information will be shared with the public and quite rightly so. It’s an internal matter.

That is different to properly updating the complainant out of politeness, rather than keeping quiet, as if they don't care about having received a complaint.

 

[Monty]

Some of the comments from the uninformed are truly alarming, I just those individuals are ever in a position of responsibility where they are in charge of the fates of others.

Back to the topic at hand, as others have stated there will be investigation and it's likely that the guard will go onto a support plan with an increased level of monitoring for a period with additional assessments. Poor guy was probably bricking it and stressing himself out so unhelpful comments from members of the public or other staff for that matter is really not helpful! As for the talk of disciplinary action and irrelevant comments about it being karma for PFNs, people need to touch some major grass.

 

[yorkie]

Does anyone have the results of an investigation?

Yes:

The photo in question looks to be at Low Moor station, in which case I can confirm the incident has been fully investigated and action has been taken.

It would be completely inappropriate to discuss on a public forum what action has been taken but in the circumstances it was reasonable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2024 ==

Some of the comments from the uninformed are truly alarming...

If anyone sees a comment they disagree with, please quote it and post a constructive response to make people more informed.

If anyone sees something that causes particular concern, and/or may be a breach of forum rules, then the post should be reported in a constructive way (with the report stating which part(s) of the post are causing concern, what the concerns are etc) through the report button, and nothing said on the forum.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2024 ==

That is different to properly updating the complainant out of politeness, rather than keeping quiet, as if they don't care about having received a complaint.

Exactly.

For a bit of balance in this, we are always reading that there are quite often guards around with the penalty fare slips and happy to get them out for simple mistakes by joe public as well when a word of warning or advice could be used, so swings and roundabouts.

This is a false equivalence, and there aren't many (or possibly even any) TOCs where Guards are authorised Penalty Fare collectors. It also makes no sense for someone to want a worse outcome for someone who merely happens to do the same job (or be categorised in any other way) as an entirely different person.

The response should have been something along the lines of “we’re sorry, we will investigate and take appropriate action if required, thank you for bringing this to our attention”. They’ll not go into detail of the investigation or any action taken against staff and it would be unreasonable to expect otherwise.....

Exactly.

I don't think anyone has said they wanted any confidential details to be disclosed, unless I missed that.

 

[43066]

For a bit of balance in this, we are always reading that there are quite often guards around with the penalty fare slips and happy to get them out for simple mistakes by joe public as well when a word of warning or advice could be used, so swings and roundabouts.

Except (as far as I am aware) no guards aren't trained to issued penalty fares, so it's completely irrelevant.

For one things guards can’t issue penalty fares. For another, there are many more instances where staff do favours/show discretion. A direct result of threads like this, where enthusiasts seem to take pleasure in reporting staff, is that staff may well decide not to tolerate the presence of photographers/spotters in future.

I personally know quite a few staff who dislike enthusiasts based on comments they’ve seen on this forum - is that really something people want to encourage?

 

[Horizon22]

Does anyone have the results of an investigation? There are a lot of assumptions being made about a stop short or guards error. Do we know for sure the train stopped in an incorrect position? ASDO issue or a faulty SDO switch are possible causes too unless these have been ruled out by the investigation?

Guard error is a likely cause but the information given is insufficient to suggest it's the only possibility so any talk about discipline should maybe wait until the results of any investigation are known.

People are not going to share the results of an internal investigation here. And frankly, it is not for people to know details about in any industry.

 

[43066]

That is different to properly updating the complainant out of politeness, rather than keeping quiet, as if they don't care about having received a complaint.

Perhaps they don’t consider it to be a legitimate complaint.

 

[TheJester]

As a slight aside, if a partially-sighted passenger had fallen it would most likely have resulted in a RAIB investigation.
The RAIB also investigate ‘near misses’. Would the TOC have been obliged to report this to the RAIB?

 

[12LDA28C]

As a slight aside, if a partially-sighted passenger had fallen it would most likely have resulted in a RAIB investigation.
The RAIB also investigate ‘near misses’. Would the TOC have been obliged to report this to the RAIB?

No.

 

[ComUtoR]

No.

No to which part ?

The investigation or it being reportable ?

Cheers in advance.

 

[james_the_xv]

If you read the RAIB report for the unfortunate injury at the GCR, you'll see the danger of passengers stepping down from trains expecting a platform that isn't there. All it would have taken is someone on their phone not paying attention and that's a potential hospitalisation (or worse).

I think the issue other users are having with this thread is OPs (and others) attitude. There's no reason for OP or the public to be informed of the outcome to this investigation. If this thread had been titled 'Train stopped short, not sure what to do' this thread would probably have taken a different, less volatile direction...

 

[Bikeman78]

So Northern would do an investigation with the train crew. I am unsure if Northern is driver or guard open - another user can hopefully advise on this.

This should then be reported to the signaller, who would report it to Northern / Network Rail controller, and then the relevant crew managers would be informed too. The crew would likely be taken off duty and the train may or may not be terminated where convenient. If it wasn't reported formally, then that's much worse for the train crew as they've tried to cover up an operational incident. That would definitely be a disciplinary action - possible dismissal - as they haven't been truthful. It isn't really anything to do with Network Rail (I presume that's what you mean by "NR"?).

Where you alighting/boarding at this station? Or continuing your journey? What happened to the train do you know?

Also, what outcome are you looking for personally from Customer Services? If they're awaiting feedback from "other teams" it probably means an investigation is ongoing. I'm not sure why you want to pursue it further (unless you're looking for sort of compensation for some inconvenience caused?) because rest assured, an internal process is ongoing.

Similar thing happened at Brussel Zuid a few weeks ago. Eight car double decker stopped with the rear two coaches and the loco off the platform. As far as I could tell, no one opened the doors on the carriages that were not next to the platform. Train was on the move after four minutes. Not sure if it was reported but the signaller would almost certainly have noticed that it hadn't cleared the points. As far as the passengers were concerned, it was no big deal.

 

[Deepgreen]

Welcome to the forum! Unfortunately not a gentle first interaction. The picture posted shows a small mis-alignment, but one which could have been nasty if anyone (not just visually-impaired) had alighted onto either the edge or the anti-trespass angular surface. Whether it was appropriate to contact CS or not is irrelevant if they are being sluggish to respond or unhelpful (my usual experience with TOCs). I wonder why the doors were released without checking (or, worse, with checking) unless the guard knew for certain that no-one would alight from the last doors. Getting the driver to move up a few feet before releasing would have been ideal IF the guard wasn't certain about the presence of anyone waiting to alight there.

 

[coxxy]

Mistakes happen.. but I guarentee driver and guard will both have been investigated and most likely on some sort of competence/development plan.

Customer service don't owe you an answer to you posting to them.